The season of goodwill and forgiveness?*

[WillowTree]

They broke the law. They filed false reports. They tried to cover it up. I'm not behind pardoning them.

As for Libby... Libby hasn't even requested one.

They've been in prison long enough. Time to pardon them.

 

[Luissa]

Should Bush pardon Scooter Libby? If I were Bush and I thought Scooter was a patriotic man I'd pardon him.

No but he should pardon Marion Jones!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Patriotism is so often the flag that scoundrels hide behind. The law is the law, patriotism is not a reason or excuse for breaking that law. Particulary when the law broken involves treason to our nation.

I understand but a sound bite from you was not what I was looking for. Are there really so few people here who can discuss complicated issues with intellect and reason rather than emotion?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I think all the pardons are silly, it is an absurd presidential right, as silly as the turkey pardoning.

Trials are by juries of peers, and this whole presidential pardon sounds suspiciously undemocratic, inthinking, partisan, and a throwback to monarchies.

you may want to read up on the history of human beings and authority, justice, law, humanity,..


the concept is beyond you? how old are you? where did you grow up? do you believe in the fundamentalist interpretation(s) of the Christian bible(s)?

you are one odd character

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

pardon those border agents too.

stick the ideological rant up your ass, please?

Who really gives a fuk about a few agents? It's all political showboating

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Juries have been known to make mistakes---I don't think it's too horribly bad to have a little executive branch recourse. Sure it will probably be abused some. It's not like the rest of democracy doesn't have it's lapses of justice.

I tried to rep you on this one. can't. so I'll acknowledge you with kudos here.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

No reason to pardon him....he already commutted his sentence....besides if he pardons him, Scooter might tell all the dirty secrets of the Bush Administration.

really? I doubt it, but I've been proven wrong a few times...


..I think.


---

Libby is an author too?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

pardons are meant to pardon injustices....it's not what it is used for it seems....

as example....

-let's say you were serving 10 years time for prohibition law breaking...but 3 years after being there in prison, prohibition was reneged....he could be pardoned if he met other qualifications...

-All of those viet nam war draft dodgers that went to Canada were pardoned as well....to help heal the wounds, the mental wounds of those that ''stayed behind'' and the divisity among our country.

-a 19 year old in jail for 15 year sentence, for having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend of 5 years...

there are injustices that deem pardoning....imho!

merry christmas Cali!

care

The point is that Bush may think Scooter's conviction(s) were an injustice. Do you not see the subjectivity of it all?

plus, what do you think is meant by "Justice is blind"?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

i'd rather see that farce of a conviction overturned

please explain...what you mean exactly. what about the conviction in a court of law was a farce?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Define patriot...

I agree with teh text book definition of 'patriot'

A patriot is someone who thinks, feels or voices expressions of patriotism, support for their country.-from wikipedia

Patriotism is commonly defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Latin, patria, and Greek patritha.[1] However, "patriotism," or the love of one's country, has come to have different meanings over time. Thus, the meaning of patriotism can be highly dependent upon context, geography and philosophy.

Although used in certain vernaculars as a synonym for nationalism, nationalism is not considered an inherent part of patriotism.[2][3] Among the ancient Greeks, patriotism consisted of notions concerning language, religious traditions, ethics, law and devotion to the common good, rather than pure identification with a nation-state.[4] [5] Scholar J. Peter Euben writes that for the Greek philosopher Socrates, "patriotism does not require one to agree with everything that his country does and would actually promote analytical questioning in a quest to make the country the best it possibly can be."[6]

 

[DiveCon]

please explain...what you mean exactly. what about the conviction in a court of law was a farce?

#1 Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was near the begining, yet kept on "investigating" for years
#2 Libbey said basically the same things each time but with different words, thats not lying
#3 a republican in a court with the jury full of democrats(like they could get anything else in DC) is not going to be impartial


the whole thing was a farce from the get go

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

#1 Fitzgerald knew who the leaker was near the begining, yet kept on "investigating" for years
#2 Libbey said basically the same things each time but with different words, thats not lying
#3 a republican in a court with the jury full of democrats(like they could get anything else in DC) is not going to be impartial


the whole thing was a farce from the get go

You can take things out of context consciously or not but stating facts outside of a context is stupid.

The context is an investigation even the President thought was waranted...or so he said publicly. The President even said anyone involved with outing a CIA source was subject to firing.

What did Bush senior say?

plus "According to testimony given in the CIA leak grand jury investigation and United States v. Libby, Bush administration officials Richard Armitage, Karl Rove, and Lewis Libby discussed the employment of a then-classified, covert CIA officer, Valerie E. Wilson (also known as Valerie Plame) with members of the press.[13][2]" -wikipedia

look at the timeline

what did Fitz say about it all? He knew Armitage was the primary source but were there others? Stop being disingenuous or drinking koolaid on this one. Libby was a source and he obstructed an investigation that could've went further.

that said...

 

[DiveCon]

You can take things out of context consciously or not but stating facts outside of a context is stupid.

The context is an investigation even the President thought was waranted...or so he said publicly. The President even said anyone involved with outing a CIA source was subject to firing.

What did Bush senior say?

plus "According to testimony given in the CIA leak grand jury investigation and United States v. Libby, Bush administration officials Richard Armitage, Karl Rove, and Lewis Libby discussed the employment of a then-classified, covert CIA officer, Valerie E. Wilson (also known as Valerie Plame) with members of the press.[13][2]" -wikipedia

look at the timeline

what did Fitz say about it all? He knew Armitage was the primary source but were there others? Stop being disingenuous or drinking koolaid on this one. Libby was a source and he obstructed an investigation that could've went further.

that said...

you seem to be drinking enough koolaid for everyone
whatever, i really dont give a rats ass anymore

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

you seem to be drinking enough koolaid for everyone
whatever, i really dont give a rats ass anymore

the truth sucks for you? the timeline and what Fitz himself had to say about Scooter.

 

[DiveCon]

the truth sucks for you? the timeline and what Fitz himself had to say about Scooter.

naw, the truth is fine
my problem is too many fuckups like you drinking the partisan koolaid that really dont care about the truth or facts as long as it does what you need politically

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

naw, the truth is fine
my problem is too many fuckups like you drinking the partisan koolaid that really dont care about the truth or facts as long as it does what you need politically

thanks for my first neg rep you POS




I love girlyman/boys when they get all riled up over bs.

you cry "I don't care" as you care all too much. hahahahahahahahahahahaha

badadoooosh!

 

[Old Rocks]

thanks for my first neg rep you POS




I love girlyman/boys when they get all riled up over bs.

you cry "I don't care" as you care all too much. hahahahahahahahahahahaha

badadoooosh!

Well, Divecon seems to have certain problems with reality

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Well, Divecon seems to have certain problems with reality

and with real men.

 

[Old Rocks]

OK, back to your original question. Does Patriotism excuse breaking the law? Does it warrant a pardon?

One would have to define how the act that was committed was patriotic. Did it actually defend the nation? Or did it just defend someone that the perpetuator thought represented the nation? On the first question, the answer would have to be an unequivical yes before the pardon was even considered. On the second, that kind of thinking, that government leaders that represent the nation are above the laws of the nation, is how nations lapse into dictatorships.

This is one of those questions with which one can see a million hypothetical situations. In the case of Libbey, he defended members of the Bush administration. His actions were to the detriment of the nation itself.

 

[Amanda]

Laws change, being a patriot doesn't. Pardon him.