The Harley Mystique

DGS49

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2012
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13,507
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Pittsburgh
I just finished a test ride on a Harley FatBoy...low miles, perfect condition, as beautiful as a cruiser bike can be.

I won't say that it was junk, but if this is the Gold Standard, we are all delusional. While it ran perfectly, it was slow, noisy, and clunky.

Those who read motorcycle magazines and watch the related YouTube videos have undoubtedly seen comparisons between various Harley models and other competitors from Japan, Germany, and even the U.S. In most cases, the Harley is out-performed by virtually every quantitative measure, but the bike journalist writing the piece invariably says something like, "...but the Harley has that indefinable something..." and the decide that the Harley was "better." I have news for you - It wasn't. It isn't.

The basic Harley engine has been fundamentally flawed from the very beginning, and whether you are talking about the 74, the 88, the 96, the 103, or the next two liter bike they will undoubtedly produce, it will still be flawed. 45 degree v-twin, single-pin crank, air cooled. Gimmeabreak. With all their wonderful and costly innovations, they still cannot produce a bike that can match what the Japanese were doing more than thirty years ago, mainly with V-4's. And the sound? A Harley sounds good in one specific and uncommon situation: when it is accelerating away from you. At idle, it sounds like a motor designed by the Three Stooges. Other large displacement bikes can sound nice with the proper pipes, but like the look of the ugly old VW Beetle, people have got used to the sound of Harley's and convinced themselves that it sounds best.

Ironically, the Japanese have been trying for decades to capture some of Harley's monstrous market share by DE-TUNING their bikes and making them more primitive, in the hope that American consumers will notice. Honda even made a virtual carbon copy ("American Classic Edition"), but it never sold all that well. It was also slower than the other comparable Honda's.

But they can't take away any significant part of Harley's market share. Just because they are better than Harley's and cost less doesn't mean they will sell a lot of bikes to "comparison shoppers." BMW has launched a new salvo at Harley with a massive 1.8 Liter opposed twin. While the bike is beautiful to look at, somebody needs to tell the Germans that if you can't have forward controls or at least highway pegs, it will not work.

I'll be buying a new (old) bike in the next couple weeks, but I've crossed Harley's off my list. I can pick up a Kawasaki Nomad for less than four grand, or a Yamaha V-Star 1300 tourer for five. Who needs an overpriced Road King or Heritage Softail with that defective 88 motor? Certainly not me.
 
I just finished a test ride on a Harley FatBoy...low miles, perfect condition, as beautiful as a cruiser bike can be.

I won't say that it was junk, but if this is the Gold Standard, we are all delusional. While it ran perfectly, it was slow, noisy, and clunky.

Those who read motorcycle magazines and watch the related YouTube videos have undoubtedly seen comparisons between various Harley models and other competitors from Japan, Germany, and even the U.S. In most cases, the Harley is out-performed by virtually every quantitative measure, but the bike journalist writing the piece invariably says something like, "...but the Harley has that indefinable something..." and the decide that the Harley was "better." I have news for you - It wasn't. It isn't.

The basic Harley engine has been fundamentally flawed from the very beginning, and whether you are talking about the 74, the 88, the 96, the 103, or the next two liter bike they will undoubtedly produce, it will still be flawed. 45 degree v-twin, single-pin crank, air cooled. Gimmeabreak. With all their wonderful and costly innovations, they still cannot produce a bike that can match what the Japanese were doing more than thirty years ago, mainly with V-4's. And the sound? A Harley sounds good in one specific and uncommon situation: when it is accelerating away from you. At idle, it sounds like a motor designed by the Three Stooges. Other large displacement bikes can sound nice with the proper pipes, but like the look of the ugly old VW Beetle, people have got used to the sound of Harley's and convinced themselves that it sounds best.

Ironically, the Japanese have been trying for decades to capture some of Harley's monstrous market share by DE-TUNING their bikes and making them more primitive, in the hope that American consumers will notice. Honda even made a virtual carbon copy ("American Classic Edition"), but it never sold all that well. It was also slower than the other comparable Honda's.

But they can't take away any significant part of Harley's market share. Just because they are better than Harley's and cost less doesn't mean they will sell a lot of bikes to "comparison shoppers." BMW has launched a new salvo at Harley with a massive 1.8 Liter opposed twin. While the bike is beautiful to look at, somebody needs to tell the Germans that if you can't have forward controls or at least highway pegs, it will not work.

I'll be buying a new (old) bike in the next couple weeks, but I've crossed Harley's off my list. I can pick up a Kawasaki Nomad for less than four grand, or a Yamaha V-Star 1300 tourer for five. Who needs an overpriced Road King or Heritage Softail with that defective 88 motor? Certainly not me.
Heavy low HP and $$$. I laugh when I hear one with a slipping clutch.
 
I just finished a test ride on a Harley FatBoy...low miles, perfect condition, as beautiful as a cruiser bike can be.

I won't say that it was junk, but if this is the Gold Standard, we are all delusional. While it ran perfectly, it was slow, noisy, and clunky.

Those who read motorcycle magazines and watch the related YouTube videos have undoubtedly seen comparisons between various Harley models and other competitors from Japan, Germany, and even the U.S. In most cases, the Harley is out-performed by virtually every quantitative measure, but the bike journalist writing the piece invariably says something like, "...but the Harley has that indefinable something..." and the decide that the Harley was "better." I have news for you - It wasn't. It isn't.

The basic Harley engine has been fundamentally flawed from the very beginning, and whether you are talking about the 74, the 88, the 96, the 103, or the next two liter bike they will undoubtedly produce, it will still be flawed. 45 degree v-twin, single-pin crank, air cooled. Gimmeabreak. With all their wonderful and costly innovations, they still cannot produce a bike that can match what the Japanese were doing more than thirty years ago, mainly with V-4's. And the sound? A Harley sounds good in one specific and uncommon situation: when it is accelerating away from you. At idle, it sounds like a motor designed by the Three Stooges. Other large displacement bikes can sound nice with the proper pipes, but like the look of the ugly old VW Beetle, people have got used to the sound of Harley's and convinced themselves that it sounds best.

Ironically, the Japanese have been trying for decades to capture some of Harley's monstrous market share by DE-TUNING their bikes and making them more primitive, in the hope that American consumers will notice. Honda even made a virtual carbon copy ("American Classic Edition"), but it never sold all that well. It was also slower than the other comparable Honda's.

But they can't take away any significant part of Harley's market share. Just because they are better than Harley's and cost less doesn't mean they will sell a lot of bikes to "comparison shoppers." BMW has launched a new salvo at Harley with a massive 1.8 Liter opposed twin. While the bike is beautiful to look at, somebody needs to tell the Germans that if you can't have forward controls or at least highway pegs, it will not work.

I'll be buying a new (old) bike in the next couple weeks, but I've crossed Harley's off my list. I can pick up a Kawasaki Nomad for less than four grand, or a Yamaha V-Star 1300 tourer for five. Who needs an overpriced Road King or Heritage Softail with that defective 88 motor? Certainly not me.

Well, that's your opinion. Obviously a Harley Davidson's not for you.

I've owned BMW, Honda (still have one), Yamaha, Suzuki, Ducati; you name it. I like Harleys. I rode one of those BMW's and yeah, you're right. without highway pegs and forward controls it's a non-starter for most. I know it was for me. When I rode it, there were no bags available for it. I like having that option, and probably wouldn't buy one if those were not available.

What I find most interesting is this: Those who don't like Harley's really don't like Harley's, often so much to the point that they get insulting about it. But as much as they criticize them, they tend to avoid discussions about how other companies are trying to be like Harley.

Look at the Vulcan Nomad:

2002-Kawasaki-Vulcan1500NomadFib.jpg


Now, look at the Harley Davidson Road King:

2022-05-15.png


It's pretty damn obvious that Kawasaki is going for that Harley vibe. Of course, and to be fair, so is everyone else. I guess my question is, if Harley's are so bad, why is everyone trying to be like them?

As for anything "defective" about them, well, that's just silly. Harley Davidson was founded 119 years ago. They've been in business longer than any other motorcycle manufacturer. If they were defective, they simply wouldn't have lasted this long.

Now, you want a defective bike? I used to have a 1968 BSA Lightning. That thing was a maintenance nightmare...
 
Well, that's your opinion. Obviously a Harley Davidson's not for you.

I've owned BMW, Honda (still have one), Yamaha, Suzuki, Ducati; you name it. I like Harleys. I rode one of those BMW's and yeah, you're right. without highway pegs and forward controls it's a non-starter for most. I know it was for me. When I rode it, there were no bags available for it. I like having that option, and probably wouldn't buy one if those were not available.

What I find most interesting is this: Those who don't like Harley's really don't like Harley's, often so much to the point that they get insulting about it. But as much as they criticize them, they tend to avoid discussions about how other companies are trying to be like Harley.

Look at the Vulcan Nomad:

2002-Kawasaki-Vulcan1500NomadFib.jpg


Now, look at the Harley Davidson Road King:

View attachment 644981

It's pretty damn obvious that Kawasaki is going for that Harley vibe. Of course, and to be fair, so is everyone else. I guess my question is, if Harley's are so bad, why is everyone trying to be like them?

As for anything "defective" about them, well, that's just silly. Harley Davidson was founded 119 years ago. They've been in business longer than any other motorcycle manufacturer. If they were defective, they simply wouldn't have lasted this long.

Now, you want a defective bike? I used to have a 1968 BSA Lightning. That thing was a maintenance nightmare...
Just about every motorcycle manufacturer went with the cruiser style for a looong time because that is what sold. Some like Yamaha and Honda took the Harley cruiser style and made it better, much, much better at a much cheaper price point so in a way it's kinda like comparing apples and oranges. While they look similar they're really not.
Now the trend has gone to more of a sport bike and smaller (cheaper) around town classic style. Heck, check the Yamaha site, other than the Bolt which is a bobber style the only "cruiser" style they have is the VStar 250. Even BMW made a classic cruiser, The R18. Nothing wrong with being a Harley fanboy, I like Harleys but they're out of my price range.
 
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I think it is one of the most interesting aspects of the MC world that "everyone" is desperately trying to capture some of Harley's market share. You could write a small book about what Honda alone has done. Copy? Hell yes, they are copying Harley...not because Harley is GOOD, but because the buying public is - hate to say it - irrational.

Consider the Honda Shadows. Americans wanted V-twins? The Shadow was a whole line of V-twins, but unlike Harley's they didn't vibrate, they were quiet and smooth and efficient. At the same time, they made the V65 Magna, which kinda-sorta looked like a V-twin but made TWICE AS MUCH POWER. Neither bike had any significant success at stealing Harley customers.

Honda then made a Shadow with a single-pin crank so that it would VIBRATE and sound like a Harley. No luck.

Honda brought out the VTX bikes, V-twins that were truly modern, well designed motorcycles, generations ahead of Harley. Yawn.

I'm going out tomorrow to look at a Yamaha Road Star (1600). The biggest production bike in the world when it was introduced, it featured a single-pin crank, air cooling, and enough chrome to cover a battleship. It was a copy, but better. They sold very slowly and now - thank heavens - are cheap as hell as used bikes.
 
Just about every motorcycle manufacturer went with the cruiser style for a looong time because that is what sold. Some like Yamaha and Honda took the Harley cruiser style and made it better, much, much better at a much cheaper price point so in a way it's kinda like comparing apples and oranges. While they look similar they're really not.
Now the trend has gone to more of a sport bike and smaller (cheaper) around town classic style. Heck, check the Yamaha site, other than the Bolt which is a bobber style the only "cruiser" style they have is the VStar 250. Even BMW made a classic cruiser, The R18. Nothing wrong with being a Harley fanboy, I like Harleys but they're out of my price range.

The simple solution is don't buy new. I've owned over 20 Harleys over the years, and every single one of them was used.

There's a local guy here who sells all kinds of motorcycles. He's got a 2013 Harley Ultra Classic, fully dressed, for less than $11K:

00N0N_5kk6hNFsvaKz_0ak07K_600x450.jpg



Too much motorcycle for you? Don't need all those bags? Here's a 2007 Softail Custom for nine grand:

00g0g_4zeYy0xNfLUz_0CI0t2_600x450.jpg



Still too much?

Here's Dyna Low Rider for under 6K:

00q0q_cihSWk4yViVz_0ak07K_600x450.jpg



Patience pays off when shopping for a bike. A friend of mine buys and sells so many bikes he had to build a garage for them all. He always pays under market for them. I think his wife wishes he'd be a bit more patient before buying a bike, but he's always making money when he sells one...
 
The simple solution is don't buy new. I've owned over 20 Harleys over the years, and every single one of them was used.

There's a local guy here who sells all kinds of motorcycles. He's got a 2013 Harley Ultra Classic, fully dressed, for less than $11K:

View attachment 647368


Too much motorcycle for you? Don't need all those bags? Here's a 2007 Softail Custom for nine grand:

View attachment 647369


Still too much?

Here's Dyna Low Rider for under 6K:

View attachment 647371


Patience pays off when shopping for a bike. A friend of mine buys and sells so many bikes he had to build a garage for them all. He always pays under market for them. I think his wife wishes he'd be a bit more patient before buying a bike, but he's always making money when he sells one...
I looked at used mostly in my area were still above $8K, that was over my $5K max budget.
 
There is no denying the Harley is a beautiful bike and sounds great. However driving them is a different experience. I owned Japanese bikes back in the 70s. Some friends I worked with all owned Harleys. I rode one at that time and compared to my new 1977 Suzuki GS 750, they were no fun to ride. I was young and wanted a bike that was fast and handled well.
 
Man, that's not a lot, really.

I took this picture down at Daytona Bike Week in March:

View attachment 647395

The front wheel and tire were $4,700...
That's nutz........ But to each their own.

It's funny, someone doesn't like Harleys and says so then you feel the need to rush in, pro Harley guns a-blazzin', swinging and kicking. Yup, gotta defend your favorite bike because OMG!!!!!! someone doesn't like Harleys........ Now that's funny!!!!!
 
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I just finished a test ride on a Harley FatBoy...low miles, perfect condition, as beautiful as a cruiser bike can be.

I won't say that it was junk, but if this is the Gold Standard, we are all delusional. While it ran perfectly, it was slow, noisy, and clunky.

Those who read motorcycle magazines and watch the related YouTube videos have undoubtedly seen comparisons between various Harley models and other competitors from Japan, Germany, and even the U.S. In most cases, the Harley is out-performed by virtually every quantitative measure, but the bike journalist writing the piece invariably says something like, "...but the Harley has that indefinable something..." and the decide that the Harley was "better." I have news for you - It wasn't. It isn't.

The basic Harley engine has been fundamentally flawed from the very beginning, and whether you are talking about the 74, the 88, the 96, the 103, or the next two liter bike they will undoubtedly produce, it will still be flawed. 45 degree v-twin, single-pin crank, air cooled. Gimmeabreak. With all their wonderful and costly innovations, they still cannot produce a bike that can match what the Japanese were doing more than thirty years ago, mainly with V-4's. And the sound? A Harley sounds good in one specific and uncommon situation: when it is accelerating away from you. At idle, it sounds like a motor designed by the Three Stooges. Other large displacement bikes can sound nice with the proper pipes, but like the look of the ugly old VW Beetle, people have got used to the sound of Harley's and convinced themselves that it sounds best.

Ironically, the Japanese have been trying for decades to capture some of Harley's monstrous market share by DE-TUNING their bikes and making them more primitive, in the hope that American consumers will notice. Honda even made a virtual carbon copy ("American Classic Edition"), but it never sold all that well. It was also slower than the other comparable Honda's.

But they can't take away any significant part of Harley's market share. Just because they are better than Harley's and cost less doesn't mean they will sell a lot of bikes to "comparison shoppers." BMW has launched a new salvo at Harley with a massive 1.8 Liter opposed twin. While the bike is beautiful to look at, somebody needs to tell the Germans that if you can't have forward controls or at least highway pegs, it will not work.

I'll be buying a new (old) bike in the next couple weeks, but I've crossed Harley's off my list. I can pick up a Kawasaki Nomad for less than four grand, or a Yamaha V-Star 1300 tourer for five. Who needs an overpriced Road King or Heritage Softail with that defective 88 motor? Certainly not me.
How to pay 30G for a tractor like POS that will get smoked by a $500 1974 Titan 500. News at 11
 
That's nutz........ But to each their own.

It's funny, someone doesn't like Harleys and says so then you feel the need to rush in, pro Harley guns a-blazzin', swinging and kicking. Yup, gotta defend your favorite bike because OMG!!!!!! someone doesn't like Harleys........ Now that's funny!!!!!

What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm not "pushing" anything. You mentioned how Harleys were out of your price range. Not knowing what your price range was, I showed you examples of Harleys which can be had for a fraction of the price of a new one. I honestly don't give a fuck what someone rides. See, that's the difference between someone like me and someone like you. I don't give a shit, and I've never been critical of someone who rides something else; to each his own, though.

Folks like you, though, always seem to feel the need to criticize Harley riders. I don't know where that comes from, but it's ignorant and stupid. You don't want a Harley? Hey, don't buy a Harley. Problem solved. No need to be a douchebag while riding something else, though.

Besides, this is probably more your speed anyway. It won't be so hard on your vagina:

Vespa-Primavera-125-bianco-My18-00.png

Then again, at $6,500, it's also out of your price range...
 
What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm not "pushing" anything. You mentioned how Harleys were out of your price range. Not knowing what your price range was, I showed you examples of Harleys which can be had for a fraction of the price of a new one. I honestly don't give a fuck what someone rides. See, that's the difference between someone like me and someone like you. I don't give a shit, and I've never been critical of someone who rides something else; to each his own, though.

Folks like you, though, always seem to feel the need to criticize Harley riders. I don't know where that comes from, but it's ignorant and stupid. You don't want a Harley? Hey, don't buy a Harley. Problem solved. No need to be a douchebag while riding something else, though.

Besides, this is probably more your speed anyway. It won't be so hard on your vagina:

Vespa-Primavera-125-bianco-My18-00.png

Then again, at $6,500, it's also out of your price range...
I was talking about the OP and your knee jerk reaction. Oh and I never once criticized Harleys, even stated I liked them, just can't afford em. Looks like you're the one with sand in your vagina.........
 
My Current Harley Collection (Race Ready 2 Cycle MX ) ( Basket Case Parts for a 47 Knucklehead ) and my Bucket list Harleys to get someday are ( 83-4 XR1000 ) ( Late 90s or early 2000s 5 speed Sportster to make into a Clone of an 83-4 XR 1000)
 

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