The Homosexual Agenda, The aclu, And Your Children...

[mattskramer]

It's irrelevant because someone cannot change their physical attraction to someone. Overtime someone can gain to like different foods.

We simply disagree. I think that if there is enough of a desire, people can change. It may be a long, costly, painful arduous process but people can change. Think of those people who like pornography to such an extent that it damages their marriage and career. Those people change. It may take group therapy; it may take expensive behavioral therapy. If enough pleasure (even artificially induced) is linked to something (Example: masturbating to pornography), one will develop a liking to it. If enough pain is linked to something else, one will come to dislike being associated with it. Again, if you can somehow create a habitual link between something and pleasure, then you can come to like it. It might take drug therapy too.

Read toward the bottom of http://www.psychology.sbc.edu/rogers_legacy.html
(Edited here for brevity and readability)

Watson theorized that children have three basic emotional reactions: fear, rage, and love. He wanted to prove that these three reactions could be artificially conditioned in children. Watson conducted a conditioning experiment with an eleven-month-old baby named Albert. The experiment conditioned Albert’s fear reaction to white, fury objects.

At the beginning of the experiment Albert did not fear many objects, and he would often reach for the white rat. “Watson applied two principles to the experiment: 1) emotional responses are conditioned to various stimuli as a result of pairings that occur between conditioned stimuli such as distinctive sounds, smell, sights, or love and anger, 2) emotional responses can spread to stimuli to which they have not been conditional, but that resemble the conditioned stimuli After only seven pairings of the white rat with a loud clanging noise, Albert had become very frightened of the rat. When Albert was tested a few days after this occurrence, he was not only afraid of the rat, but also of a white rabbit, and a seal coat. Prior to the experiment he had played comfortably with the aforementioned objects. Albert’s fear of the other objects is referred to as “transfer” or “spread.” Unfortunately, Albert remained conditioned to fear white, fury objects all of his life. This kind of study would be unethical today.

Application of Watson’s theory results in rigid prescriptions for child rearing, and education, as well as for training and control in the military and industry. Watson’s theory claims that people’s behavior can be controlled by manipulating stimulus and response events: “Don’t kiss and cuddle our children; shake their hands, and then arrange their environments so that the behaviors you desire will be brought under the control of the appropriate stimuli.

I understand that Watson (in addition to Skinner and Pavlov) focused on behavior but I think that such conditioning can even be applied to fundamental desires. I'd go further and suggest that basic desires (even heterosexual and homosexual desires) can similarly be conditioned.

You missed the point completely. A lot of people do not want to be gay. They do not want to inform their parents that they are this way. Like I said before they will go through extreme methods to try to fix their orientation (obviously failing). So why would someone go through such if they are not born this way?

But why would they let themselves become this way? As I am saying, being gay is negative in the American Society. Calling someone gay is considered an insult. A lot of the gay community do not want to be how they are. If they could change then why wouldn't they?

I still contend that though homosexuality might be genetic, if one has a strong enough desire to not be homosexual, it is possible for him to change.

 

[CorpMediaSux]

We simply disagree. I think that if there is enough of a desire, people can change. It may be a long, costly, painful arduous process but people can change. Think of those people who like pornography to such an extent that it damages their marriage and career. Those people change. It may take group therapy; it may take expensive behavioral therapy. If enough pleasure (even artificially induced) is linked to something (Example: masturbating to pornography), one will develop a liking to it. If enough pain is linked to something else, one will come to dislike being associated with it. Again, if you can somehow create a habitual link between something and pleasure, then you can come to like it. It might take drug therapy too.

I have to admit, I'm a bit perplexed at what is behind your argument. Are you simply saying that it's possible to change human behaviour through conditioning. Well yes, that's been a scientific fact since Pavlov's dogs. If you create artificial pain and/or employ artificial drugs you can take most people's inclinations and change them.

However, what you havent' really delved into is why these extreme treatments should be administered to homosexuals. We're not talking about sociopaths. Nothing about homosexuality physically harms another person. What is the reason for so violently altering a persona's natural sexual orientation (whatever that might be). The reason people are unhappy with their own homosexuality is from societal pressure, not anything inherent within being gay or lesbian. And frankly, to those people I say, get over yourselves. It's 2007 and if you can't grow some balls, find a partner and live your life, well you're gonna be miserable no matter WHAT, because you are a person who lives for others happiness more than your own.

 

[CorpMediaSux]

MattsKramer
We simply disagree. I think that if there is enough of a desire, people can change. It may be a long, costly, painful arduous process but people can change. Think of those people who like pornography to such an extent that it damages their marriage and career. Those people change. It may take group therapy; it may take expensive behavioral therapy. If enough pleasure (even artificially induced) is linked to something (Example: masturbating to pornography), one will develop a liking to it. If enough pain is linked to something else, one will come to dislike being associated with it. Again, if you can somehow create a habitual link between something and pleasure, then you can come to like it. It might take drug therapy too.

I have to admit, I'm a bit perplexed at what is behind your argument. Are you simply saying that it's possible to change human behaviour through conditioning. Well yes, that's been a scientific fact since Pavlov's dogs. If you create artificial pain and/or employ artificial drugs you can take most people's inclinations and change them.

However, what you havent' really delved into is why these extreme treatments should be administered to homosexuals. We're not talking about sociopaths. Nothing about homosexuality physically harms another person. What is the reason for so violently altering a persona's natural sexual orientation (whatever that might be). The reason people are unhappy with their own homosexuality is from societal pressure, not anything inherent within being gay or lesbian. And frankly, to those people I say, get over yourselves. It's 2007 and if you can't grow some balls, find a partner and live your life, well you're gonna be miserable no matter WHAT, because you are a person who lives for others happiness more than your own.

 

[Shogun]

Matts...


would it be possible to make you crave dick with enough shock therapy, you think? And, I don't mean just while the electrodes are plugged in. I mean, do you think I could use classical conditioning to turn you from hetero to gay? Where, ten years from now you'll still be craving dick after diving into the gay sub-culture?


I would say that the answer is no in regards to turning you gay just like the track record from "turn your gay son strait" programs from christians have a pattern of being unsuccessful.


Moreso, if I understand your logic, how do gay kids get produced from hetero parents in the first place then? Don't strait parents provide positive reinforcement for hetero behaviour? Strait parents don't punish boys for liking girls, right?

 

[AllieBaba]

People can change. People choose whether or not to continue to be attracted to their spouses every day of the year. People choose whether or not to be attracted to partners who have behaved in a manner which brings on a decision of whether or not to remain together. I know I've chosen to stop being attracted by certain people, when I still felt physical attraction, but knew I had to put the kabosh to it. And I did.

Everyone has, if they are of a certain age, at some point quashed an attraction they've had for another.

But the choice goes back further than that with homosexuality. It isn't about somehow discovering, "oops, I'm gay!" and then trying to deal with it. It's about deciding NOT to be homosexual in the first place. Or deciding to. Almost every single homosexual in the world has had that discussion with themselves at some point....the "Gee, I'm attracted to members of the same sex...where should I go with this?" In fact, I'd bet that almost every single person in the world has at some point pondered the possibility. And upon pondering, they make a decision. It's either, "OMG, I can't believe I thought that," or "Wow, I'm going to have to put that in a box and store it away" or "I just really really want to explore this further."

There's no genetic or biological code that forces anyone to make any of those choices.

 

[doniston]

Than construct an argument that proves it.

If you have been paying attention, you would recognize that there is no absolute proof either wayy.

 

[mattskramer]

Those “Christian” groups that try to get gays to go straight is tiddlywinks. I’m talking about true hard-core behavioral and emotional conditioning. I think that it is possible to change. How do Koreans get American soldiers to change sides? How did Pavlov get his dog to salivate at the sound of a bell? I think that homosexuals can become heterosexuals and vice versa.

Some children from gay families remain straight. Some gays come from straight parents. Perhaps someone turns gay due to pleasant experiences when experimenting with homosexuality. Perhaps someone really found a soul mate of the same sex. How come some Democrats come from Republican families and how come some Republicans come from Democrat families. Perhaps it just seems natural or right for them.

I don’t care and I don’t think that it matters. As to why people should change, I don’t think that they should. If someone is bothered that someone is gay, then it is a problem for the one who has a problem with the gay person. It is not the gay person’s problem. People really need to get a life.

 

[Big_D]

We simply disagree. I think that if there is enough of a desire, people can change. It may be a long, costly, painful arduous process but people can change. Think of those people who like pornography to such an extent that it damages their marriage and career. Those people change. It may take group therapy; it may take expensive behavioral therapy. If enough pleasure (even artificially induced) is linked to something (Example: masturbating to pornography), one will develop a liking to it. If enough pain is linked to something else, one will come to dislike being associated with it. Again, if you can somehow create a habitual link between something and pleasure, then you can come to like it. It might take drug therapy too.

Read toward the bottom of http://www.psychology.sbc.edu/rogers_legacy.html
(Edited here for brevity and readability)

Watson theorized that children have three basic emotional reactions: fear, rage, and love. He wanted to prove that these three reactions could be artificially conditioned in children. Watson conducted a conditioning experiment with an eleven-month-old baby named Albert. The experiment conditioned Albert’s fear reaction to white, fury objects.

At the beginning of the experiment Albert did not fear many objects, and he would often reach for the white rat. “Watson applied two principles to the experiment: 1) emotional responses are conditioned to various stimuli as a result of pairings that occur between conditioned stimuli such as distinctive sounds, smell, sights, or love and anger, 2) emotional responses can spread to stimuli to which they have not been conditional, but that resemble the conditioned stimuli After only seven pairings of the white rat with a loud clanging noise, Albert had become very frightened of the rat. When Albert was tested a few days after this occurrence, he was not only afraid of the rat, but also of a white rabbit, and a seal coat. Prior to the experiment he had played comfortably with the aforementioned objects. Albert’s fear of the other objects is referred to as “transfer” or “spread.” Unfortunately, Albert remained conditioned to fear white, fury objects all of his life. This kind of study would be unethical today.

Application of Watson’s theory results in rigid prescriptions for child rearing, and education, as well as for training and control in the military and industry. Watson’s theory claims that people’s behavior can be controlled by manipulating stimulus and response events: “Don’t kiss and cuddle our children; shake their hands, and then arrange their environments so that the behaviors you desire will be brought under the control of the appropriate stimuli.

I understand that Watson (in addition to Skinner and Pavlov) focused on behavior but I think that such conditioning can even be applied to fundamental desires. I'd go further and suggest that basic desires (even heterosexual and homosexual desires) can similarly be conditioned.

I still contend that though homosexuality might be genetic, if one has a strong enough desire to not be homosexual, it is possible for him to change.

If someone can change then why haven't more gays have done so? Like I have said numerous times people will even take such extreme methods as electroshock therapy in order to change and have failed. You don't think that these people have made an adequate attempt to become a heterosexual? If someone is willing to punish themselves as they are here then I think that they have taken such steps in order to become the way the want and they still end up failing.

http://www.beyondexgay.com/narratives/eric
Here is a link about a story of someone who made number attempts to become a heterosexual and failed. He was actually so miserable being gay that he was thinking about suicide. So if someone is so unhappy being gay that they are kill themselves wouldn't you think that they made a decent attempt to change?

 

[mattskramer]

If someone can change then why haven't more gays have done so? Like I have said numerous times people will even take such extreme methods as electroshock therapy in order to change and have failed. You don't think that these people have made an adequate attempt to become a heterosexual? If someone is willing to punish themselves as they are here then I think that they have taken such steps in order to become the way the want and they still end up failing.

I already answered your question. They have not made a real decision. They have not tried everything possible. We simply disagree. As I said before, I doubt that they should feel obligated to change. It is okay to be gay as far as I’m concerned.

http://www.beyondexgay.com/narratives/eric

Here is a link about a story of someone who made number attempts to become a heterosexual and failed. He was actually so miserable being gay that he was thinking about suicide. So if someone is so unhappy being gay that they are kill themselves wouldn't you think that they made a decent attempt to change?

No. I think that he was despondent and depressed but in answer to your question, he did not make a decent attempt to change. I don’t see where he took drug therapy. I don’t see where he tried long and hard enough to change. I don’t see any inpatient behavior therapy hospital that he attended. I think that we are quibbling over an insignificant point in the “homosexual issue”. It is okay to be gay.

 

[Big_D]

I already answered your question. They have not made a real decision. They have not tried everything possible. We simply disagree. As I said before, I doubt that they should feel obligated to change. It is okay to be gay as far as I’m concerned.

How do you know that these people have not made a real attempt to change themselves? You do not think that electing to have electric bolts run through your body a real decision? What do you mean when you said they shouldn't obligated to change? If we are all born alike then what is there to change to?

No. I think that he was despondent and depressed but in answer to your question, he did not make a decent attempt to change. I don’t see where he took drug therapy. I don’t see where he tried long and hard enough to change. I don’t see any inpatient behavior therapy hospital that he attended. I think that we are quibbling over an insignificant point in the “homosexual issue”. It is okay to be gay.

What you are saying is not making sense. First of all I have never heard of a drug that makes someone a heterosexual. Next, if there is such a thing and it does work then it would only work for someone who had something that was with them at the time of their birth, right? Also, if someone has made the decision to be gay, then why would they need any help at all? http://books.google.com/books?id=Ob-53plFMgIC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=%22i+wanted+to+be+straight%22&source=web&ots=9i1P-5wmI7&sig=qErfkxUeIqw0RYY9qyTI4VXqILU#PPA46,M1
Here is a link of someone who went to a Psychiatric social worker to try to become straight and claimed that they didnt do anything.

Here is another link that is from a man that is gay and wanted to be a heterosexual. http://www.beyondexgay.com/Narratives/RickHe stated, "Prayer, fasting, inner healing, accountability groups, medication, and 12-step groups. Even a scary exorcism attempt with lots of shouting. Since none of it made any difference, I became pretty despondent and hopeless over time." This guy did claim that he took medication in order to become a heterosexual. Why is it again that these people choosing to be gay if it is making them so miserable?

 

[mattskramer]

I don’t know if drug therapy, in combination with other therapies would work but it may be an option worth investigating, particularly before considering suicide. I doubt that EST would work but it may also be a possibility. I simply mean that it is okay to be gay. It is okay to like whatever you like within reason as long as it doesn’t interfere with the freedom of others. Basically, within reason, do your own thing. It is okay to be gay.

Why do people remain alcoholics and some people break through and learn to not like beer. My father liked to smoke. He quit cold turkey and now hates the smell of cigarettes. Why is it that some people try to free themselves of porn and some people continue to like it? In my opinion, they have not made a true decision to change.

People can change even if they were born gay and/or if they chose to be gay. I am saying that it is possible to change in either case if one tries hard enough. Just like a scientist was able to instill fear of white fur in a child and just as one was able to make a dog salivate at the sound of a bell, one can change from gay to straight and from straight to gay. I will continue to contend that it is possible.

 

[Shogun]

then are you admitting that I could turn you gay, a clockwork orange style, with a little punishment and positive reinforcement?


Pavlov's dog's associated the sound of shoes walking down the hallway with being fed meat powder. the dog's didn't choose to want to salivate any more than dogs WANT to stop shitting in the house when being punished using the same principals of pavlovian behaviour modification.

Some children from gay families remain straight. Some gays come from straight parents. Perhaps someone turns gay due to pleasant experiences when experimenting with homosexuality. Perhaps someone really found a soul mate of the same sex. How come some Democrats come from Republican families and how come some Republicans come from Democrat families. Perhaps it just seems natural or right for them.


but you don't address the issue in question: if it is ONLY external influence that causes homosexual tendencies, per your assumption that homosexuality is a choice overcome by classical conditioning, THEN how do you account for all the gay people who are products of strict heteros? Better yet, how come gay parents are not strictly pumping out GAY kids? If "turn your son back inot a hetero with jebus" routines DONT WORK then give me some kind of estimate regarding the level of counciling necessary to turn one from gay to strait. Yes, if I labotomize you I can change a very many things about your personality. If I torture the shit out of you then, indeed, I can make you change a great many things. If korea was able to sway the OPINION of an American soldier then what, exactly, does that suggest about a BEHAVIOUR at all? So, I used to hate brocolli and now love the stuff.. How does changing an OPINION compare with changing a sexual orientation? Could YOU take a month off from hetero and suck some dick? What kind of stimuli would it take to turn you into a fire on the flightdeck?

After all, Pavlov's dog didn't just *poof* all of a sudden START LIKING MEAT just because they associated a sound with being fed.



ps... I was going to ask if someone farted in here but, now that I scroll back, I see that it was just Allie's Halitosis of the keyboard flaring up..

 

[doniston]

then are you admitting that I could turn you gay, a clockwork orange style, with a little punishment and positive reinforcement?



QUOTE] And then would he REALLY be straight?? or just deathly affraid of acting, or admitting he was still gay?

 

[mattskramer]

then are you admitting that I could turn you gay, a clockwork orange style, with a little punishment and positive reinforcement?

I think that it would be possible if I really wanted to be gay and if I made a true, no exception, decision to be gay. It would not take a little punishment and positive reinforcement. It would be constant (perhaps every hour of the day) hard work and it may take decades.

Pavlov's dog's associated the sound of shoes walking down the hallway with being fed meat powder. the dog's didn't choose to want to salivate any more than dogs WANT to stop shitting in the house when being punished using the same principals of pavlovian behaviour modification.

True. It became automatic for the dog.

but you don't address the issue in question: if it is ONLY external influence that causes homosexual tendencies, per your assumption that homosexuality is a choice overcome by classical conditioning, THEN how do you account for all the gay people who are products of strict heteros? Better yet, how come gay parents are not strictly pumping out GAY kids? If "turn your son back inot a hetero with jebus" routines DONT WORK then give me some kind of estimate regarding the level of counciling necessary to turn one from gay to strait. Yes, if I labotomize you I can change a very many things about your personality. If I torture the shit out of you then, indeed, I can make you change a great many things. If korea was able to sway the OPINION of an American soldier then what, exactly, does that suggest about a BEHAVIOUR at all? So, I used to hate brocolli and now love the stuff.. How does changing an OPINION compare with changing a sexual orientation? Could YOU take a month off from hetero and suck some dick? What kind of stimuli would it take to turn you into a fire on the flightdeck?

I doubt that I ever said that homosexuality is exclusively a choice. If I did, I did not mean to do so. There may be a genetic component. The desire was changed in the American soldiers. The desire was changed in the person who now likes broccoli. I don’t know how much it would take to change my sexual orientation. My point is not so much about what causes homosexuality (genetic or environmental). Honestly, I don’t know to what extent, if any, genetics and/or environment play a part. My point is that I believe that one can change from a homosexual to a heterosexual and vice versa even if there is a genetic element to his sexual orientation. Such elements can be overcome.

After all, Pavlov's dog didn't just *poof* all of a sudden START LIKING MEAT just because they associated a sound with being fed.

I agree. It took time.

 

[Shogun]

it didn't take any time for the dog to love eating meat without being given the choice of such.

Pavlov's dogs didn't choose to be carnivorous because of an association with ringing bells.


im just saying...

 

[mattskramer]

it didn't take any time for the dog to love eating meat without being given the choice of such.

Pavlov's dogs didn't choose to be carnivorous because of an association with ringing bells.


im just saying...

Hmmm. Okay. Good point. Provided the dog’s biological chemistry permits it, perhaps, there could be a way for Pavlov to turn the dog into a vegetarian. Perhaps some desires can’t be changed. I think that sexual preference can be changed. How do some people who used to be habitual smokers actually come to dislike tobacco smoke? How is it that some people who were addicted to porn no longer like it? Also, what about those American POW’s and people who used to hate broccoli? Behavior can be changed. I think that we agree with that. I take it a step further and contend that deep desires can be changed.

 

[Shogun]

i'm pretty sure that sexual orientation, like handedness, is not merely a preference, like mustard as opposed to ketchup.


like I said, pavlov's dogs were carniverous from birth. Lefties who were forced to write with their right hand didn't lose dexterity in their left hand. Fine, YOU believe that sexual preference can be changed... but I guess I'd put a little more water in that bucket if you were to also say that you spent a year of your life loving up on men after making the same choice that, apparently, gays are capable of...

 

[007]

I was briefly sexually attracted to a young man several years ago for some time. Later, my interest seemed to subside. Today, I’m happily married to a woman and have no interest in having any homosexual relationship.

So you had a temporary lapse in judgment and mental stability. Thank you for that prime example of almost succumbing to perverted thoughts, and perfectly demonstrating how it is a choice. A bad choice.

 

[Shogun]

retarded

 

[mattskramer]

So you had a temporary lapse in judgment and mental stability. Thank you for that prime example of almost succumbing to perverted thoughts, and perfectly demonstrating how it is a choice. A bad choice.

I would not call it a lapse in judgment. We knew each other for quite a while. I was very confident that he had no STD. We liked each other a lot. It was no more a lapse in judgment or bad choice than are those choices men make in one-night-stands, or smoking, or driving fast. You weight the costs, benefits, and risks, and take your chances.