The Liberty

[sealadaigh]

We may not be at all. Just adding perspective. It was a compound cluster fuck. It's all in the book.

Adding perspective is all well and good and if that is what people want to dicuss OK, but I would be remiss if I did not say that some times adding perspective can be a convenient cover for not reaching any decisions. I really do appreiciate everybodies involvement in this thread but I think it is time to start narrowing our field of thought back to the original question. There has been a lot of evidence that has been presented but no conclusions. I would suggest that people go back and take the time to watch the documentary again and then I would like to hear weather or not people think the attack was deliberate.

i think what you mean to say rather tha "deliberate" is "a case of mistaken identity."

i think they knew it was a U.S Naval vessel, and i have some real life experience with target acquisition.

 

[sealadaigh]

There have been about 3 full investigations. All of them concluded that it was not deliberate.

I am not the one expressing outrage about an incident 35 years ago. I wonder why people continuously bring it up. It cannot be out of concern for US servicemen. If so, there are many more pressing concerns, like the Afghans killing US personnel I mentioned. It cannot be because the incident was covered up. It is all over the place in books and articles. It cannot be because no one has ever brought it up on USMB. This is like the 4th thread on the topic I recall.
So what is it? Hmm. Claims the Israelis masterminded it and it was deliberate, despite evidence to the contrary. Calls for cutting off aid to Israel. Claims that the Zionist-controlled media is covering. Claims that the Israel lobby has too much power in the U.S.
Yup. All of that fits the bill of anti-semitism all right.

people bring it up because these sailors deserve the justice of a full congressional investigation and it is becoming too late for that...and they deserve the truth!!!

i don't think you have any right to question or impugn my or anyone else's concern for our servicemen.

of course israel "masterminded" it and of course it was deliberate. israel doesn't deny that. they were caught redhanded.

i have seen no one on this thread call for cutting off all aid to israel, nor that the zionists controls the media, nor that the israeli lobby has too much power; nor have i read anything that is even remotely anti-semitic. or the most part ews aren't even mentioned by those who seek justice and truth for these sailors.

what fits the bill is that sooner or later when any discussion of the USS Liberty takes place, someone will play the "anti-semitism" card, as they have done with the Liberty survivors, falsely accusing them, and adding extraordinary insult to the injuries they have already suffered.

if you really want to discuss american jewish involvement in this matter and anti-semitism, perhaps you should start a thread on that. i am sure you will get plenty of takers. i think it would be interesting to see such a discussion in the cleaan debate zone.

 

[Desperado]

There has been a lot of evidence that has been presented but no conclusions. I would suggest that people go back and take the time to watch the documentary again and then I would like to hear weather or not people think the attack was deliberate.[/B][/COLOR]

It was a deliberate attack and not a case of mistaken identity.
There is no way an impartial observer can reach any other conclusion.
Even if you give Israel the benefit of the doubt on the air attack, once the Israeli Patrol boats joined the attack, there is absolutely no way Israel can claim this attack was due to mistaken identity.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There has been a lot of evidence that has been presented but no conclusions. I would suggest that people go back and take the time to watch the documentary again and then I would like to hear weather or not people think the attack was deliberate.[/B][/COLOR]

It was a deliberate attack and not a case of mistaken identity.
There is no way an impartial observer can reach any other conclusion.
Even if you give Israel the benefit of the doubt on the air attack, once the Israeli Patrol boats joined the attack, there is absolutely no way Israel can claim this attack was due to mistaken identity.

I disagree. There is no way an impartial observer looking at all the facts can fail to conclude that it was a case of mistaken identity.

1. There is no plausible explanation for why Israel would knowingly attack a US Naval vessel. Even if Liberty were a spy ship, with large build ups of US and USSR military forces in the eastern Mediterranean, everyone would expect to be spied on by everyone else and no sensitive Israeli communications would have gone out unencrypted, so the Liberty at that point - the war with Egypt was already over - would have posed no possible threat to Israel.

2. The Israelis were hunting for an Egyptian ship and according to to a CIA memorandum dated June 13, 1967 but not declassified until 2006,

Although the Liberty is some 200 feet longer than the Egyptian transport, El Quesir, it could easily be mistaken for the latter vessel by an overzealous pilot. Both ships have similar arrangements of masts and stack.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

3. When the torpedo boats arrived, they did not immediately open fire. They signaled to the Liberty to identify itself, and while there are differing accounts of the signal exchange, both the CIA Memorandum and Captain McGonanagle's testimony at the Naval Court of Inquiry state the the Liberty opened fire on the torpedo boats with two machine guns and only after being fire upon did the Israeli boats launch their torpedoes.

4. Finally, the CIA Memorandum notes that intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended the Israelis still believed they had attacked a Egyptian ship.

So while some people, especially some members of the Liberty's crew, continue to have strong feelings about the incident, there is not one shred of evidence to support the theory that Israel knowingly attacked a US Naval vessel, and there is abundant evidence that supports the Israeli explanation that it was a case of mistaken identity, a friendly fire incident during a time of war.

 

[Desperado]

I disagree.

Most Israeli apologist do disagree and we are all entitled to our opinions.
How ever, A Patrol boat in the water next to the USS Liberty would certainly know it is
not an Egyptian freighter. There is no way that they can explain it as anything other than a deliberate attack on a US Naval vessel. I think I will believe the sailors on board the Liberty.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Remember here, we had a Super Secret Spy Ship with a giant Satellite Dish, transmitting massive communications, right off of Israel's coast, during an invasion. They did try to communicate with us before the attack. We basically blew them off.

i wouldn't disagree with that, although i don't think it has any bearing as to whether the attack was deliberate with the knowledge that the USS Liberty was a U.S. Naval vessel.

What is of valid concern is the fear of what the ship was doing. Whether or not it was a Threat to Israeli operations. That was a Top Secret New Technology Israel knew nothing about. Personally, I believe Israel saw it as a real Threat. Nothing else would have led to the attack. Again, ask yourself, "Why wasn't the Liberty Escorted? What of the claim of the Sub that was on Site, that witnessed everything?" Remember, We adamantly denied it was our Ship. Anyone could have been playing Trojan Horse. Is Israel without blame? No. Were we? No. Command hung that ship out to dry.

Even if we assume the Liberty was a spy ship monitoring Israeli communications, what possible threat did it pose to Israel? By the time of the attack, Egypt had already been defeated and no amount of information about Israeli radio communications could have helped Jordan or Syria. The Liberty posed no threat at all to Israel so Israel would have had no reason at all to attack it.

 

[jillian]

35years ago and still complaining. Shall we hate the Japanese because of Pearl harbor? The Vietnamese because of Vietnam, We are not allowed to dislike the Arabs for acts they committed days ago but we should hate the Jews for something that happened 35 years ago?

Or is that different?

No difference. We can play friends with everyone if we want to. I for one think it's dangerous to forget.

really? i think it's more dangerous that some keep raising something that was found to be an accident.

the saudi's funded 9/11...

where are all the threads about that?

 

[toomuchtime_]

I disagree.

Most Israeli apologist do disagree and we are all entitled to our opinions.
How ever, A Patrol boat in the water next to the USS Liberty would certainly know it is
not an Egyptian freighter. There is no way that they can explain it as anything other than a deliberate attack on a US Naval vessel. I think I will believe the sailors on board the Liberty.

I don't know what patrol boat you are thinking of, but as the CIA noted in its memorandum, intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower clearly show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended, the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

 

[Desperado]

I disagree.

Most Israeli apologist do disagree and we are all entitled to our opinions.
How ever, A Patrol boat in the water next to the USS Liberty would certainly know it is
not an Egyptian freighter. There is no way that they can explain it as anything other than a deliberate attack on a US Naval vessel. I think I will believe the sailors on board the Liberty.

I don't know what patrol boat you are thinking of, but as the CIA noted in its memorandum, intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower clearly show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended, the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

The second phase of the attack was by three Israeli Patrol boats. These are the boats I am talking about.
Secretary Rusk stated, among other things: “At the time of the attack, the USS Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. … Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air…. Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. … The subsequent attack by the torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life.”

 

[toomuchtime_]

Most Israeli apologist do disagree and we are all entitled to our opinions.
How ever, A Patrol boat in the water next to the USS Liberty would certainly know it is
not an Egyptian freighter. There is no way that they can explain it as anything other than a deliberate attack on a US Naval vessel. I think I will believe the sailors on board the Liberty.

I don't know what patrol boat you are thinking of, but as the CIA noted in its memorandum, intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower clearly show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended, the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

The second phase of the attack was by three Israeli Patrol boats. These are the boats I am talking about.
Secretary Rusk stated, among other things: “At the time of the attack, the USS Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. … Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air…. Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. … The subsequent attack by the torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life.”

Dean Rusk may have thought the vessel should have been identified by the Israelis by the time of the torpedo attack, but the intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower referenced in the CIA memorandum clearly showed that 40 minutes after the attack had ended the Israelis still thought they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

Rusk was the only member of the administration who seemed to believe the Israelis knew it was an American ship at the time of the attack, but he admitted that he had read none of the investigations on the subject. Had he read the Naval Court of Inquiry's report, Rusk would have learned that the Court had addressed the issue of the flag and markings and had found that the ship was enveloped by smoke when the torpedo boats approached it, having been hit with napalm bombs in the air attack, so that only parts of the ship were clearly visible. It should be noted that the initial contact occurred when the torpedo boats were still three miles away and that the Liberty opened fire on them as they tried to get closer, and it was only after coming under fire that the Israeli boats launched their torpedoes.

Additionally, common sense should tell us that Israel had no reason to knowingly attack a US Naval vessel even if it was monitoring Israeli communications. Egypt had already been defeated by the time of the attack and neither Jordan nor Syria was capable of putting up much of a defense without Egypt providing air support.

 

[sealadaigh]

I disagree.

Most Israeli apologist do disagree and we are all entitled to our opinions.
How ever, A Patrol boat in the water next to the USS Liberty would certainly know it is
not an Egyptian freighter. There is no way that they can explain it as anything other than a deliberate attack on a US Naval vessel. I think I will believe the sailors on board the Liberty.

I don't know what patrol boat you are thinking of, but as the CIA noted in its memorandum, intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower clearly show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended, the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

ya know, if i am going to attack one of the most sophisticated radio surveillance ships on the high seas with unmarked jets and claim it is egyptian ship, i think i would have everyone involved in the commo end of the game not blurt out that they were attacking one of the most sophisticated radio surveillance ships on the high seas because that highly sophisticated radio surveillance ship might be capable, at some point, of monitoring such commo.

that's what i would do if i were running such an op. of course, one rarely goes wrong underestimating israeli intelligence.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Most Israeli apologist do disagree and we are all entitled to our opinions.
How ever, A Patrol boat in the water next to the USS Liberty would certainly know it is
not an Egyptian freighter. There is no way that they can explain it as anything other than a deliberate attack on a US Naval vessel. I think I will believe the sailors on board the Liberty.

I don't know what patrol boat you are thinking of, but as the CIA noted in its memorandum, intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower clearly show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended, the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

ya know, if i am going to attack one of the most sophisticated radio surveillance ships on the high seas with unmarked jets and claim it is egyptian ship, i think i would have everyone involved in the commo end of the game not blurt out that they were attacking one of the most sophisticated radio surveillance ships on the high seas because that highly sophisticated radio surveillance ship might be capable, at some point, of monitoring such commo.

that's what i would do if i were running such an op. of course, one rarely goes wrong underestimating israeli intelligence.

I see, you would go to all that trouble to attack a ship that posed absolutely no threat to you. Why?

 

[sealadaigh]

I don't know what patrol boat you are thinking of, but as the CIA noted in its memorandum, intercepted communications between Israeli pilots and the Israeli control tower clearly show that 40 minutes after the attacks had ended, the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf

ya know, if i am going to attack one of the most sophisticated radio surveillance ships on the high seas with unmarked jets and claim it is egyptian ship, i think i would have everyone involved in the commo end of the game not blurt out that they were attacking one of the most sophisticated radio surveillance ships on the high seas because that highly sophisticated radio surveillance ship might be capable, at some point, of monitoring such commo.

that's what i would do if i were running such an op. of course, one rarely goes wrong underestimating israeli intelligence.

I see, you would go to all that trouble to attack a ship that posed absolutely no threat to you. Why?

like i said, we can speculate as to motive all over the place. how about this...to suck america, who was neutral at the time, into a war with egypt.

now, my understanding is that the reason for attacking the USS Liberty was that the israelis thought the Liberty was shelling israeli positions at el arish?

 

[MikeK]

Personally, I think the reason to obstruct Investigation here, and the Facts, has to do more with the Joint Chief's of Staff, than Israel.

Israel is in no position to obstruct an investigation. All Israel can do is deny the obvious, which is what it has done and continues to do.

But there is no question that elements of the U.S. Government, beginning with LBJ, are guilty of covering up what in fact was an act of war against the U.S. perpetrated by a protectorate that depends on the U.S. for its very survival.

While there have been highly questionable inquiries about this incident there has not been a formal congressional investigation. Why? There was a full-scale congressional investigation of the Clinton blowjob but no investigation of the Liberty incident. Why?

 

[MikeK]

Remember here, we had a Super Secret Spy Ship with a giant Satellite Dish, transmitting massive communications, right off of Israel's coast, during an invasion. They did try to communicate with us before the attack. We basically blew them off.

So they attack our ship, kill 34 of our sailors and try to sink it? Israel does this to us?

 

[MikeK]

I left nothing out. Every official investigation and every official document concerning the event found the attack was the result of mistaken identity, a friendly fire incident. There is no evidence that suggests the Israelis intentionally attacked a US ship and there is abundant evidence that they thought it was an Egyptian ship, including intercepted communications between pilots and the control tower that were declassified only in 2003 that indicate long after the attack had ended the Israelis still believed they had attacked an Egyptian ship.

There is abundant evidence and it would be revealed if the appropriate congressional investigation were conducted. The fact that there has been no such investigation is in itself evidence of a cover-up.

Why has there been no congressional investigation of an incident of this magnitude? Can you explain that?

 

[MikeK]

What is of valid concern is the fear of what the ship was doing. Whether or not it was a Threat to Israeli operations. That was a Top Secret New Technology Israel knew nothing about. Personally, I believe Israel saw it as a real Threat. Nothing else would have led to the attack. Again, ask yourself, "Why wasn't the Liberty Escorted? What of the claim of the Sub that was on Site, that witnessed everything?" Remember, We adamantly denied it was our Ship. Anyone could have been playing Trojan Horse. Is Israel without blame? No. Were we? No. Command hung that ship out to dry.

Everything you've presented here is secondary to the fact that a supposed "ally" attacked our ship and killed our sailors. That is the issue at hand.

 

[CMike]

Not again.

All US government extensive investigations concluded it was an accident.

 

[Intense]

Remember here, we had a Super Secret Spy Ship with a giant Satellite Dish, transmitting massive communications, right off of Israel's coast, during an invasion. They did try to communicate with us before the attack. We basically blew them off.

So they attack our ship, kill 34 of our sailors and try to sink it? Israel does this to us?

We denied it was our Ship, repeatedly. The Joint Chief's were up to speed every step of the way. They knew what was happening, They were directly responsible for putting the Liberty in Harms way, in the first place. They did a lot of bumbling that day, tripping over themselves, every step of the way.

 

[CMike]

Also a NSA spy plane picked up the transmissions of the Israeli pilots.

This makes it beyond doubt that it was an accident.