The Jews and the Native Americans

[KevinWestern]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

 

[Hossfly]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.

 

[KevinWestern]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.

Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military.

.

 

[Hossfly]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.

Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military.

.

As I stated to you in another thread, Israel was given the land as a Covenant. The Indians sneaked in here like everybody else. Simple as that.

 

[KevinWestern]

Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.

Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military.

.

As I stated to you in another thread, Israel was given the land as a Covenant. The Indians sneaked in here like everybody else. Simple as that.

Listen, I'm not saying that's not the case (I wasn't there thousands and thousands of years ago, and have an open mind), but that argument is a religious one that cannot be proven true or false. It won't hold up in a court of law, and is specific to a single religious viewpoint (disregarding the viewpoints of all other religious beliefs).

Are you an American? Don't you believe that every human has an equal say to a matter and should be considered?

How do you know the same God didn't assign the Native Americans to North America? Was he not around when they were occupying North America for literally thousands and thousands of years?

.

 

[hoosier88]

Wouldn't fly. Too many NRA members.

Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military.

.

As I stated to you in another thread, Israel was given the land as a Covenant. The Indians sneaked in here like everybody else. Simple as that.

(My bold)

Covenant covers everyone who follows the Talmud or the Bible. Most of the World doesn't, & of course, Islam follows the Koran. So putting forth a Jewish/Christian religious argument isn't going to convince anyone, except those who are already convinced. Preaching to the minyan, I suppose, to coin a phrase.

The Native Peoples didn't have to sneak in; TMK, there were no other people here @ the time. So they just walked in, or rowed across, or sailed - whichever theory of their populating the New World you happen to like.

 

[flowery]

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

.

Says who ????

Please don't twist the truth

The Torah (the Jewish Holly Book) itself indicate that the Canaanites (the Arabs ) have the former presence in Palestine

and by the way there are no book cursing Jews as the Torah itself
And the earth is not signed by anyone only one of obey God

 

[sealadaigh]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

again, "native american" is and ethnicity. "jews" are adherents or whose parents or whatever of a religion. it does have an ethnic component, but most religions do. for instance, i am a catholic...am i irish, italian, german, etc.

a better analogy would be if mormons declaring utah a nation, having the UN approve it, and having the chinese come in and support that nation economically and militarily...oh, and then they find this book written by joeseph smith that says god promised them colorado and arizona as well....

 

[MHunterB]

The 'analogy' in the OP is too far from being factually accurate to consider seriously, IMHO.

I think it'd be more useful to discuss verifiable facts than suppositions which relate to an impossible hypothetical situation.

 

[MHunterB]

Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.

But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.

 

[sealadaigh]

The 'analogy' is too far from being factually accurate to consider, IMHO.

you are far from humble...and to whose analogy are you referring.

 

[MHunterB]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

.

Says who ????

Please don't twist the truth

The Torah (the Jewish Holly Book) itself indicate that the Canaanites (the Arabs ) have the former presence in Palestine

and by the way there are no book cursing Jews as the Torah itself
And the earth is not signed by anyone only one of obey God

As far as I know, the Canaanites weren't Arabs.

 

[sealadaigh]

Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.

But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.

it would be nice if your friends made a distinction between colonialiasm and imperialism. is there some reason why felt it necessary to mention "european" along with "imperialism".

zionism, as it is practised. is colonialism in the classic sense.

and, as you like to remind people constantly, the accuracy of your friend's understanding is only your opinion, as is their understanding only their opinionion..

 

[GHook93]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

Not even close to a good comparison! The Native America genocide has been way overplayed and the were dozen upon dozen of Indian tribes. Most were nomadic, war'ed with each other, were as different as they were with the white man, lived on only small parts of land and the wars between the white man the Indians were as much the Indian's fault as the white man's.

 

[MHunterB]

"Come on, that's a bit of a cop out. I know you have an opinion on the subject. Let's say Gov't took away all of your guns (the unfortunate path our country is headed), and this actually happened.

How would you react? How would you feel now having to report to a Native American Chief and follow those rules or leave? Oh yea, and now you (gunless) have to face the Native American military which is being 100% funded and supplied by a very advanced and powerful Chinese Military."

OK, Kevin - You can choose to drop your pretense of 'being undecided' - or you can drop the lying propaganda BS. Its up to you.......

I don't mind discussing matters with "pro-Palestinian" folks: in fact, I think many supporters of Israel are indeed 'pro-Palestinian', as we recognize that a peaceful and prosperous 'Palestine' would be Israel's best hope for the future : ))

 

[Hossfly]

Incidentally, most of my NA friends and acquaintances are quite supportive of Judaism, Israel and Zionism.

But then they have an accurate understanding of Zionism and don't confuse it with 'European imperialism'.

Actually, Marg, we used to have Native American posters, such as one from the Navajo Nation of the Dené tribe in Arizona, and they were all for Israel.

 

[KevinWestern]

Hey Dudes, I'm a newbie to the subject and wanted to explore the below comparison:

Israel was the home of the Jews long ago, but over time (via numerous historical events) it eventually fell into the hands of the Muslims.

North America was once the home of various large Native American tribes (for thousands and thousands of years), but over time it eventually came under the control of "Western" foreigners.

For those who support the newly installed state of Israel following WWII, how would you feel about a foreign gov't coming into the US and forcefully installing a Native American state over (perhaps) 4-6 states?

My take:
Personally, I'd be pretty ticked off if China came into the US and gave whatever tribe controlled Illinois (and Chicago) back to the Native American tribes who once controlled the region; would you if this happened in your city/town?

This is why I'm sort of undecided when it comes to the question "do I support the Modern Israeli state". To support it full fledged would sorta make me a hypocrite.



.

Not even close to a good comparison! The Native America genocide has been way overplayed and the were dozen upon dozen of Indian tribes. Most were nomadic, warried with each other, were as different as they were with the white man, lived on only small parts of land and the wars between the white man the Indians were as much the Indians fault as the white man's.

Thanks for the neg rep and the message "STFU you stupid fuck!". You sound like a real pleasant, respectful, and interesting human being.


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[KevinWestern]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

 

[Hossfly]

Why did you start with WW2, Kevin? Why don't you look a bit further back - if you want to discuss the actual history and not merely some fantasy scenario?

NOTHING in your intial premise is accurate. For example, the land once known as 'Judea' fell into the hands of the 'Muslims'....... do you think all Muslims are the same? The land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, ruled by (non Arab) Turks.

Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does affect your scenario.

I'd also like to know what you, Kevin, think is meant by 'Zionism'?

Here's the root of what I'm getting at.

Israel (as it exists today) did not exist prior to WWII and the mass flight of the Jews. As I understand it, it was Britain who created it's borders, and it was NOT well received by the powers who resided in that region (as evidence by the war that broke out shortly thereafter).

Is it okay for a foreign entity/government/ect to draw out the borders of a nation without the consent of those currently in power, currently living in the region where the borders are being drawn?


.

Don't dig any deeper or you'll end up in China.