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First of all, who cares about a 'Free and open Market'? How about a "Fair" market. The economic 'free for all' that has gone on in this country is the cause of the present and many past economic crisises. It is nothing but legalized thievery. The creation of wealth, the value of services and the distribution of capital are completetly unrelated in this country.
Secondly, engineering innovation is extremely important to a dynamic economy and their is no doubt it may be the most valuable commodity that any soceity may have. But engineers are not very well paid as compared to doctors, lawyers, accountants or business execs., etc...They are the bottom of the barrel of the white collar workers. The only engineering field that has seen considerable growth in the last ten years is in the IT field. Hell, that's why I switched from electronics to IT. I don't even think that IT work should be considered 'engineering', except for a tiny number of microprocessor designers and the like.
Thirdly, engineers are most closely related to labor and are part of the production process. In fact they are the leaders of production.
Fourth, the distribution of wealth in this country is based on maintaining the socio-economic order and has NOTHING to do with the real wealth that a person contributes to society. The economically advantaged taking advantage of the economically disadvantaged. Houses are wealth, cars wealth, sewers are wealth...etc. All are made by labor intensive production.
Lawyers, accountants and business people do not create wealth, they just suck it up. Doctors potentially have huge value to a society, but do not create wealth. Unfortunately, the quality of health care in this country is so poor that Doctors are only worth about one tenth of what they are paid.
The Russian empire was a capitalist country, with wealth distribution very similar to the present day U.S. It was an economic disaster. The Soviets shot & imprisoned the wealthiest and reordered the distribution of wealth in favor of labor. The Soviet Union quickly became one of the most economically powerful societies the world has ever known.
If it weren't for the rise of LIBERAL democracy, which also heavily favored labor, the Soviet Union WOULD HAVE BEEN THE GREATEST ECONOMIC SUCCES IN HISTORY.
It was only the rise of labor friendly liberalism ,that was so incredibly successful, that the success of the Soviet Union was entirely overshadowed.
If we had stayed with Free Market supply side economics from 1930s thru 1970s, we'd all be calling each other 'Comrade' right now.
Even that may not have helped. My brother worked in the mortgage industry at the time that all of these neg-am loans were being doled out, and he said that it was really fraud on the part of the mortgage companies and their employees.
They were told to "talk the number up" when asking people about their salaries, in order to make sure the buyers would qualify for the homes they were trying to get in to. And, the brokers did as they were told because a large part of their salary depended on commission.
It all comes down to unethical business practices and greed, something that has been wrong in this country for a long time.
90% of those with a net worth of $1,000,000 or more are FIRST GENERATION wealth. Only a VERY TINY MINORITY of today's wealthy were born with it.
It might be more difficult to come up with numbers showing how many of those millionaires had their endeavors financed by old money though.
90% of those with a net worth of $1,000,000 or more are FIRST GENERATION wealth. Only a VERY TINY MINORITY of today's wealthy were born with it.
Why would you open a response with that? What even secondary evidence is there at all to beleive that is a credible assumption.
This is what I keep harping about. First some have said, 'well almost all of the wealthy had their money inherited." We show you evidence otherwise. Then the excuse is 'well someone else with money backed them'. I can actually help you with some of those numbers, if you go back to the beginning of the thread and the stats I posted, one of them has the education levels of the avg. millionaire. Here's a recap:
18% Master's degrees
8% law degrees
6% medical degrees
6% Ph.D.s
That's almost 40% who are millionaires based on their education alone. All of those degrees require the better part of a decade in time commitment AFTER your typical 4 year undergrad. We reward pretty handsomly in this country for brain power if people are willing to take the time to do it.
So I'm trying to picture this financed by old money thing. What they just found someone to give them money? No strings? sure maybe some of them took out small business loans or hell maybe they did find a rich uncle who was willing to invest in a start up comapny. So what? Just being handed money is no garuntee of success or staying wealthy. Do you think rich uncle isn't going to want to see a return on his investment? Or that he's going to keep letting nephew come back to the well if he screws up?
I think the non-wealthy have a horribly skewed notion of who the rich are. they see Paris Hilton paying 50 grand for a hand bag and think that's how it is. When the fact of the mater is most millionaires are big time tight wads. Perfect example in my own family. My Dad and my Uncle are both Veterinarians and make in the low six figures. Despite that income it is a running joke in our family that my uncle never buys anything new, like ever. He is a garage sale whore, buys gnereic everything, travels a ton, but when they go to Alaska they stay in a pop up trailer for two months. We all know roughly what he made is a vet, so it's not like he can't afford any of this stuff.
The above is more the norm of the wealthy, they are meticulous budgeters and are extremely tight with their money. Most people aren't that way. Which gets back to the point that eventually people need to start taking personal ownership in this. Our behavior as a country with money as individuals is as much to blame for why we are wher we are than anything else.
this cracks me up.
And do you think when some of us complain about income inequity we're bitching about paupers whose nets worths are a mere $1 million dollars?
Posh, lad, half the people who own their homes have that kind of net worth.
We're talking about RICH people, here, not working class people who've merely done okay.
We're talking about people with annual incomes of a million, not net worths.
this cracks me up.
And do you think when some of us complain about income inequity we're bitching about paupers whose nets worths are a mere $1 million dollars?
Posh, lad, half the people who own their homes have that kind of net worth.
We're talking about RICH people, here, not working class people who've merely done okay.
We're talking about people with annual incomes of a million, not net worths.
It might be more difficult to come up with numbers showing how many of those millionaires had their endeavors financed by old money though.
Yeah, you can bust your ass and make it to the top, but not everyone can afford what it takes to do so.
I think credit has certainly helped, but in a way I can't blame some people for being too scared to borrow venture capital. It's a huge risk, and the potential losses are just too great for some to be able to handle.
Another pass the buck excuse. Have been following headlines at all. There isn't a soul that buys into this shit your spewing. I'll get to your raise BS in a second. The reason we are this mess is because a lot of people took risks they couldn't afford to take, that includes home buyers and morrgage sellers.
Raises? As my good buddy Shogun has said a 5% percent raise these days isn't gonna do shit for people. And newsflash: You don't get a raise just for ding the stuff outlined in your job functions for another year. Employees have a contract with their employer that says for doing these tasks you get paid X. If you do more than X then you can ask for a raise.
Why would you open a response with that? What even secondary evidence is there at all to beleive that is a credible assumption.
This is what I keep harping about. First some have said, 'well almost all of the wealthy had their money inherited." We show you evidence otherwise. Then the excuse is 'well someone else with money backed them'. I can actually help you with some of those numbers, if you go back to the beginning of the thread and the stats I posted, one of them has the education levels of the avg. millionaire. Here's a recap:
18% Master's degrees
8% law degrees
6% medical degrees
6% Ph.D.s
That's almost 40% who are millionaires based on their education alone. All of those degrees require the better part of a decade in time commitment AFTER your typical 4 year undergrad. We reward pretty handsomly in this country for brain power if people are willing to take the time to do it.
So I'm trying to picture this financed by old money thing. What they just found someone to give them money? No strings? sure maybe some of them took out small business loans or hell maybe they did find a rich uncle who was willing to invest in a start up comapny. So what? Just being handed money is no garuntee of success or staying wealthy. Do you think rich uncle isn't going to want to see a return on his investment? Or that he's going to keep letting nephew come back to the well if he screws up?
I think the non-wealthy have a horribly skewed notion of who the rich are. they see Paris Hilton paying 50 grand for a hand bag and think that's how it is. When the fact of the mater is most millionaires are big time tight wads. Perfect example in my own family. My Dad and my Uncle are both Veterinarians and make in the low six figures. Despite that income it is a running joke in our family that my uncle never buys anything new, like ever. He is a garage sale whore, buys gnereic everything, travels a ton, but when they go to Alaska they stay in a pop up trailer for two months. We all know roughly what he made is a vet, so it's not like he can't afford any of this stuff.
The above is more the norm of the wealthy, they are meticulous budgeters and are extremely tight with their money. Most people aren't that way. Which gets back to the point that eventually people need to start taking personal ownership in this. Our behavior as a country with money as individuals is as much to blame for why we are wher we are than anything else.
That's the problem with American society as a whole. We spend every penny we make. Most of the wealthy live very disciplined lives and somewhat BELOW their means. I know I qualified for an $800,000 home loan two years ago. I bought a $230,000 house. I could easily afford a Viper or a Land Rover, I bought a used Highlander last year instead. I'm a senior IT manager yet i buy my clothes at Gordmans, and Penny's. I've never spent more than $85 for a pair of shoes or more than $250 for a new suit. I live a $60,000/yr lifestyle even though i earn several times that....
What are these CAPITAL advantages you speak of? Please be specific.
What advantages capital has in a CAPITALIST economy, Bern?
Are you nuts?
What I do think is that the income disparity in this nation is killing it.
Working people are not making enough to keep the economy going, or haven't you yet noticed that?
We have systematically eliminated unions and collective bargaining.
We have been giving tax break to billionaires and the economy, contrary to the trickle theory, hasn't gotten healthier, it's never been sicker.
Everything you believe about this economy is wrong, dude.
Everything.
Are you? You made the assertion that capital is what's killing labor. That's pretty tough to imagine seeing as how it takes capital to hire labor.
Wrong, just plain dead wrong. Read my last post. STOP FUCKING BLAMING EVERYBODY ELSE. Why aren't people making enough to keep the economy going? Do you have any credit card debt? Statisitically there's a about 50/50 chance that you do. Almost half of the country keeps a balance on their credit cards month to month. That means they are spending more than what they have. They are living outside of their means. That is not a FACT that is in debate. We also KNOW that a lot of people took loans out on homes they had no business taking loans out on.
This income disparity is not the result of loopholes, unfair advantages, or whatever other excuse you want to make. It is in large part due to fewer people possesing the behaviors the facilitate wealth accumulation and more people being financially illiterate.
And without them spending more than they make through credit, the Economy would be shit and the wealthiest wouldn't have anyone to fleece...they gave us the easy credit, they handed out crdeit cards to the most vulnerable like it was candy to the young college students and worked out from there...
President Bush told us to go out shopping after 9/11...buy, buy, buy....was the answer to all ills, SO WE WERE TOLD.....
Thank God, my husband and I didn't listen to them....
Blame, blame, blame, blame. Everybodies a victim. Yet another reason I'm not surprised at all by the state so many find themselves.
do you think all families of 4 could live off of one income in today's world, as was the case in our previous history, even if they cut out all the gadgets?
Obviously it depends on the income. What number did you have in mind?
when i was young, my parents were dirt poor, my father was the only one working, we had food on the table and we owned a home and we owned one car....they later paid for 2 children's college, one for 4 years and one for 2 years and they managed to put pennies away for their own retirement too, with the one income of nearly nothing....
Can this be done today? one income, own a home and a car, and still manage to pay for ones healthcare and college for the kids if all the gadgets were left out of the picture?
Point being, gadgets are not the problem, but our buying power with what we make is not of the same strength that it was in the past....the working man can not afford what they once could, with one income....the excess spending of CONGRESS and the borrowing and spending of congress has devalued the dollar so much, that it takes two incomes to put a house over the head, a car, healthcare and college for the kids....
if one mishap happens then the family today has to hit the credit cards, if a mishap happened when i was a kid, meant that the wife would have to get a part time job to help with the woes....there is no room for such, now a days, because both husband and wife are already working to put the home over the head etc....so the credit cards, or borrowing has to take place....
