The Hockey Stick Graph Reality

Discussion in 'Environment' started by RollingThunder, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Crick
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    Crick Gold Member

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    Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.
     
  2. westwall
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    westwall Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.
     
  3. Crick
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    Crick Gold Member

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    Why? How far do you have to penetrate in any of the opaque materials that absorb almost every scintilla of energy that hits them? If water is NOT absorbing the IR that hits it and then disappears within a few microns, WHERE is that energy going?
     
  4. westwall
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    westwall Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Heat rises. Thus to heat something as massive as the ocean you have to heat the depths, otherwise the heat escapes back to the atmosphere too quickly. Take a look at the thermocline, it begins at around 200 meters and hits bottom at about 1000 (4 deg C)meters. Beyond that the ocean temp drops at a relatively uniform rate, at 4500 meters it is around 3.5 deg C. The Sun has been feeding heat into the oceans for billions of years. THAT is what has heated this planet. Not some barely detectable trace gas.
     
  5. SSDD
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    SSDD Gold Member

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    You would think that an ocean engineer would know this stuff wouldn't you?
     
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  6. flacaltenn
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    flacaltenn Senior Mod Staff Member Senior USMB Moderator Gold Supporting Member

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    Point of interest. With the advent of satellite spectral analysis unhindered by the atmos, we now KNOW that UV content trades power with other bands during the 11 year solar cycle. By an APPRECIABLE amount. And long term over MANY cycles since about 1980s -- UV output has been INCREASING by a modest amount overall.

    If any of the bands in the emission spectrum of GHGases shift like this over time -- the entire GH tuning changes. And we STILL don't have enough data observation to tell. Even miniscule shifts in the CO2/CH4 absorption bands would cough up a 3 watt/m2 diff at the surface.
     
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  7. RollingThunder
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    RollingThunder Gold Member

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    Wrong again, you deluded faker.

    In the real world, visible light penetrates pretty deep, 200 meters and more, and all of the solar energy in the visible, or most energetic, part of the spectrum of solar energy, (the average over the entire earth = 164 Watts per square meter) gets absorbed by the oceans in that distance, thus heating the surface waters of the oceans.....what do you mistakenly imagine that UV light has to do with it? And don't bother to try to claim that 164W/sqm is miniscule. There are one million square meters in every square kilometer, and about 130 million square kilometers of ocean surface. Do the math, if you can.

    The key factor in this matter is the infrared light backradiating from the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that heats the ocean skin layer enough to slow the transport of heat from the oceans to the atmosphere, thus increasing the amount of heat remaining in the oceans.

    How far does light travel in the ocean?
    Light may be detected as far as 1,000 meters down in the ocean, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters.
    NOAA - National Ocean Service
    [​IMG]
    The ocean is divided into three zones based on depth and light level. Although some sea creatures depend on light to live, others can do without it.

    Sunlight entering the water may travel about 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) into the ocean under the right conditions, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters (656 feet).

    The ocean is divided into three zones based on depth and light level. The upper 200 meters (656 feet) of the ocean is called the euphotic, or "sunlight," zone. This zone contains the vast majority of commercial fisheries and is home to many protected marine mammals and sea turtles.

    Only a small amount of light penetrates beyond this depth.

    The zone between 200 meters (656 feet) and 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) is usually referred to as the “twilight” zone, but is officially the dysphotic zone. In this zone, the intensity of light rapidly dissipates as depth increases. Such a miniscule amount of light penetrates beyond a depth of 200 meters that photosynthesis is no longer possible.

    The aphotic, or “midnight,” zone exists in depths below 1,000 meters (3,280 feet). Sunlight does not penetrate to these depths and the zone is bathed in darkness.

    ‘Photic’ is a derivative of ‘photon,’ the word for a particle of light.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  8. Crick
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    Crick Gold Member

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    Why do you have to "penetrate really deep"? Do you have to penetrate really deep into a rock?
     
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  9. mamooth
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    mamooth Gold Member

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    So you're saying sunlight does penetrate rock?

    Is it your claim that if I hold up a thin slab of rock, longwave IR energy from the sun will be passing right through it, with barely any absorbed?

    What about brick? Do you believe longwave IR goes right through that as well? Can I bask in the warm sunlight (at least the longwave IR part) while sitting inside?

    You need to quantify your claims. Just how deeply will sunlight go into a rock? Make sure to back up your claim with evidence.
     
  10. Crick
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    Crick Gold Member

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    I could be quite easily convinced I'm debating a third grader here. What the fuck do you think "heat rises" means? Heat goes in any direction in which it's aimed. Fluids sort themselves out by density, but heat goes wherever it fucking wants to you infantile twat. Let's take some seawater at 0C and HEAT IT UP to 4C. Where will it go? DOWN.

    Jesus... the average temperature of the world's oceans is 3.9C. The oceans have had several billion years to get to their present state. You act as if you had a deadline. If I heat up the skin of the ocean, the FACT that the water below is 24 times more thermally conductive than - has four times the specific heat capacity by mass of - and is not separated by an air/water phasic interface with - the air above it means the VAST majority of that energy is going to go down.

    What did the thermocline text you copied off the net have to do with anything in this conversation? Did you think that made you look smart? Of course the sun is the heat source. It's the heat source for everything on this planet. And who the fuck ever said CO2 was the heat source for anything? CO2 doesn't make heat. It simply slows its escape to space and thus raises the Earth's equilibrium temperature. The world's oceans are heated by radiation from the sun and the atmosphere and conduction from the air it touches. Increasing GHGs in the atmosphere increase its temperature and thus also the amount of radiation striking the ocean surface. The small but significant temperature increase the world's oceans have undergone in the last century and a half is due primarily to the greenhouse effect acting on human GHG emissions. That is what is heating this planet.
     
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