The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

[Mr. Shaman]

The root cause of the lack of "Civil Discourse"

You'll have to excuse the wannabe-"conservatives", here.

Whenever you pose a question that leaves them flat-footed....seeing-as-how Questions (in-general) are supposed to trigger an analytical-process....said "conservative"-neophytes (typically) respond in one-of-two-ways:

...Or...

(I guess it's also possible a bulk-of-them are at lunch or recess, by now.... )

*

(I digress. Possibility 3: Porky Limbaugh hasn't graced their bunkers, this early.)​

 

[mdn2000]

The Final Solution, I wonder if Liberals have thought of a Final Solution. Nazis or Fascism was not the in the 30's, it was simple human nature.

The KKK was not the problem in the 20th century, it was human nature.

How do tragedies or tyrannical governments or tyrannical groups of people constantly re-emerge century after century. We defeated Racism with the Civil Rights movement, We defeated the Nazi's, we defeated Marxism. So why the current crisis.

Its simple, its human nature that can never be defeated.

The root cause of Civil Discourse is as simple, Peach147 states it clearly. The Politicians are not working for the people, they work for themselves.

Civil discourse has reached the point it is at because the Politicians simply make themselves and their friends rich on the back of the Tax Payer.

Too much tax is the cause.

The destruction of our Industry is the cause.

Our factories forced overseas by both political parties is the cause.

Decade after Decade of no growth, no real, concrete, last forever growth is the cause.

Now we see those who have destroyed everything digging in deep for the final assault to destroy us.

Our debt reaches a new record every year. I know of not one citizen who believes charging more on our credit cards will allow us to have a secure future with a fat retirement.

Civil discourse is the direct result of the failure of Government. Now we see the Government place the blame on the public.

Its time for change, kick all the bums out, reduce the size of all government from the city to county to state to federal government.

The politicians are the root cause, the are 100% responsible.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Most Americans approved of what the lame duck congress just passed.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Well I don't see how the last congress can pass a Health Care Bill aganist the majority of this contry who do not want this health care bill and expect not to have heated debates.

Liar.

CBS poll
Poll: Most Americans Remain Against Health Care Overhaul - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

We have always had heated debates, my point is it has gotten more heated because of the Health care bill. Why do you think so many people showed up at their town hall meeting? To tell our congress reps that we did not like the bill. A lot reps were very surprised when the bill was being read to them and they had not read it themselves.

I know you have a legit source-I wont dispute it. So don't take this as me calling you a liar (I'm not). But it's from April-I have one from yesterday.

26% of people polled said health care was his best accomplishment-whereas 27% answered it was his worst. I think the country is very divided on health care, and it's become issue#1 for both sides of the aisle. Even at that it's very split down the middle. I think there's more support for it than what most people think-it's just that you hear about the people against it more (because it's human nature to be more passionate about something that you see as wrong, as opposed to something you see as right).

National (US) Poll * January 13, 2011 * Obama's Approval Bounces Back, - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

 

[Bill Angel]

This brings us to the question; Do you think that the people on the other side of the aisle can have an opinion and not be stupid/evil/greedy/facist/communist/sheeple/goverment agents? I know on some topics there are easily defined right sides and wrong sides, but most of our political discourse is on far greyer areas. Punishing murders is something everyone can agree on, but how to punish is anothering thing entirely. As an example, can reasonable people be on both sides of a debate on the death penalty?

I would agree that reasonable people can debate the wisdom of the death penalty. But it's hard sometimes to ascertain what conclusions reasonable people are going to agree upon. For example, statistics show that states WITHOUT the death penalty have had consistently lower murder rates than states that allow the death penalty. (See this article on Deterrence)

But is the death penalty about presumed deterrence of serious crime, or about imposing a suitable punishment? To be honest, I'm not convinced that "reasonable people" are going to find positions on these two issues that are broadly acceptable.

Hey... I'm just happy that we have reached a point in out society where the assertion that smoking leads to health problems like cancer is now generally accepted. I'm old enough to remember when that was not the case, and people fell back on the argument that you die when "your number is up" i.e one's death is controlled by destiny or fate rather than scientifically analyzable causes.

I don't think that we have reached that point yet in our society in terms of analyzing the value or the significance of imposing the death penalty.

You may find of interest a blog entry that I created related to this subject titled "A Provocative Juxtaposition"

 

[peach174]

Liar.

CBS poll
Poll: Most Americans Remain Against Health Care Overhaul - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

We have always had heated debates, my point is it has gotten more heated because of the Health care bill. Why do you think so many people showed up at their town hall meeting? To tell our congress reps that we did not like the bill. A lot reps were very surprised when the bill was being read to them and they had not read it themselves.

I know you have a legit source-I wont dispute it. So don't take this as me calling you a liar (I'm not). But it's from April-I have one from yesterday.

26% of people polled said health care was his best accomplishment-whereas 27% answered it was his worst. I think the country is very divided on health care, and it's become issue#1 for both sides of the aisle. Even at that it's very split down the middle. I think there's more support for it than what most people think-it's just that you hear about the people against it more (because it's human nature to be more passionate about something that you see as wrong, as opposed to something you see as right).

National (US) Poll * January 13, 2011 * Obama's Approval Bounces Back, - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

Here is another recent poll
Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports
His approval rating is becasue the majority of amercians approved of what he said at the memorial.
And polls have not changed that much about the health care bill.
The majority want reform not another government program.
How can you want another Government health care program,when the one's we got are costing way, way to much?

 

[JamesInFlorida]

CBS poll
Poll: Most Americans Remain Against Health Care Overhaul - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

We have always had heated debates, my point is it has gotten more heated because of the Health care bill. Why do you think so many people showed up at their town hall meeting? To tell our congress reps that we did not like the bill. A lot reps were very surprised when the bill was being read to them and they had not read it themselves.

I know you have a legit source-I wont dispute it. So don't take this as me calling you a liar (I'm not). But it's from April-I have one from yesterday.

26% of people polled said health care was his best accomplishment-whereas 27% answered it was his worst. I think the country is very divided on health care, and it's become issue#1 for both sides of the aisle. Even at that it's very split down the middle. I think there's more support for it than what most people think-it's just that you hear about the people against it more (because it's human nature to be more passionate about something that you see as wrong, as opposed to something you see as right).

National (US) Poll * January 13, 2011 * Obama's Approval Bounces Back, - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

Here is another recent poll
Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports
His approval rating is becasue the majority of amercians approved of what he said at the memorial.
And polls have not changed that much about the health care bill.
The majority want reform not another government program.
How can you want another Government health care program,when the one's we got are costing way, way to much?

Ramussen has been proven to be biased towards the GOP/conservatives in the past. Their polls tend to favor the GOP for example during election years-their projections are rarely within 2% of what reality shows to be. The current health care bill is not government health care-and I haven't seen any evidence that it is government run health care. If the passed the single-payer system which is what Obama initially wanted and ran on-I'd agree with you 100%-but that's not what was passed. A public option wasn't passed either. Under the bill the government is not acting as a health insurance company towards any additional Americans. Now I'm not a big fan of the bill Congress has passed-but something had to be done. Even Sarah Palin said that we needed some kind of reform when she was the VP nominee in 08.

And yes the current health care system is costing too much, but I think other things need to be cut first. Health care is too important of an issue not to address. I wouldn't have a problem with repealing the current reform if the GOP did 1 of 2 things:

-keep portions of the bill that almost everybody agrees upon (no-pre existing conditions, no lifetime cap)
-Or if they introduced their own health care reform bill, or at least health care ideas-which they have not done. There's no question health care has to be addressed in our country, and the GOP hasn't really pushed what their views are-they've only attacked the bill that got passed.

 

[Synthaholic]

No, our argument on abortion is about tax payer's money. You have the right to abortion but not with taxpayer money,it violates the one's who are against abortion.
I agree with your 1st answer.

You really don't have a clue, do you?

There are plenty of things that I do not agree should be done with my tax dollars. Tough shit. We don't get to pick and choose on an individual level. That's why we elect representatives.

 

[Intense]

First off, there are people on both sides of the isle that can discuss their ideas civilly. In fact, I will take two extremists, Ron Paul and Denis Kucinch. Civil minded individuals that sometimes are called "hacks" by members of their own party.

Now on the other hand, you are up against a mountain of nonsensical dribble that premeates politics like a stench in a porta-potty! Civility in politics, huh? What is next, civility in boxing?

Dubbed by the media as "Gentleman Jim Corbett," he was rumored to have a college education. He also pursued a career in acting, performing at a variety of theatres. He has been called the "Father of Modern Boxing" because of his scientific approach and innovations in technique. Some think that he changed prizefighting from a brawl to an art form.

On May 21, 1891, Corbett fought Peter "Black Prince" Jackson, a much-heralded bout between cross-town rivals, since Corbett and Jackson were boxing instructors at San Francisco's two most prestigious athletic clubs. They fought to a draw after 61 rounds.

The fight's outcome did much more for Corbett's career than Jackson's since reigning heavyweight champion, John L. Sullivan, drew the color line and refused to defend his title against black fighters.

The win vaulted Corbett to even greater national prominence and the public clamored for a contest between him and the great John L. Sullivan. The champion reluctantly agreed and the fight was finally set. Corbett went into rigorous training and was even more confident of his chances after sparring with Sullivan in a short exhibition match on a San Francisco stage. Despite the contest being held with both men attired in formal wear, it confirmed what Gentleman Jim had long suspected - he could feint Sullivan into knots.

On September 7, 1892 at the Olympic Club in New Orleans, Louisiana, Corbett won the World Heavyweight Boxing Championship by knocking out John L. Sullivan in the 21st round. Corbett's new scientific boxing technique enabled him to dodge Sullivan's rushing attacks, and wear him down with jabs.

Jim Corbett did not prove to be a "Fighting Champion" in today's terms, meaning he defended the title very rarely. What must be remembered is this was an era before boxing commissions and the regulation of the sport was minimal at best. Boxing was outlawed in most states so arranging a time and place for a bout was a hit or miss proposition at best. Corbett treasured his title and viewed it as the ultimate promotional tool for his two main sources of income, theatrical performances and boxing exhibitions.

James J. Corbett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mdn2000]

No, our argument on abortion is about tax payer's money. You have the right to abortion but not with taxpayer money,it violates the one's who are against abortion.
I agree with your 1st answer.

You really don't have a clue, do you?

There are plenty of things that I do not agree should be done with my tax dollars. Tough shit. We don't get to pick and choose on an individual level. That's why we elect representatives.

And when Roe vs. Wade gets reversed, the answer to you will be "tough shit".

We elect representatives to uphold the Constitution, seems the courts ruled against the Constitution, tough shit, right.

 

[Synthaholic]

Well I don't see how the last congress can pass a Health Care Bill aganist the majority of this contry who do not want this health care bill and expect not to have heated debates.

Liar.

CBS poll
Poll: Most Americans Remain Against Health Care Overhaul - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

We have always had heated debates, my point is it has gotten more heated because of the Health care bill. Why do you think so many people showed up at their town hall meeting? To tell our congress reps that we did not like the bill. A lot reps were very surprised when the bill was being read to them and they had not read it themselves.

Did you realize or care that your poll is from April 2, 2010? I doubt it.

Yeah. And it's FALSE:

Earlier this week, CNN/Opinion Research released a new poll that, at first glance, seemed to support Kibbe’s thesis. The poll found that Americans opposed the new law 50 to 43 percent (with 7 percent undecided). Yet as U.S. News & World Report’s Robert Schlesinger finds, the details of the poll results show that most Americans either support the law or oppose it because it is “not liberal enough“:

Do you oppose that legislation because you think its approach toward health care is too liberal, or because you think it is not liberal enough?”

Favor 43%


Oppose, too liberal 37%

Oppose, not liberal enough 13%


No opinion 7%
​

These poll results clearly fly in the face of conservative dogma that Americans fear big government and want to roll back the health care law because it involves too much government intrusion into the lives of the public. In fact, polling has consistently shown that wide majorities of Americans favor access to a public plan like Medicare at the very least, if not a Medicare-for-all health insurance system. Additionally, 77 percent of Americans support drug reimportation from Canada, a policy which did not find its way into the health care law thanks to political pressure exerted by the drug industry.
​

 

[mdn2000]

I know you have a legit source-I wont dispute it. So don't take this as me calling you a liar (I'm not). But it's from April-I have one from yesterday.

26% of people polled said health care was his best accomplishment-whereas 27% answered it was his worst. I think the country is very divided on health care, and it's become issue#1 for both sides of the aisle. Even at that it's very split down the middle. I think there's more support for it than what most people think-it's just that you hear about the people against it more (because it's human nature to be more passionate about something that you see as wrong, as opposed to something you see as right).

National (US) Poll * January 13, 2011 * Obama's Approval Bounces Back, - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

Here is another recent poll
Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports
His approval rating is becasue the majority of amercians approved of what he said at the memorial.
And polls have not changed that much about the health care bill.
The majority want reform not another government program.
How can you want another Government health care program,when the one's we got are costing way, way to much?

Ramussen has been proven to be biased towards the GOP/conservatives in the past. Their polls tend to favor the GOP for example during election years-their projections are rarely within 2% of what reality shows to be. The current health care bill is not government health care-and I haven't seen any evidence that it is government run health care. If the passed the single-payer system which is what Obama initially wanted and ran on-I'd agree with you 100%-but that's not what was passed. A public option wasn't passed either. Under the bill the government is not acting as a health insurance company towards any additional Americans. Now I'm not a big fan of the bill Congress has passed-but something had to be done. Even Sarah Palin said that we needed some kind of reform when she was the VP nominee in 08.

And yes the current health care system is costing too much, but I think other things need to be cut first. Health care is too important of an issue not to address. I wouldn't have a problem with repealing the current reform if the GOP did 1 of 2 things:

-keep portions of the bill that almost everybody agrees upon (no-pre existing conditions, no lifetime cap)
-Or if they introduced their own health care reform bill, or at least health care ideas-which they have not done. There's no question health care has to be addressed in our country, and the GOP hasn't really pushed what their views are-they've only attacked the bill that got passed.

ObamaCare is garbage care, a big step towards Marxism. The lousy Representatives voted on it without even reading it.

26% like ObamaCare, that is evenly split? Only in the imagination of ABC or whoever did the stupid poll.

Government is the problem, thats all, we do not need any portion of ObamaCare, we did great without it, we will do better with less government.

 

[Synthaholic]

Liar.

CBS poll
Poll: Most Americans Remain Against Health Care Overhaul - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

We have always had heated debates, my point is it has gotten more heated because of the Health care bill. Why do you think so many people showed up at their town hall meeting? To tell our congress reps that we did not like the bill. A lot reps were very surprised when the bill was being read to them and they had not read it themselves.

I know you have a legit source-I wont dispute it. So don't take this as me calling you a liar (I'm not). But it's from April-I have one from yesterday.

It's not a legit poll when it's nearly a year old.

When someone tries to pass off a poll from last April, that is not being truthful. I call those people liars.

 

[Synthaholic]

No, our argument on abortion is about tax payer's money. You have the right to abortion but not with taxpayer money,it violates the one's who are against abortion.
I agree with your 1st answer.

You really don't have a clue, do you?

There are plenty of things that I do not agree should be done with my tax dollars. Tough shit. We don't get to pick and choose on an individual level. That's why we elect representatives.

And when Roe vs. Wade gets reversed, the answer to you will be "tough shit".

We elect representatives to uphold the Constitution, seems the courts ruled against the Constitution, tough shit, right.

Sure, if that happens.

The courts do not rule "against the Constitution". They interpret the Constitution, because that's their job.

 

[Bfgrn]

The shootings in Arizona have brought the concept of civility in political discussion to the front of message boards, pundit blogs, and all of the mainstream media formats....

Only because authoritarian left wing hacks, along with their useful idiot hack fellow travelers in the lamestream media, want to cower behind the dead and wounded, in order to move forward their desire to limit and outright censor the speech of all who have the temerity to oppose them.

The good news is that few people, outside of the loony left, are buying into their transparent and cynical political ploy.

You keep spewing the 'authoritarian left' when about 1% of the left could be classified as authoritarian. It is an overwhelmingly right wing trait.

But don't let 88 different psychological studies conducted between 1958 and 2002 that involved 22,818 people from 12 different countries deter your bluster.


While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.
Robert Altmeyer - The Authoritarians

What Mao Zedong said about liberalism

Liberalism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension.

It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.

COMBAT LIBERALISM (7 September 1937), later quoted in Quotations from Chairman Mao Zedong (The Little Red Book) (1964), Ch. 24.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Here is another recent poll
Health Care Law - Rasmussen Reports
His approval rating is becasue the majority of amercians approved of what he said at the memorial.
And polls have not changed that much about the health care bill.
The majority want reform not another government program.
How can you want another Government health care program,when the one's we got are costing way, way to much?

Ramussen has been proven to be biased towards the GOP/conservatives in the past. Their polls tend to favor the GOP for example during election years-their projections are rarely within 2% of what reality shows to be. The current health care bill is not government health care-and I haven't seen any evidence that it is government run health care. If the passed the single-payer system which is what Obama initially wanted and ran on-I'd agree with you 100%-but that's not what was passed. A public option wasn't passed either. Under the bill the government is not acting as a health insurance company towards any additional Americans. Now I'm not a big fan of the bill Congress has passed-but something had to be done. Even Sarah Palin said that we needed some kind of reform when she was the VP nominee in 08.

And yes the current health care system is costing too much, but I think other things need to be cut first. Health care is too important of an issue not to address. I wouldn't have a problem with repealing the current reform if the GOP did 1 of 2 things:

-keep portions of the bill that almost everybody agrees upon (no-pre existing conditions, no lifetime cap)
-Or if they introduced their own health care reform bill, or at least health care ideas-which they have not done. There's no question health care has to be addressed in our country, and the GOP hasn't really pushed what their views are-they've only attacked the bill that got passed.

ObamaCare is garbage care, a big step towards Marxism. The lousy Representatives voted on it without even reading it.

26% like ObamaCare, that is evenly split? Only in the imagination of ABC or whoever did the stupid poll.

Government is the problem, thats all, we do not need any portion of ObamaCare, we did great without it, we will do better with less government.

You didn't read my post did you? I said 26% of people said healthcare reform was obama's best accomplishment. Not only 26% are in favor of it. I also said that 27% of the respondents said it was his worst accomplishment. It was an open ended poll.

You're either very dumb, a big liar, or didn't read my post because:

-you claim my post says 26% of people approve of the health care overhaul
-let's say you're right (you're not-I already cleared that up), what about the 27%? 26+27=54%. What about the other 46%? Are you dense enough to think that a survey doesn't add up to 100% (or within margin of era)?
-Let's forget all that. I listed 26% and 27%....how is that not evenly split?

So did you not read it, are dumb by not able to comprehend it, or lying?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The shootings in Arizona have brought the concept of civility in political discussion to the front of message boards, pundit blogs, and all of the mainstream media formats. While sides can debate and scream over who is to blame, and who's rhetoric is the cause of all the hostility seen poltical disagreements, my impression is that the current state has nothing to do with a persons beliefs, but how they sees the other sides proponents, and the motivations applied to the people on the "other side of the bench"

Listening or reading a person's position on a given topic, and thier opinion on the validity of the opposing postion on the same topic, one more often than not gets the feeling that said person not only thinks their opposites position is wrong, but they are "wrong" as a person in general. That those holding an opposing viewpoint are not just wrong on said point, but have something wrong with themselves at a basic level. The idea that a person just as rational and understanding as you are can hold an opposite position on some topic seems beyond the grasp of some people. It almost gets to the point that in order to justify your own position, some fatal flaw must be found in the person supporting the opposite, that there is no longer the concept of being "wrong" on a topic, but that there has to be some sinister underlying reason for someone to have an opinion differing from yours.

Now as I am not 250 years old, I do not know if this is the same way it always was in our political environment, that this is basically the status quo over 2 and a half centuries of bilateral politics. Maybe the internet has allowed for a more anonymous and vicous type of political commentator to flourish, and this has had an influence on more mainstream media types. Has our political arena gotten meaner? Are we as a people incapable of seeing someone holding a differing opinion than ours as holding a valid, albeit wrong, point?

This brings us to the question; Do you think that the people on the other side of the aisle can have an opinion and not be stupid/evil/greedy/facist/communist/sheeple/goverment agents? I know on some topics there are easily defined right sides and wrong sides, but most of our political discourse is on far greyer areas. Punishing murders is something everyone can agree on, but how to punish is anothering thing entirely. As an example, can reasonable people be on both sides of a debate on the death penalty?

Do you realize that it is actually possible that you have entirely missed the point? What makes you think the anger that you see everywhere is caused by the rhetoric, and not even consider the remote possibility that the rhetoric is caused by the anger? Me pointing out here that you are stupid is not upping the rhetoric and thus increasing the anger, it is simply a normal response to you complete inability to grasp the point.

The people are not angry because they disagree with the elite, they are angry because no one is listening to them.
​

 

[jgarden]

Check out how the GWB Campaign, under the guidance of Karl Rove, systematically attacked John McCain's reputation, during the 2000 Republican Primary in South Carolina!

"What Bush did to McCain in the 2000 S. C. primary"





http://www.bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?forum=8&topic_id=522&az=show_topic

 

[snjmom]

They are listening. We just want opposite things.

 

[Bfgrn]

They are listening. We just want opposite things.

Exactly!

Poll: Many voters think healthcare reform didn't go far enough

Voters who say the new health reform law was too conservative outnumber by 2 to 1 those supporting repeal, according to a poll released Saturday.

About 40 percent of respondents said the law was too timid in overhauling the nation's healthcare system, while 20 percent said they'd like to see it scrapped, according to the survey, commissioned by The Associated Press (AP).

Republicans, who voted unanimously against the health reforms, have molded their campaign message around the idea that opposition to the law comes overwhelmingly from voters who consider it an intrusion on time-honored liberties.

“When you said you didn’t want a government takeover of health care, we heard you," Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) said Saturday during the Republican's weekly radio address.

But the poll suggests dissatisfaction with the new law is much more nuanced than that, with more voters indicating frustration that the Democrats didn't go further.

Poll: Many voters think healthcare reform didn't go far enough - The Hill's Briefing Room