The Daily Freakout: Solar Energy

[Skull Pilot]

This is a fascintating thread in the way it reveals the thinking of many of the people on this board. From those like Kookybill, rejecting the whole idea without the slightest knowledge of the technology or it's potential, to those that oppose it on the political grounds, in that it is normally associated with 'liberal environmentalists'.

Then we have the hard headed number crunchers, that right now reject this technology because it cannot show an immediate cost return. In spite of the fact that the cost curve on this power is downward, while that of fossil fuels are ever upward. Even without the externalized costs of fossil fuels.

Then those that are cautiously interested. Those are the people that count. They are not going to pay for something that does not have a return in a reasonable time, but they are not going to reject a new technology on the basis of someone's political perceptions or luddite leanings.

In the last five years, I have seen the costs of solar drop by a factor of five, efficiencies jump from a top of 14% to 24%. In the next five, we will see an even greater increase in efficiency, and a drop of a factor of 3.

All of us have solar in our future, whether as individual installations, or installations by our utilities. The major question is whether we will manufacturing it ourselves, or buying from others.

I have no issues with the technology.

My entire argument is that the government is going about alternative energy in the wrong way.

The plain and simple truth is that most people and businesses cannot afford to shell out the kind of money it would take to implement alternative energy, heating and cooling technologies in a meaningful way.

Cash flow is everything and shelling out tens of thousands of dollars when there will be little or no return but for years out is simply not an option. People in government know this and their answer is higher taxes, more restrictions on businesses and "skyrocketing" utility rates.

We know the government has no hesitation to use taxes as a social engineering tool. Just look at what the mortgage interest deduction did for the real estate market. If people who otherwise would not buy a home would do so for a tax deduction of just a few hundred dollars a year, imagine what a 100% tax credit for people and businesses who purchase and install alternative energy, heating and cooling technologies would do.

As I said before, we would see growth in research and development of new technologies . More people would buy and install these systems and the boom in businesses manufacturing, installing and maintaining these new technologies would provide millions of jobs. And as a nice little ancillary benefit, we would be cleaning up the environment and reducing our need for fossil fuels.

All this can happen with the government doing nothing but rewarding people for doing what they want us to do anyway.

 

[Ravi]

This is a fascintating thread in the way it reveals the thinking of many of the people on this board. From those like Kookybill, rejecting the whole idea without the slightest knowledge of the technology or it's potential, to those that oppose it on the political grounds, in that it is normally associated with 'liberal environmentalists'.

Then we have the hard headed number crunchers, that right now reject this technology because it cannot show an immediate cost return. In spite of the fact that the cost curve on this power is downward, while that of fossil fuels are ever upward. Even without the externalized costs of fossil fuels.

Then those that are cautiously interested. Those are the people that count. They are not going to pay for something that does not have a return in a reasonable time, but they are not going to reject a new technology on the basis of someone's political perceptions or luddite leanings.

In the last five years, I have seen the costs of solar drop by a factor of five, efficiencies jump from a top of 14% to 24%. In the next five, we will see an even greater increase in efficiency, and a drop of a factor of 3.

All of us have solar in our future, whether as individual installations, or installations by our utilities. The major question is whether we will manufacturing it ourselves, or buying from others.

It's that good old "conservative" can't do attitude. They were the ones that fussed and moaned that the American Revolution just wasn't cost effective.

 

[skookerasbil]

This is a fascintating thread in the way it reveals the thinking of many of the people on this board. From those like Kookybill, rejecting the whole idea without the slightest knowledge of the technology or it's potential, to those that oppose it on the political grounds, in that it is normally associated with 'liberal environmentalists'.

Then we have the hard headed number crunchers, that right now reject this technology because it cannot show an immediate cost return. In spite of the fact that the cost curve on this power is downward, while that of fossil fuels are ever upward. Even without the externalized costs of fossil fuels.

Then those that are cautiously interested. Those are the people that count. They are not going to pay for something that does not have a return in a reasonable time, but they are not going to reject a new technology on the basis of someone's political perceptions or luddite leanings.

In the last five years, I have seen the costs of solar drop by a factor of five, efficiencies jump from a top of 14% to 24%. In the next five, we will see an even greater increase in efficiency, and a drop of a factor of 3.

All of us have solar in our future, whether as individual installations, or installations by our utilities. The major question is whether we will manufacturing it ourselves, or buying from others.

I have no issues with the technology.

My entire argument is that the government is going about alternative energy in the wrong way.

The plain and simple truth is that most people and businesses cannot afford to shell out the kind of money it would take to implement alternative energy, heating and cooling technologies in a meaningful way.

Cash flow is everything and shelling out tens of thousands of dollars when there will be little or no return but for years out is simply not an option. People in government know this and their answer is higher taxes, more restrictions on businesses and "skyrocketing" utility rates.

We know the government has no hesitation to use taxes as a social engineering tool. Just look at what the mortgage interest deduction did for the real estate market. If people who otherwise would not buy a home would so so for a tax deduction of just a few hundred dollars a year, imagine what a 100% tax credit for people and businesses who purchase and install alternative energy, heating and cooling technologies would do.

As I said before, we would see growth in research and development of new technologies . More people would buy and install these systems and the boom in businesses manufacturing, installing and maintaining these new technologies would provide millions of jobs. And as a nice little ancillary benefit, we would be cleaning up the environment and reducing our need for fossil fuels.

All this can happen with the government doing nothing but rewarding people for doing what they want us to do anyway.

Highly astute post Skull.........unfortunately, unable to be deciphered by the k00ks. Might as well have been written in ancient Latin.

 

[Skull Pilot]

This is a fascintating thread in the way it reveals the thinking of many of the people on this board. From those like Kookybill, rejecting the whole idea without the slightest knowledge of the technology or it's potential, to those that oppose it on the political grounds, in that it is normally associated with 'liberal environmentalists'.

Then we have the hard headed number crunchers, that right now reject this technology because it cannot show an immediate cost return. In spite of the fact that the cost curve on this power is downward, while that of fossil fuels are ever upward. Even without the externalized costs of fossil fuels.

Then those that are cautiously interested. Those are the people that count. They are not going to pay for something that does not have a return in a reasonable time, but they are not going to reject a new technology on the basis of someone's political perceptions or luddite leanings.

In the last five years, I have seen the costs of solar drop by a factor of five, efficiencies jump from a top of 14% to 24%. In the next five, we will see an even greater increase in efficiency, and a drop of a factor of 3.

All of us have solar in our future, whether as individual installations, or installations by our utilities. The major question is whether we will manufacturing it ourselves, or buying from others.

It's that good old "conservative" can't do attitude. They were the ones that fussed and moaned that the American Revolution just wasn't cost effective.

A free market friendly approach such as i have been recommending would do more for alternative energy than all the tax and spend schemes cooked up by the so called liberals combined.

It's the so called liberals who won't do it.

 

[Old Rocks]

Solar energy is going to be a trillion dollar market and will create hundreds of thousands of jobs. The Chinese are poised to capture that market. We should not ignore it.

Then why are the Chinese currently building a power infrastructure of hydro, coal, and nuclear powered plants? Maybe the Chinese know when the sun goes down, people still want to use electricity (and there are not enough batteries in the country to support one city through an entire night). Spain did this; they invested BAM in solar energy, now they are going broke with not to much to show for it. Don't be a sucker. Until there are some real advancement made, coal and nuclear power in the least expensive and most efficient. If you want your energy bill to triple (or more), then support the non-leader in DC.

Just where do you get your information at? China is becoming the world leader in alternative energy.


Report: China trounces U.S. in clean energy - Mar. 25, 2010

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- China overtook the United States in renewable energy investments for the first time ever in 2009, attracting nearly twice as many dollars and becoming the world's largest market for clean energy projects.

Renewable energy investments in China - mostly wind farms - totaled $34.6 billion in 2009, according to report released Thursday by the Pew Charitable Trusts and Bloomberg New Energy Finance. In the United States, $18.6 billion was spent.


The report's authors stressed it was the stable, long-term policies put forth by the Chinese government and easier access to credit that attracted the money, and said the numbers do not bode well for America.

 

[Old Rocks]

And what about the cost of installation?

Buying the panels is only half the battle.

Why should the cost of installing panels be anymore than installing a roof?

The point is that the material and installation costs should be justified, over time, when your utility costs disappear.

HOWEVER: If this is such a great deal, the why aren't all builders offering new homes with solar panel roofs? As it is, few even offer them as an option.

Here is an example......

A 1 KW set up retails for $15K, builder cost roughly $10K, 2.1KW is in the $22K retail and $16K to $17K in cost, the 2.1KW system is the way to go....

In the Houston area we have an entire community dedicated to solar, good looking deal, competitive lot cost, very good school district and in a highly desirable area. The cost marketed to the consumer is roughly $14K more than a Energy Star Home and you get a EFL Home (Environments For Living is a little tighter home, 15 vs 14 SEER AC Unit, CFL's vs incandescent bulbs and Vinyl vs Aluminum windows) plus the IRS gives you a $4,500 Tax Credit for purchasing the home with Solar Panels, BTW there is no incentive for the builder other than the sale of a home.....

This community is average at best for sales, the real challenge is getting it affordable in lower price points, which is very hard to do.....

Your quoted price is way high. Grid tied system for $5850 right here, 1.7 kw;

Grid tie Solar Power Systems - Grid tie Solar Panel Systems

 

[Old Rocks]

At one time the manufacture of automobiles required parts brought in on horse drawn wagons. Your point is?

I was addressing someones claim that alternative energz is automatically cleaner than petroleum based energy.

Of course it is. Both require the present sources of power to build. But one continues to spew poisons into the atmosphere and environment to create more power, the other does not.

Pretty damned obvious that wind, solar, and geo-thermal are automatically cleaner sources of power than oil and coal.

 

[HUGGY]

In a purely capitalistic market forces system US citizens and corporations would be free to sell weapons and technology to Al Quiada. There are such needs as national interests. Arguements that only address the immediate desire to make an instant profit are bad forward thinking.

 

[skookerasbil]

Grid systems!!!!!!!! LMAO............how absurd!!!!


Read here on the lack of efficency of solar power>>> Don?t Get Burned by Solar Power - by Matthew R. Edgar - Environment & Climate News


Its a joke...........absurd.........about as intelligent as advocating for the use of wigs to cure baldness!!!

 

[HUGGY]

Grid systems!!!!!!!! LMAO............how absurd!!!!


Read here on the lack of efficency of solar power>>> Don?t Get Burned by Solar Power - by Matthew R. Edgar - Environment & Climate News


Its a joke...........absurd.........about as intelligent as advocating for the use of wigs to cure baldness!!!

That was your big link? What an idiot.

 

[Ravi]

This is a fascintating thread in the way it reveals the thinking of many of the people on this board. From those like Kookybill, rejecting the whole idea without the slightest knowledge of the technology or it's potential, to those that oppose it on the political grounds, in that it is normally associated with 'liberal environmentalists'.

Then we have the hard headed number crunchers, that right now reject this technology because it cannot show an immediate cost return. In spite of the fact that the cost curve on this power is downward, while that of fossil fuels are ever upward. Even without the externalized costs of fossil fuels.

Then those that are cautiously interested. Those are the people that count. They are not going to pay for something that does not have a return in a reasonable time, but they are not going to reject a new technology on the basis of someone's political perceptions or luddite leanings.

In the last five years, I have seen the costs of solar drop by a factor of five, efficiencies jump from a top of 14% to 24%. In the next five, we will see an even greater increase in efficiency, and a drop of a factor of 3.

All of us have solar in our future, whether as individual installations, or installations by our utilities. The major question is whether we will manufacturing it ourselves, or buying from others.

It's that good old "conservative" can't do attitude. They were the ones that fussed and moaned that the American Revolution just wasn't cost effective.

A free market friendly approach such as i have been recommending would do more for alternative energy than all the tax and spend schemes cooked up by the so called liberals combined.

It's the so called liberals who won't do it.

You want 100% tax credit. I have no argument with that...imo everything a business spends on legitimately should be 100% deductable.

The way I understand the current tax credit...30% the year you purchase and the rest spread out over several years just like a regular capital improvement.

States also have rebate programs. For instance, here is Florida's:


Solar PV Systems

• Residential: $4/watt DC, up to $20,000
• Commercial, Non-profit, Multi-Family and Public Facilities: $4/watt DC, up to $100,000

Add the savings from being off the grid part or full time and the whole thing pays for itself quickly. Then you can give your employee's a raise or hire a new one.

 

[skookerasbil]

Grid systems!!!!!!!! LMAO............how absurd!!!!


Read here on the lack of efficency of solar power>>> Don?t Get Burned by Solar Power - by Matthew R. Edgar - Environment & Climate News


Its a joke...........absurd.........about as intelligent as advocating for the use of wigs to cure baldness!!!

That was your big link? What an idiot.

Indeed s0n..........I guess I'm the idiot here!!!!


But here's the poop for the non-idiots!!! Crap and Tax legislation has as much chance of passing as me driving one of those gay SMARTCARS But you asshats knock yourselves out posting up volumes of threads about grid systems and killowatts and all the other fancy technology. Its election year and the last thing Democrats want to talk about is another job killing bill. Then, when the House goes down in November, Crap and Tax will be a museum piece to be gawked at by the k00ks, set up in a big glass case like a relic of a former era!!! Power = holding coal states. They are already on the cliff for Democrats. Trust me........people in congress would sooner let the k00ks go cliff diving then put their ass out there for some k00k environmental legislation that the nation doesnt want.

 

[skookerasbil]

wigs to cure baldness for the gay................

 

[Old Rocks]

Now Kook, it is obvious that you are an idiot. No need for you to state it.

 

[skookerasbil]

Now Kook, it is obvious that you are an idiot. No need for you to state it.

s0n...............perhaps I am an idiot. To be sure however, I'll take it hands down over being considered a mental case AND having the political IQ of a handball. Most of the environmental mental cases have no concept of the political realities that constrain their cause........like it doesnt exist.


But hey..........we'll see wont we s0n??!!!

 

[HUGGY]

Grid systems!!!!!!!! LMAO............how absurd!!!!


Read here on the lack of efficency of solar power>>> Don?t Get Burned by Solar Power - by Matthew R. Edgar - Environment & Climate News


Its a joke...........absurd.........about as intelligent as advocating for the use of wigs to cure baldness!!!

That was your big link? What an idiot.

Indeed s0n..........I guess I'm the idiot here!!!!


But here's the poop for the non-idiots!!! Crap and Tax legislation has as much chance of passing as me driving one of those gay SMARTCARS But you asshats knock yourselves out posting up volumes of threads about grid systems and killowatts and all the other fancy technology. Its election year and the last thing Democrats want to talk about is another job killing bill. Then, when the House goes down in November, Crap and Tax will be a museum piece to be gawked at by the k00ks, set up in a big glass case like a relic of a former era!!! Power = holding coal states. They are already on the cliff for Democrats. Trust me........people in congress would sooner let the k00ks go cliff diving then put their ass out there for some k00k environmental legislation that the nation doesnt want.

The pride you show in willfull ignorance is astonishing.

 

[Old Rocks]

The price that has been bandied arround for solar seems to be rather high. Twice on this thread, the Dupont 100 watt panels at $120 have been posted. That is $1200 for a 1 kw system. A 1 kw grid tied inverter can be had for less than $2000.

By doing the work yourself, the price of a grid tied 1 kw system looks to be around $5000, with the mounting and wiring. Since that same $2000, with about $500 added, will buy a 4 kw or 5 kw system, a bigger system is much more economical.

By the way, Ravi, congratulations on starting this thread. POVs expressed here are real eye openers.

 

[Old Rocks]

That was your big link? What an idiot.

Indeed s0n..........I guess I'm the idiot here!!!!


But here's the poop for the non-idiots!!! Crap and Tax legislation has as much chance of passing as me driving one of those gay SMARTCARS But you asshats knock yourselves out posting up volumes of threads about grid systems and killowatts and all the other fancy technology. Its election year and the last thing Democrats want to talk about is another job killing bill. Then, when the House goes down in November, Crap and Tax will be a museum piece to be gawked at by the k00ks, set up in a big glass case like a relic of a former era!!! Power = holding coal states. They are already on the cliff for Democrats. Trust me........people in congress would sooner let the k00ks go cliff diving then put their ass out there for some k00k environmental legislation that the nation doesnt want.

The pride you show in willfull ignorance is astonishing.

Everybody has to have something that they excel at.

 

[Meister]

Indeed s0n..........I guess I'm the idiot here!!!!


But here's the poop for the non-idiots!!! Crap and Tax legislation has as much chance of passing as me driving one of those gay SMARTCARS But you asshats knock yourselves out posting up volumes of threads about grid systems and killowatts and all the other fancy technology. Its election year and the last thing Democrats want to talk about is another job killing bill. Then, when the House goes down in November, Crap and Tax will be a museum piece to be gawked at by the k00ks, set up in a big glass case like a relic of a former era!!! Power = holding coal states. They are already on the cliff for Democrats. Trust me........people in congress would sooner let the k00ks go cliff diving then put their ass out there for some k00k environmental legislation that the nation doesnt want.

The pride you show in willfull ignorance is astonishing.

Everybody has to have something that they excel at.

Oh...the irony of your post.

 

[Old Rocks]

Really? And you are differant from Kookybill how?