The Liberty

[patrickcaturday]

I have tried to get people interested in this subject before, unfortunatly most of the time on the Israel/Palestine thread it rapidly devoles into name calling and twisting of the facts. I would like to deal with it in an adult manner, that does not mean that I do not want good, healthy, strong and honest debate, it means that I want to deal with it without all of the garbage !!! In order that I cannot be accused of flying under a false flag I should state that in my opinion The Liberty was deliberty attacked by the Israelis.
I beleive that the documentary that I am about to expose you to from the BBC will in the years ahead go down as a part of the true history of that time. Please watch it and then I would welcome your comments.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjOH1XMAwZA]"USS Liberty: Dead In The Water" (BBC Documentary 2002) - YouTube[/ame]

Feel free to add other evidence if you wish !!!

 

[oldfart]

I would like to deal with it in an adult manner, that does not mean that I do not want good, healthy, strong and honest debate, it means that I want to deal with it without all of the garbage !!! In order that I cannot be accused of flying under a false flag I should state that in my opinion The Liberty was deliberty attacked by the Israelis.

I'm glad you brought this topic up again. I vividly remember the event, and did not understand at the time why the United States did not take more decisive action. This was not like the Gulf of Tonkin incident, where all the evidence of attack on U S naval units turned out to be false. thirty four Americans dies and 171 were wounded.

While there is a lot of debate, the official reports and document lead me to agree that the attack was premeditated and intentional. My best guess is that at that point in the Six Day War, the Israelis were preparing for a last ditch nuclear attack if their lines broke and felt they had to protect that operation at all costs, even from the United States. I believe they had some fear that with an American carrier in the area, the United States might decide to intercept such an attack if the United States deemed the target too sensitive (like Cairo or Damascus). The Liberty was certainly a potential threat to their communications security. This is the only motive that makes sense to me for taking such a risk, and explains the subsequent behavior of both the American and Israeli governments. The Israeli's claimed it was a case of misidentification (an incredulous claim given the crew's testimony) and offered financial compensation. LBJ accepted the explanation with unseemly haste.

I'm sure this is going to be debated for decades more, but I don't think there is much evidence which will come out to make it any clearer.

 

[Intense]

I have tried to get people interested in this subject before, unfortunatly most of the time on the Israel/Palestine thread it rapidly devoles into name calling and twisting of the facts. I would like to deal with it in an adult manner, that does not mean that I do not want good, healthy, strong and honest debate, it means that I want to deal with it without all of the garbage !!! In order that I cannot be accused of flying under a false flag I should state that in my opinion The Liberty was deliberty attacked by the Israelis.
I beleive that the documentary that I am about to expose you to from the BBC will in the years ahead go down as a part of the true history of that time. Please watch it and then I would welcome your comments.

"USS Liberty: Dead In The Water" (BBC Documentary 2002) - YouTube

Feel free to add other evidence if you wish !!!

Have you read the book?

 

[patrickcaturday]

I have tried to get people interested in this subject before, unfortunatly most of the time on the Israel/Palestine thread it rapidly devoles into name calling and twisting of the facts. I would like to deal with it in an adult manner, that does not mean that I do not want good, healthy, strong and honest debate, it means that I want to deal with it without all of the garbage !!! In order that I cannot be accused of flying under a false flag I should state that in my opinion The Liberty was deliberty attacked by the Israelis.
I beleive that the documentary that I am about to expose you to from the BBC will in the years ahead go down as a part of the true history of that time. Please watch it and then I would welcome your comments.

"USS Liberty: Dead In The Water" (BBC Documentary 2002) - YouTube

Feel free to add other evidence if you wish !!!

Have you read the book?

Which book are you refering to ???

 

[Intense]

USS Liberty Memorial

 

[patrickcaturday]

USS Liberty Memorial

No I have not. I will have to see if my library has a copy, but I have read some of his writings on the net and I find them very good.

 

[Intense]

I highly recommend the read. Just a thought, there is a lot of blame to go around, both here, and in Israel. Compound Breakdowns were the cause here, including Denial, Obstruction, failed Logistics. If that Book doesn't have the answer to any question, it's because it hasn't been asked yet. It is Exhaustive in detail.

 

[sealadaigh]

I would like to deal with it in an adult manner, that does not mean that I do not want good, healthy, strong and honest debate, it means that I want to deal with it without all of the garbage !!! In order that I cannot be accused of flying under a false flag I should state that in my opinion The Liberty was deliberty attacked by the Israelis.

I'm glad you brought this topic up again. I vividly remember the event, and did not understand at the time why the United States did not take more decisive action. This was not like the Gulf of Tonkin incident, where all the evidence of attack on U S naval units turned out to be false. thirty four Americans dies and 171 were wounded.

While there is a lot of debate, the official reports and document lead me to agree that the attack was premeditated and intentional. My best guess is that at that point in the Six Day War, the Israelis were preparing for a last ditch nuclear attack if their lines broke and felt they had to protect that operation at all costs, even from the United States. I believe they had some fear that with an American carrier in the area, the United States might decide to intercept such an attack if the United States deemed the target too sensitive (like Cairo or Damascus). The Liberty was certainly a potential threat to their communications security. This is the only motive that makes sense to me for taking such a risk, and explains the subsequent behavior of both the American and Israeli governments. The Israeli's claimed it was a case of misidentification (an incredulous claim given the crew's testimony) and offered financial compensation. LBJ accepted the explanation with unseemly haste.

I'm sure this is going to be debated for decades more, but I don't think there is much evidence which will come out to make it any clearer.

i think when you begin speculating as to motive, you allow people to lose sight of the facts. there are plenty of possible motives.

the facts though are pretty clear. this is what israel expects you to believe was a case of mistaken identity. a U.S. naval that at the time was probably one of the most identifiable vessels on the high seas and which had been identified earlier in the day as a U.S naval vessel was later observed in numerous, low level fly bys by israeli observation planes and identified by as an egyptian freaigtor by highly trained pilots on a clear june day on the mediterranean, despite the fact it was flying an american flag and had 5 foot high identifying letters on the hull.

this vessel was attacked by israeli jets which had no identifying markings on them at the time, which is hardly coincidental.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

 

[editec]

YUP.

The Liberty was attacked by Isreal, without doubt.

Nobody is entirely sure why, but the fact that it was done is pretty apparent based on the testimony of the people who were there.

 

[LoneLaugher]

RGS,

Did we "hate" the Japanese at the time? Were we fond of the Vietnamese during the conflict?

The problem here is not lingering animosity......it is that there NEVER WAS ANY to begin with.

Do you see the difference?

 

[sealadaigh]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

i don't equate seeking justice for dead and injured sailors in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NAVY with hating jews and am not so willing to sweep those sailors under the rug as some people seem to be...semper fi.

i do not see anyone prohibiting you from exercising your first amendment rights to hate people based upon their ethnicity.

exactly what is the time limit for seeking justice for dead americans in the USMC, "gunny"?

 

[oldfart]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

No difference. We can play friends with everyone if we want to. I for one think it's dangerous to forget.

 

[patrickcaturday]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

You know Gunny I worked for the Red Cross as a SAF Specialist for 2 years at Camp Pendelton and in all that time I never heard any Marine so disrespect the troops. It really is just a simple matter of Justice for American SVCMN

 

[Intense]

There are a lot of factors here that you are failing to take into consideration, they are detailed in the book. Both the US and Israel bear responsibility for what happened. The Liberty was a Spy Ship. What was the Date of the Attack, People? What else was going on then? Who witnessed the attack? Reports of a US Sub, right there, which remained in cognito. What caused the delay of the Fleet Aid? Why was the Fighter Squadron assigned to intercept recalled to It's Carrier, delaying our response? Why were they armed with Nukes? Why did the Joint Chief's of Staff deny that we had any ships in the area, when asked by Israel? Why did the US deny that we had any ships in those waters? What ship did Israel claim to mistake the Liberty for? What was the USS Liberty doing directly off the Coast of Israel during a War? Many factors contributed to the ClusterFuck, just saying.

 

[strollingbones]

There are a lot of factors here that you are failing to take into consideration, they are detailed in the book. Both the US and Israel bear responsibility for what happened. The Liberty was a Spy Ship. What was the Date of the Attack, People? What else was going on then? Who witnessed the attack? Reports of a US Sub, right there, which remained in cognito. What caused the delay of the Fleet Aid? Why was the Fighter Squadron assigned to intercept recalled to It's Carrier, delaying our response? Why were they armed with Nukes? Why did the Joint Chief's of Staff deny that we had any ships in the area, when asked by Israel? Why did the US deny that we had any ships in those waters? What ship did Israel claim to mistake the Liberty for? What was the USS Liberty doing directly off the Coast of Israel during a War? Many factors contributed to the ClusterFuck, just saying.

the liberty was a spy ship and the rumor has always been that the israeli's were simply killing the pows....

of course the government denied having ships in the area....

there was no 'mistaken' identity....the liberty was flying a us flag...and the ships did not look alike...

 

[Desperado]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

Yes it is very different.
At the time neither Japan nor Vietnam claimed to be our friend and ally.

 

[Intense]

There are a lot of factors here that you are failing to take into consideration, they are detailed in the book. Both the US and Israel bear responsibility for what happened. The Liberty was a Spy Ship. What was the Date of the Attack, People? What else was going on then? Who witnessed the attack? Reports of a US Sub, right there, which remained in cognito. What caused the delay of the Fleet Aid? Why was the Fighter Squadron assigned to intercept recalled to It's Carrier, delaying our response? Why were they armed with Nukes? Why did the Joint Chief's of Staff deny that we had any ships in the area, when asked by Israel? Why did the US deny that we had any ships in those waters? What ship did Israel claim to mistake the Liberty for? What was the USS Liberty doing directly off the Coast of Israel during a War? Many factors contributed to the ClusterFuck, just saying.

the liberty was a spy ship and the rumor has always been that the israeli's were simply killing the pows....

of course the government denied having ships in the area....

there was no 'mistaken' identity....the liberty was flying a us flag...and the ships did not look alike...

No argument there. Still the US adamantly denied it was our ship. There is also a claim that a US Sub witnessed the whole encounter, SB. It was a fucked up situation in circumstance, made worse by how most related Parties either acted, or failed to act. My only argument is shared responsibility. Plenty of first hand Eye-Witness account, in the Book.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I would like to deal with it in an adult manner, that does not mean that I do not want good, healthy, strong and honest debate, it means that I want to deal with it without all of the garbage !!! In order that I cannot be accused of flying under a false flag I should state that in my opinion The Liberty was deliberty attacked by the Israelis.

I'm glad you brought this topic up again. I vividly remember the event, and did not understand at the time why the United States did not take more decisive action. This was not like the Gulf of Tonkin incident, where all the evidence of attack on U S naval units turned out to be false. thirty four Americans dies and 171 were wounded.

While there is a lot of debate, the official reports and document lead me to agree that the attack was premeditated and intentional. My best guess is that at that point in the Six Day War, the Israelis were preparing for a last ditch nuclear attack if their lines broke and felt they had to protect that operation at all costs, even from the United States. I believe they had some fear that with an American carrier in the area, the United States might decide to intercept such an attack if the United States deemed the target too sensitive (like Cairo or Damascus). The Liberty was certainly a potential threat to their communications security. This is the only motive that makes sense to me for taking such a risk, and explains the subsequent behavior of both the American and Israeli governments. The Israeli's claimed it was a case of misidentification (an incredulous claim given the crew's testimony) and offered financial compensation. LBJ accepted the explanation with unseemly haste.

I'm sure this is going to be debated for decades more, but I don't think there is much evidence which will come out to make it any clearer.

All of the official reports concluded that attack was a case of mistaken identity, although some concluded it was caused by culpable negligence.

A US Naval Court of Inquiry concluded that "available evidence combines to indicate ... (that the attack was) a case of mistaken identity."

CIA memorandums stated, "The attack was not made in malice toward the U.S. and was by mistake, but the failure of the IDF Headquarters and the attacking aircraft to identify the Liberty and the subsequent attack by torpedo boats were both incongruous and indicative of gross negligence."

Clark Clifford, LBJ's special representative on this issue, after reviewing all available information stated, "The unprovoked attack on the Liberty constitutes a flagrant act of gross negligence for which the Israeli Government should be held completely responsible, and the Israeli military personnel involved should be punished."

In testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara, stated, "I simply want to emphasize that the investigative report does not show any evidence of a conscious intent to attack a U.S. vessel."

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Years later in his memoirs, McNamara stated he still held that opinion.

The captain of the Liberty, William L. McGonagle told the Naval Court he had believed the attack was not an intentional attack, but an error by the Israelis.

The only member of the government that believed that it was an intentional attack on a US ship was Secretary of State Dean Rusk, but he admitted he had never read any of the investigative reports so it is not clear what he based his opinion on.

 

[The Rabbi]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

You know Gunny I worked for the Red Cross as a SAF Specialist for 2 years at Camp Pendelton and in all that time I never heard any Marine so disrespect the troops. It really is just a simple matter of Justice for American SVCMN

Why are you not concerned about Afghan troops killing American servicemen as we speak right now? Or is that "different"?

Anytime someone brings up the Liberty on a forum, it is the prelude to more anti-semitism. Several inquiries held the Israelis blameless. It is the stuff of conspiracy theories and the ugly hand of anti-semitism.