The right to work (for less) laws

[guno]

Think "right to Work" Laws would be a boon to states that passed it

 

[guno]

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I love right to work states.
Those who are intelligent and apply themselves make top money.
People like democrats...? Not so much.

 

[MisterBeale]

Wow, what a load.

Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shinehttp://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2013/10/08/right-to-work-laws-help-states-like-oklahoma-shine/
Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine - Forbes

What’s more, a new econometric analysis reported in the Fraser study “finds that RTW laws in the US increase economic growth by about 1.8% and employment by about 1% in the states enacting such laws.” (Writing at the American Enterprise Institute blog shortly after President Obama’s reelection, economist Mark J. Perry noted that, since 2009, RTW states created four times as many jobs as forced-union states—employment growth which, ironically, may have helped Mr. Obama get re-elected.)

As for manufacturing in particular, the authors of the Fraser study say “the scholarly literature finds that RTW laws have the effect of increasing manufacturing employment and output. Oklahoma is a particularly interesting case … The data suggest that the faster manufacturing growth observed in Oklahoma after 2001 was due, to some substantial degree, to the adoption of a RTW policy.”

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Wow, what a load.

Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine
Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine - Forbes

What’s more, a new econometric analysis reported in the Fraser study “finds that RTW laws in the US increase economic growth by about 1.8% and employment by about 1% in the states enacting such laws.” (Writing at the American Enterprise Institute blog shortly after President Obama’s reelection, economist Mark J. Perry noted that, since 2009, RTW states created four times as many jobs as forced-union states—employment growth which, ironically, may have helped Mr. Obama get re-elected.)

As for manufacturing in particular, the authors of the Fraser study say “the scholarly literature finds that RTW laws have the effect of increasing manufacturing employment and output. Oklahoma is a particularly interesting case … The data suggest that the faster manufacturing growth observed in Oklahoma after 2001 was due, to some substantial degree, to the adoption of a RTW policy.”

And this doesnt take into account the cost of living.

 

[DGS49]

The basic point of "right-to-work" laws can be seen by a quick look at two U.S. industries that have competing Union and Non-Union segments.

The steel industry used to be dominated by "integrated steel mills," which are mills that produce iron in blast furnaces, convert it to steel, and then make round and flat products. ALL of these companies (USSteel, Bethlehem Steel, J&L Steel, Midland, Inland, etc) were strongly-union, and basically all of them went bankrupt (except USS) when we forcibly entered the global marketplace.

Running in parallel with the integrated steel mills, we have dozens of "mini-mills," which buy and melt scrap, then treat it for appropriate chemical composition, then use it to produce round and flat steel products. The dominant player among the mini-mills in NUCOR, but there are many many others, most of whom are run by people who got their start in the integrated steel mills. NONE of the mini-mills is "organized." They are generally profitable; their employees make a decent buck, often get incentive bonuses, and have benefits that are comparable to good light-manufacturing companies.

There is a similar situation in the auto industry. The "Big Three" have long been under the thumb of the UAW, and all have been bankrupt, although Ford was able to avoid filing for bankruptcy by hocking all of the plant assets in exchange for cash. All have dramatically implemented automation and other productivity measures in order to minimize the deleterious effects of union wage rates, benefit costs, and, almost as importantly, work rules. Without extreme and unprecedented government intervention, both GM and Chrysler would be history.

At the same time, we have a thriving auto industry existing primarily in "right-to-work" states, with NO UNIONS, good pay and benefits, profit sharing, excellent reputations for quality, and so on.

Would you rather be a highly-paid but unemployed UAW/USW person, or an employed steel or auto worker in a RTW state?

You make the call.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Wow, what a load.

Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine
Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine - Forbes

What’s more, a new econometric analysis reported in the Fraser study “finds that RTW laws in the US increase economic growth by about 1.8% and employment by about 1% in the states enacting such laws.” (Writing at the American Enterprise Institute blog shortly after President Obama’s reelection, economist Mark J. Perry noted that, since 2009, RTW states created four times as many jobs as forced-union states—employment growth which, ironically, may have helped Mr. Obama get re-elected.)

As for manufacturing in particular, the authors of the Fraser study say “the scholarly literature finds that RTW laws have the effect of increasing manufacturing employment and output. Oklahoma is a particularly interesting case … The data suggest that the faster manufacturing growth observed in Oklahoma after 2001 was due, to some substantial degree, to the adoption of a RTW policy.”

Keep in mind that during that time period North and South Dakota benefited from an unprecedented oil boom. Carl Marx himself could have been running those states and people's wages still would have gone up.

 

[MisterBeale]

If you ask people, would they rather work for less, or have no job, most would prefer to work for less. Michigan, before it's RTW law once was the nation's basket case, had nearly the largest unemployment.

Now, it nearly leads the nation in employment, it is toward the top.

I don't hear folks complaining half as much about the government as they did about Granholm. Talk was for her ambition, an appointed position, like an ambassadorship in the presidents administration, or running for Senator, b/c with term limits, there wasn't much left she could do with her life. Why appointed? Because no one would elect her.

But with this guy they have in office now, there is talk he might go out for president. . . Long shot though he might be. That's how good of a job he did. Well, that's what some folks think. It was probably the voter initiatives and that RTW intiative, it had nothing to do with this schmuck. Voters know what they are doing.

Snyder is just another statist shill.

Kind of like you guno. lol, jk.

Fund to help Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder raises prospect of Republican presidential bid
Fund for Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder hints at presidential run - US News

 

[MisterBeale]

Wow, what a load.

Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine
Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine - Forbes

What’s more, a new econometric analysis reported in the Fraser study “finds that RTW laws in the US increase economic growth by about 1.8% and employment by about 1% in the states enacting such laws.” (Writing at the American Enterprise Institute blog shortly after President Obama’s reelection, economist Mark J. Perry noted that, since 2009, RTW states created four times as many jobs as forced-union states—employment growth which, ironically, may have helped Mr. Obama get re-elected.)

As for manufacturing in particular, the authors of the Fraser study say “the scholarly literature finds that RTW laws have the effect of increasing manufacturing employment and output. Oklahoma is a particularly interesting case … The data suggest that the faster manufacturing growth observed in Oklahoma after 2001 was due, to some substantial degree, to the adoption of a RTW policy.”

Keep in mind that during that time period North and South Dakota benefited from an unprecedented oil boom. Carl Marx himself could have been running those states and people's wages still would have gone up.

Yes, I am aware.

It still doesn't account for the prevelance of green toward the top of the chart, and the majority of blue toward the bottom.

Nor the scientific finding of the Forbs article.


Though, admittedly, economics IS NOT a hard science. The side that guno is shilling is no more correct than the RTW side. I found this quote from this Forbes article to be, well, very compelling common sense. . .

Indiana, Michigan, Now Wisconsin: What The Right-To-Work Momentum Means
Indiana Michigan Now Wisconsin What The Right-To-Work Momentum Means - Forbes

Moreover, once a state rejects compulsory unionism, that signals to investors that the redistributionists are no longer in complete control of the state and thus their capital will earn a better return. RTW, after all, usually goes hand-in-hand with other tax and regulatory policies that attract rather than repel business.

 

[Dad2three]

Wow, what a load.

Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine
Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine - Forbes

What’s more, a new econometric analysis reported in the Fraser study “finds that RTW laws in the US increase economic growth by about 1.8% and employment by about 1% in the states enacting such laws.” (Writing at the American Enterprise Institute blog shortly after President Obama’s reelection, economist Mark J. Perry noted that, since 2009, RTW states created four times as many jobs as forced-union states—employment growth which, ironically, may have helped Mr. Obama get re-elected.)

As for manufacturing in particular, the authors of the Fraser study say “the scholarly literature finds that RTW laws have the effect of increasing manufacturing employment and output. Oklahoma is a particularly interesting case … The data suggest that the faster manufacturing growth observed in Oklahoma after 2001 was due, to some substantial degree, to the adoption of a RTW policy.”

REALLY? NOT OIL/GAS BOOMS? lol


It's really, really hard - maybe even impossible - to single out the effects of this just one law.

INSKEEP: Why would that be?

WESSEL: Well, because there's simply too many other things going on at the same time. I mean, think about what happened after World War II. There was a huge shift of population and employment to the states in the South - many of which have right-to-work laws. But a lot of other things were going on. There was the spread of air conditioning, differences in the price of energy, improvements in transportation, housing price divergences, different zoning and environmental regulations, tax rates, quality of education and so on. It's really hard to tease out this one factor.

INSKEEP: OK, so it's true that right-to-work law states have grown more quickly than other states. It is impossible to say if there's any connection between the two things, though. Is there any impartial scholarship that does try to pinpoint the effect of right-to-work laws?

WESSEL: There is some. It's clear that states with right-to-work laws have lower rates of union membership and weaker unions and tend to have lower wages. Now, there's a long academic literature trying to identify the effects of right-to-work laws. In a 1998 peer-reviewed article by Thomas Holmes of the University of Minnesota, he described the academic evidence on the proposition that pro-business policies help build jobs as mixed. His comparison of states, some with right-to-work laws, some without, found substantially more manufacturing job growth in those with right-to-work laws. But he stressed that his results don't mean that adopting such a law and doing nothing else would do much for employment. More recent research suggests his estimates might be overstated. In a 2009 analysis, by a Hofstra professor, found little or no gain in employment or growth in states with right-to-work laws.

Examining Right-To-Work Laws Impact On Income And Economic Growth NPR

The Truth about “Right to Work” Laws

Also, the frequent claim by proponents that right to work laws will encourage
more economic development is highly questionable
.http://umaine.edu/ble/files/2011/01/RighttoWork_Laws.pdf




"usinesses prefer locating in states where costs are low and rules are lax — something I think we all knew already. Of course that's what businesses prefer. But it says literally nothing at all about whether the United States as a whole would have higher or lower growth if every state either did or didn't have right-to-work laws."


A 2011 study by the labor-backed Economic Policy Institute found that wages and benefits are lower in right-to-work states than in non-right-to-work states. Oklahoma has actually seen a reversal of the initial growth in manufacturing jobs since its right-to-work law passed in 2001. The EPI report found that in the cases of "higher-tech manufacturing, to 'knowledge' sector jobs, or to service industries dependent on consumer spending in the local economy—there is reason to believe that right-to-work laws may actually harm a state's economic prospects."

Right-to-Work Laws Explained Mother Jones

 

[Dad2three]

The basic point of "right-to-work" laws can be seen by a quick look at two U.S. industries that have competing Union and Non-Union segments.

The steel industry used to be dominated by "integrated steel mills," which are mills that produce iron in blast furnaces, convert it to steel, and then make round and flat products. ALL of these companies (USSteel, Bethlehem Steel, J&L Steel, Midland, Inland, etc) were strongly-union, and basically all of them went bankrupt (except USS) when we forcibly entered the global marketplace.

Running in parallel with the integrated steel mills, we have dozens of "mini-mills," which buy and melt scrap, then treat it for appropriate chemical composition, then use it to produce round and flat steel products. The dominant player among the mini-mills in NUCOR, but there are many many others, most of whom are run by people who got their start in the integrated steel mills. NONE of the mini-mills is "organized." They are generally profitable; their employees make a decent buck, often get incentive bonuses, and have benefits that are comparable to good light-manufacturing companies.

There is a similar situation in the auto industry. The "Big Three" have long been under the thumb of the UAW, and all have been bankrupt, although Ford was able to avoid filing for bankruptcy by hocking all of the plant assets in exchange for cash. All have dramatically implemented automation and other productivity measures in order to minimize the deleterious effects of union wage rates, benefit costs, and, almost as importantly, work rules. Without extreme and unprecedented government intervention, both GM and Chrysler would be history.

At the same time, we have a thriving auto industry existing primarily in "right-to-work" states, with NO UNIONS, good pay and benefits, profit sharing, excellent reputations for quality, and so on.

Would you rather be a highly-paid but unemployed UAW/USW person, or an employed steel or auto worker in a RTW state?

You make the call.

Yeah, it was unions, NOT bad policy by the big 3 that caused the problems they had (bad vehicles and SUV driving their growth?? lol)

The rights race to the bottom continues. Shocking

 

[Dad2three]

‘Right-to-work’ laws hold down wages but don’t create jobs


Kentucky Center for Economic Policy.

The report looks at the most careful previous studies on RTW that show the law is not associated with an increase in jobs, but with lower wages and benefits for all workers.

Research comparing the experience of right-to-work and non-right-to-work states is clear that the law isn’t about what’s good for workers. These laws don’t create new jobs ? whether it’s in manufacturing or other business sectors ? and they undermine unions’ ability to fight for workers.

The KCEP report highlights several studies on RTW, including:

• The Economic Policy Institute (EPI) found “right to work” laws had no impact on employment growth and manufacturing jobs in Oklahoma after it adopted RTW in 2001.

• Wages and benefits are worse in RTW states, and Kentucky wages are already low. All workers in RTW states, union and non-union, make about $1,500 less per year than in non-RTW states.

• A University of Kentucky study says a lack of education and innovation, not business climate and right to work, is what’s holding the state back.


Right-to-work laws hold down wages but don t create jobs - Richmond Register Columns


On the right-to-work side, the big myth is that economic growth in states with the law is higher. Studies sponsored by the Mackinac Center, a think tank in Midland, Michigan, that favors right-to-work, conclude as much. But it’s not necessarily so. The Mackinac studies don’t disentangle the effect of right-to-work laws from other factors, such as a housing bust, rapid population growth (a feature of many Sunbelt states) or a robust energy sector.

Take Oklahoma, which became a right-to-work state in 2001. It has outperformed much of the country in recent years; its unemployment level, at 6.1 percent, bests the national rate of 8.5 percent. But joblessness in Colorado, Missouri and New Mexico -- Oklahoma’s non-right-to-work neighbors -- are also well below the national average.


Right-to-Work Laws Waste Time for Politicians and Unions View - Bloomberg Business

 

[MisterBeale]

Wow, what a load.

Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine
Right-To-Work Laws Help States Like Oklahoma Shine - Forbes

What’s more, a new econometric analysis reported in the Fraser study “finds that RTW laws in the US increase economic growth by about 1.8% and employment by about 1% in the states enacting such laws.” (Writing at the American Enterprise Institute blog shortly after President Obama’s reelection, economist Mark J. Perry noted that, since 2009, RTW states created four times as many jobs as forced-union states—employment growth which, ironically, may have helped Mr. Obama get re-elected.)

As for manufacturing in particular, the authors of the Fraser study say “the scholarly literature finds that RTW laws have the effect of increasing manufacturing employment and output. Oklahoma is a particularly interesting case … The data suggest that the faster manufacturing growth observed in Oklahoma after 2001 was due, to some substantial degree, to the adoption of a RTW policy.”

REALLY? NOT OIL/GAS BOOMS? lol


It's really, really hard - maybe even impossible - to single out the effects of this just one law.

INSKEEP: Why would that be?

WESSEL: Well, because there's simply too many other things going on at the same time. I mean, think about what happened after World War II. There was a huge shift of population and employment to the states in the South - many of which have right-to-work laws. But a lot of other things were going on. There was the spread of air conditioning, differences in the price of energy, improvements in transportation, housing price divergences, different zoning and environmental regulations, tax rates, quality of education and so on. It's really hard to tease out this one factor.

INSKEEP: OK, so it's true that right-to-work law states have grown more quickly than other states. It is impossible to say if there's any connection between the two things, though. Is there any impartial scholarship that does try to pinpoint the effect of right-to-work laws?

WESSEL: There is some. It's clear that states with right-to-work laws have lower rates of union membership and weaker unions and tend to have lower wages. Now, there's a long academic literature trying to identify the effects of right-to-work laws. In a 1998 peer-reviewed article by Thomas Holmes of the University of Minnesota, he described the academic evidence on the proposition that pro-business policies help build jobs as mixed. His comparison of states, some with right-to-work laws, some without, found substantially more manufacturing job growth in those with right-to-work laws. But he stressed that his results don't mean that adopting such a law and doing nothing else would do much for employment. More recent research suggests his estimates might be overstated. In a 2009 analysis, by a Hofstra professor, found little or no gain in employment or growth in states with right-to-work laws.

Examining Right-To-Work Laws Impact On Income And Economic Growth NPR

The Truth about “Right to Work” Laws

Also, the frequent claim by proponents that right to work laws will encourage
more economic development is highly questionable
.http://umaine.edu/ble/files/2011/01/RighttoWork_Laws.pdf




"usinesses prefer locating in states where costs are low and rules are lax — something I think we all knew already. Of course that's what businesses prefer. But it says literally nothing at all about whether the United States as a whole would have higher or lower growth if every state either did or didn't have right-to-work laws."


A 2011 study by the labor-backed Economic Policy Institute found that wages and benefits are lower in right-to-work states than in non-right-to-work states. Oklahoma has actually seen a reversal of the initial growth in manufacturing jobs since its right-to-work law passed in 2001. The EPI report found that in the cases of "higher-tech manufacturing, to 'knowledge' sector jobs, or to service industries dependent on consumer spending in the local economy—there is reason to believe that right-to-work laws may actually harm a state's economic prospects."

Right-to-Work Laws Explained Mother Jones

I'll admit, there may be some truth in what you say. However, the fact of the matter is, forcing ANYONE, to involuntarily give over of their paycheck in order to work, is, philosophically wrong.

Is there anything wrong with unions? Hell no, I support them whole heatedly. I am angry with the union busting activities of corporations such as Walmart. I find it very unAmerican. However, I think it is also unAmerican to FORCE people to belong to unions against their will. Anything that is done that is not voluntary is totalitarian. That is all there is to it.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Is there anything wrong with unions? Hell no, I support them whole heatedly..

me too we need more unions to violently raise wages and make us even less competitive with China and India and Brazil!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Anything that is done that is not voluntary is totalitarian. That is all there is to it.

actually unions rely 100% on govt violence to get higher wages!! Did you know that?

 

[Anathema]

I'll admit, there may be some truth in what you say. However, the fact of the matter is, forcing ANYONE, to involuntarily give over of their paycheck in order to work, is, philosophically wrong.

Is there anything wrong with unions? Hell no, I support them whole heatedly. I am angry with the union busting activities of corporations such as Walmart. I find it very unAmerican. However, I think it is also unAmerican to FORCE people to belong to unions against their will. Anything that is done that is not voluntary is totalitarian. That is all there is to it.

They're not giving that money away. It's an investment in the Representation thst Union provides.

Right to Work also means Right to be Fired without cause. I guarantee you no Union.Steward or Local is going to help ANY non - represented employee. Hell, we'll hang them out to dry.

 

[MisterBeale]

Is there anything wrong with unions? Hell no, I support them whole heatedly..

me too we need more unions to violently raise wages and make us even less competitive with China and India and Brazil!!

There is nothing wrong with any work place that wants to non-violently, voluntarily unionize. However, in RTW states, people have the right to not join unions. That is how it should be. It is called freedom.

 

[MisterBeale]

Anything that is done that is not voluntary is totalitarian. That is all there is to it.

actually unions rely 100% on govt violence to get higher wages!! Did you know that?

Balderdash. Employees have a choice whether to unionize or not unionize. As far as scabs? Well, that is another story. Civil pressure is, I will admit, often applied. That is not officially sanctioned government violence. If you are a scab, and no one will talk to you, sell you food, sell you cable services, give you access to water or electricity, etc., because all of these industries may be unionized, then that is a risk YOU take by crossing a picket line or refusing to join a Union. Collective bargaining is the strength of the masses.

Apparently, you need to learn how the free market and voluntarism works. Principles of non-violence work both ways.

 

[MisterBeale]

I'll admit, there may be some truth in what you say. However, the fact of the matter is, forcing ANYONE, to involuntarily give over of their paycheck in order to work, is, philosophically wrong.

Is there anything wrong with unions? Hell no, I support them whole heatedly. I am angry with the union busting activities of corporations such as Walmart. I find it very unAmerican. However, I think it is also unAmerican to FORCE people to belong to unions against their will. Anything that is done that is not voluntary is totalitarian. That is all there is to it.

They're not giving that money away. It's an investment in the Representation thst Union provides.

Right to Work also means Right to be Fired without cause. I guarantee you no Union.Steward or Local is going to help ANY non - represented employee. Hell, we'll hang them out to dry.

As well the Unions should. However, it should still be the choice, of any workplace, whether or not to unionize.

My son's mother works at a Japanes, non-Unionized shop. If they Unionized, the plant would leave. The plant was non-Union even before the RTW referendum. Plants like this one were one of the reasons why the RTW referendum passed. Foreign corporations and non-unionized workplaces were killing competition anyway.

Stores like Kroger and Meijer, they are all Union. Walmart? Not so. So why not have a RTW law? It lessens the power of cross union pressure of industries that, for what ever reason, aren't unionized across the board, making competition unfair. This increases competition, gives workers a true voice on whether they want their work place unionized, and brings in more business.


This wasn't a law passed by the politicians, this was a law, passed by the people, in the State where unions were born. What else is there to say? Unions are still respected, and still powerful. They are still loved. But they need to EARN their respect. They need to stay legitimate, and cut ties with organized crime if they want to maintain the respect and support of the people now.

That is all there is to this issue. We are sick of the waste and the corruption.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Civil pressure is, I will admit, often applied. That is not officially sanctioned government violence. .

dear, if the owners don't recognize the union, bargin with it in good faith, and obey strike rules govt liberals come with guns. Do you understand now??