The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

[Mr. Shaman]

Now as I am not 250 years old, I do not know if this is the same way it always was in our political environment, that this is basically the status quo over 2 and a half centuries of bilateral politics. Maybe the internet has allowed for a more anonymous and vicous type of political commentator to flourish, and this has had an influence on more mainstream media types. Has our political arena gotten meaner? Are we as a people incapable of seeing someone holding a differing opinion than ours as holding a valid, albeit wrong, point?

Good topic!!!

I'd considered starting a similar-one, but it would-have-been (more) an effort to establish a reference-point....when all this "Civil Discourse" started. My background in engineering drives me to find that (most-recent) "default"-point....before a(ny) process goes awry/"belly-up"....in-order-to find/develop the "fix".

Typically, this process "conflicts" with the Sales-And-Marketing folks, who're too-much in a hurry to release that next, New product....rather-than (actually) dealing with field-failures/customer-complaints; i.e. providing customers what they'd paid-for. Sales-And-Marketing people are well-representative of others (within any organization), who find the nuts-and-bolts of "doing the right thing" too-laborious....not sexy-enough to keep them engaged.

It's my contention (from actual-experience/personal reference-point) that Ronald Reagan initiated the present/sophomoric "Civil Discourse"....when he responded "There you go, again.", during his debate with Jimmy Carter.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi9y5-Vo61w[/ame]

Reagan was THE first politician, I'd ever seen....at the Presidential-level....who made every-effort to marginalize his opponent....personally....rather-than (simply) disagree with his opponent's position. Ever since....politicians have (consistently) made every-effort to raise-the-bar, employing that same immature/sophomoric-tactic. More-often-than-not....and, more-recently (relatively-speaking)....that tactic has been employed to disguise/distract-from politicians' inability to think-thru any (actual) problems....let alone, come-up with a solution.

You'd be hard-pressed....to find ANY-other incident (at the Presidential-level), before the Carter/Reagan-debate....where such Reaganesque-tactics were employed. Richard Nixon was not stupid....he was scary....and, more-than-a-little paranoid....but, even HE never stooped to such immature/infantile-tactics!!!!

Sarah Palin is (merely) the most-recent DISTRACTION (Brought to you, by the NeoCons)....much like Ronald Reagan was. Hell, it's already a proven-tactic....for the benefit of those too-damned-lazy to see Politics as nothing-more than entertainment.

*

Ya' REALLY want this Country run, like a bu$ine$$?????




[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtK_YsVInw8[/ame]​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

My first comment notwithstanding, this kind of presumes there ever really was this "civil discourse" thing we've been hearing hyped as of late....If anything, the discourse, as "rancorous" as it is alleged to be today, is a far cry from that of the nation's founding.

In those days, you settled your heated disagreements by duel....How civil.

I did kind of address that in my statement about not being 250 years old.

and maybe duels are a good way to handle it, over time you lower the population of hotheaded people by basic attrition.

....And, sometimes the hot-heads eliminate younger/future-adversaries, thru attrition.

HERE
(It's the patriotic-thing-to-do.)​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I think the root cause is that people are always in the "blaming mode." Case in point, how many decades must we go back to blame our current crisis of the housing bubble and crisis or the wars we are engaged in now?

Why don't we talk about solutions instead. The Democrats that, the Republicans this, The boneaheads this. Where does that get this but inflamed rhetoric in return? We ask each other when will Congress listen to us. Maybe they are. Listen to us! Maybe we are the fools.

How can you have a solution to a problem when we are not in agreement at to what the problem is.

Our current crisis is not to blame on the housing bubble, our current crisis is the fault of our politicians. It was there actions that created the everything that happened. Funny, Bush Jr. bailed out the banks, Bush Sr. bailed out the banks. Was there an investigation after either?

There's (somewhat) a glitch in your timeline....that OTHER Texan.....between the Bushes.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2iHksmF7m4&feature=related[/ame]​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I'm just not seeing killing everywhere due to political discourse. It's just not happening. What is disturbing though is how politicians are quick to hold us in utter discontempt, accusing us a "too stupid, simpletons, dumb".

It's probably got a lot-to-do with how profitable it's become....pandering to the "too stupid, simpletons, dumb".

 

[Mr. Shaman]

My first comment notwithstanding, this kind of presumes there ever really was this "civil discourse" thing we've been hearing hyped as of late....If anything, the discourse, as "rancorous" as it is alleged to be today, is a far cry from that of the nation's founding.

In those days, you settled your heated disagreements by duel....How civil.

I did kind of address that in my statement about not being 250 years old.

and maybe duels are a good way to handle it, over time you lower the population of hotheaded people by basic attrition.

Well, there is more to the story than just duels.

Prior to the earlier parts of the last century, hardly a political campaign would go by without loose accusations of drunkenness, bastard children and other rather nefarious and dastardly acts, charged between the principals.

Today's biggest dirtballs, like Alan Grayson and Anthony Weiner, are amateur pikers in comparison.

AGREED!!!!!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAE87Q5Ype0[/ame]​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I'm not convinced that this whole 'civil discourse' thing is the root cause. I think, perhaps, the root cause of why things are so much more heated these days is our media. They have lost the ability to present anything without spin.

Ya' noticed that, huh??

ATTACKS!!!​

​

 

[peach174]

Well I don't see how the last congress can pass a Health Care Bill aganist the majority of this contry who do not want this health care bill and expect not to have heated debates.
The majority of the people did not want President Clinton's Health Care bill either but they listened to the will of the people and did not get their bill passed.
So whos fault is it?
The 111th congress still does'nt believe that the majority of this nation does not want this bill.
So they expect civility? They still refuse to believe that they lost a majority of their seats because of this.
And Republicans had better be on their toes for the next two years or they will lose their jobs also.
The majority of this nation is Independents so keep that in mind, both parties.

 

[rikules]

The shootings in Arizona have brought the concept of civility in political discussion to the front of message boards, pundit blogs, and all of the mainstream media formats....

Only because authoritarian left wing hacks, along with their useful idiot hack fellow travelers in the lamestream media, want to cower behind the dead and wounded, in order to move forward their desire to limit and outright censor the speech of all who have the temerity to oppose them.

The good news is that few people, outside of the loony left, are buying into their transparent and cynical political ploy.

and how many liberals and democrats do YOU want to shoot?

 

[rikules]

The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

My first comment notwithstanding, this kind of presumes there ever really was this "civil discourse" thing we've been hearing hyped as of late....If anything, the discourse, as "rancorous" as it is alleged to be today, is a far cry from that of the nation's founding.

In those days, you settled your heated disagreements by duel....How civil.

you forgot to blame it ALL on liberals and democrats while denouncing liberals and democrats for trying to blame innocent and sweet conservatives and republicans (like you)

 

[rikules]

The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

My first comment notwithstanding, this kind of presumes there ever really was this "civil discourse" thing we've been hearing hyped as of late....If anything, the discourse, as "rancorous" as it is alleged to be today, is a far cry from that of the nation's founding.

In those days, you settled your heated disagreements by duel....How civil.

I imagine you would have been very happy in those days....

btw...
don't forget to spend at least an hour every day target practicing with pictures of your favorite democrats and liberals

rush demands it

 

[Londoner]

Answer 1

Politicians want to move people.

The best way to do this is to appeal to their emotions -- fear of death or love of country.

Try the following statements:

1) Liberals are not just wrong on policy.

2) Liberals are going to destroy your life and your great country. They cannot be trusted. They must be removed, by force if necessary (see 2nd Amendment remedies > tyrannical government)

Statement 1 is passionless.

Statement 2 moves people. Fear and pride have the effect of "pressing" very deep, very powerful buttons.

If you fear for your life and country, you are much more likely to rush to the internet or voting booth. You are much more likely to take action.

Answer 2

Nietzsche.

The value differences we have don't offer compromise.

Either you support pro choice or you are against abortion.

When there is no compromise; when value differences are absolute, the only thing left is war.

(Tragically)

 

[Avatar4321]

You could merely stop choosing the wrong position. you dont have to kill people over it.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

Well I don't see how the last congress can pass a Health Care Bill aganist the majority of this contry who do not want this health care bill and expect not to have heated debates.
The majority of the people did not want President Clinton's Health Care bill either but they listened to the will of the people and did not get their bill passed.
So whos fault is it?
The 111th congress still does'nt believe that the majority of this nation does not want this bill.
So they expect civility? They still refuse to believe that they lost a majority of their seats because of this.
And Republicans had better be on their toes for the next two years or they will lose their jobs also.
The majority of this nation is Independents so keep that in mind, both parties.

So.....all-of-this is The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"????

How does all o' this fit-into the "conservatives'" wailing-and-gnashing-of-teeth over all the people who were pickin'-on Lil' Dumbya????

(At least we know the batteries are current, in your Distracto-Generator. )​

 

[Synthaholic]

Well I don't see how the last congress can pass a Health Care Bill aganist the majority of this contry who do not want this health care bill and expect not to have heated debates.

Liar.

 

[mdn2000]

The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

My first comment notwithstanding, this kind of presumes there ever really was this "civil discourse" thing we've been hearing hyped as of late....If anything, the discourse, as "rancorous" as it is alleged to be today, is a far cry from that of the nation's founding.

In those days, you settled your heated disagreements by duel....How civil.

I imagine you would have been very happy in those days....

btw...
don't forget to spend at least an hour every day target practicing with pictures of your favorite democrats and liberals

rush demands it

Such hatred, I thought the President called for an end to this type of Bigotry, I guess it was "wink-wink", I guess the President said "everyone" but what was meant everyone on the "Right" must be stopped and now its time to implement the "Final Solution".

I bet your at the USMB waiting for Oddball to reply so you can prove your point that its the other side that is not "Civil".

There are people and ideologies that must be defeated, how do I compromise with you when you assume I target practice everyday with an image of Obama.

 

[midcan5]

"The 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy." Alex Carey

Interesting question and not one open to an easy answer. This is my paradoxical and incomplete reply. Because civil discourse is ineffective. Why is it ineffective, because it is nuanced and complex, and people do not have time for nuanced and complex today - maybe never did. In America if you give an intelligent answer to any question you are a nerd, pinhead or elitist. The 2000 and 2004 presidential races demonstrated a piece of that puzzle with the characterizations of Gore and Kerry. But deeper down there is much more to this issue: isn't it easier to call universal healthcare 'socialism' than to debate it is a needed social good - with all the complexity that reply would muster. Isn't it easier to call taxes stealing, than to recognize that profits and salaries only grow out of a society that supports both individual and business and each other. Isn't it easier to call welfare recipients, or the unemployed, lazy than to recognize the movement of manufacturing or the outsourcing of work in a global world. And isn't it easier to call global warming a fraud when climate is complex and any change affects corporate interests and profits - who have a vested interest in denial?

I tried last night to watch Glenn Beck, I lasted longer than usual because he was discussing the power of advertising. Edward Bernays was his topic until he got into his strange associations of propaganda with George Soros. Beck is not nuanced enough to recognize that advertising, aka propaganda, works but it only works if the climate is right. No one advertises marijuana but it does OK I've heard. What was so interesting to me was how Beck could take a complex topic and then with a few carefully selected quotes jump to his usual fantasy and not see what he was doing - engaging in uncivil hyperbole and distortion.

I don't mean to say that all information is uncivil or wrong or distorted but a great deal is because it works; the people with the power to present the news or fight for or against some issue use it because it works. The invasion of Iraq should, or could stand, for the power of uncivil discourse in a climate of fear. It doesn't really matter if your opponent is right or wrong so long as your side wins.

"Corporate propaganda directed outwards, that is, to the public at large, has two main objectives: to identify the free enterprise system in popular consciousness with every cherished value, and to identify interventionist governments and strong unions (the only agencies capable of checking a complete domination of society by corporations) with tyranny, oppression and even subversion. The techniques used to achieve these results are variously called 'public relations', 'corporate communications' and 'economic education'." Alex Carey

 

[peach174]

No, our argument on abortion is about tax payer's money. You have the right to abortion but not with taxpayer money,it violates the one's who are against abortion.
I agree with your 1st answer.

 

[Avatar4321]

Obviously it's the evil corporations fault. People working together to earn a living for themselves and their families is clearly the only reason discourse is uncivil.

 

[peach174]

Well I don't see how the last congress can pass a Health Care Bill aganist the majority of this contry who do not want this health care bill and expect not to have heated debates.

Liar.

CBS poll
Poll: Most Americans Remain Against Health Care Overhaul - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

We have always had heated debates, my point is it has gotten more heated because of the Health care bill. Why do you think so many people showed up at their town hall meeting? To tell our congress reps that we did not like the bill. A lot reps were very surprised when the bill was being read to them and they had not read it themselves.

 

[Truthmatters]

Most Americans approved of what the lame duck congress just passed.