The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

[DiveCon]

You call this a friendly post?

its more friendly than you have been

You call RGS posts to me friendly?

did i quote RGS?
nope

 

[Foxfyre]

Liberal narcissism and anti-Christian phobia...

Interesting SE. I hadn't seen that perspective written out there quite so explicitly before.

Sky will have to decide if the description fits her. I won't judge her or anybody on anything not revealed in their expressed comments.

Based on those comments though, like many anti-Bush and anti-Christian liberals , if such a discussion as this one continues long enough, Buddhist or not, she is not too enlightened for the true colors of prejudice, loathing, contempt, and judgmentalism, not to mention a whole lot of really wrong notions, to start showing up re both President Bush and Christianity.

You call this a friendly post?

No, not really but neither is it unfriendly. It is honest. You have made it perfectly clear that you fear Christianity more than Islam even after acknowledging that Islam was not what you had assumed it to be and saw it as a violent religion. And you presumably learned that from excerpts of Islam's own sacred writings and comments by one of its representatives posted in this thread.

You have had not one comment to commend Christianity or any Christian which reinforces your obvious contempt for it. And then you dragged poor President Bush into it and made it appear that you considered the evils and perils you see exemplified in him and Christian believers as one and the same. You have made several less than objective, less than loving, and less than nonjudgmental comments about both now. And the more it was pointed out that your contempt and/or fear is misplaced, the more you have been racheting up your contempt for both.

You yourself are usually gentle, intelligent, and sometimes wise, and I have appreciated many of your posts in various threads.

But you are wrong about President Bush in this context and you are wrong about Christianity. And your comments have been coming across as ill informed, judgmental, and prejudicial.

 

[Sky Dancer]

its more friendly than you have been

When you are able to accept that there are extremists in your Christian ranks we'll be making progress. There are Christian dominionists, reconstructionists in America and they seek a theocracy. I pray they don't succeed. The constitution is a secualr document and its is to a secular society that we owe our religious freedom.

do you not understand even what you type?
extremists are extreme
they are a very small minority and would be opposed by people like ME
which i have told you on NUMEROUS occasions
i no more want a theocracy here than you do
i wouldn't want anyone telling ANYONE how or what they can believe
and that is how MOST Christians believe
it has to be a freewill choice
don't you even understand that it was Christians that were persecuted in the Spanish inquisition for not following the RCC
it was a matter of not wanting religion forced on anyone that was part of the FOUNDING of this country
and why many of the early settlers risked everything to leave where they were to come here

Thank you.

The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Family Research Council and Coral Ridge Ministries may be minorities but they are rich ones with lots of clout.

They have considerable poilitical power.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Interesting SE. I hadn't seen that perspective written out there quite so explicitly before.

Sky will have to decide if the description fits her. I won't judge her or anybody on anything not revealed in their expressed comments.

Based on those comments though, like many anti-Bush and anti-Christian liberals , if such a discussion as this one continues long enough, Buddhist or not, she is not too enlightened for the true colors of prejudice, loathing, contempt, and judgmentalism, not to mention a whole lot of really wrong notions, to start showing up re both President Bush and Christianity.

You call this a friendly post?

No, not really but neither is it unfriendly. It is honest. You have made it perfectly clear that you fear Christianity more than Islam even after acknowledging that Islam was not what you had assumed it to be and saw it as a violent religion. And you presumably learned that from excerpts of Islam's own sacred writings and comments by one of its representatives posted in this thread.

You have had not one comment to commend Christianity or any Christian which reinforces your obvious contempt for it. And then you dragged poor President Bush into it and made it appear that you considered the evils and perils you see exemplified in him and Christian believers as one and the same. You have made several less than objective, less than loving, and less than nonjudgmental comments about both now. And the more it was pointed out that your contempt and/or fear is misplaced, the more you have been racheting up your contempt for both.

You yourself are usually gentle, intelligent, and sometimes wise, and I have appreciated many of your posts in various threads.

But you are wrong about President Bush in this context and you are wrong about Christianity. And your comments have been coming across as ill informed, judgmental, and prejudicial.

That's an unfair characterizaton of my position.

 

[DiveCon]

When you are able to accept that there are extremists in your Christian ranks we'll be making progress. There are Christian dominionists, reconstructionists in America and they seek a theocracy. I pray they don't succeed. The constitution is a secualr document and its is to a secular society that we owe our religious freedom.

do you not understand even what you type?
extremists are extreme
they are a very small minority and would be opposed by people like ME
which i have told you on NUMEROUS occasions
i no more want a theocracy here than you do
i wouldn't want anyone telling ANYONE how or what they can believe
and that is how MOST Christians believe
it has to be a freewill choice
don't you even understand that it was Christians that were persecuted in the Spanish inquisition for not following the RCC
it was a matter of not wanting religion forced on anyone that was part of the FOUNDING of this country
and why many of the early settlers risked everything to leave where they were to come here

Thank you.

The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Coral Ridge Ministries may be minorities but they are rich ones with lots of clout.

They have considerable poilitical power.

the CC is a POLITICAL group
the others really are not

 

[Sky Dancer]

do you not understand even what you type?
extremists are extreme
they are a very small minority and would be opposed by people like ME
which i have told you on NUMEROUS occasions
i no more want a theocracy here than you do
i wouldn't want anyone telling ANYONE how or what they can believe
and that is how MOST Christians believe
it has to be a freewill choice
don't you even understand that it was Christians that were persecuted in the Spanish inquisition for not following the RCC
it was a matter of not wanting religion forced on anyone that was part of the FOUNDING of this country
and why many of the early settlers risked everything to leave where they were to come here

Thank you.

The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Coral Ridge Ministries may be minorities but they are rich ones with lots of clout.

They have considerable poilitical power.

the CC is a POLITICAL group
the others really are not

They exert political pressure. They are organized and well funded.

Regarding Coral Ridge Ministeries
http://www.biographyministries.com/coral-ridge-ministries.html

 

[DiveCon]

Thank you.

The Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, Coral Ridge Ministries may be minorities but they are rich ones with lots of clout.

They have considerable poilitical power.

the CC is a POLITICAL group
the others really are not

They exert political pressure. They are organized and well funded.

Regarding Coral Ridge Ministeries
Coral Ridge Ministries Is One Of The Most Listened To In The World.

really?>
you seriously fear this

Dr. James Kennedy last preached at the Presbyterian Church on December 24, 2006. His retirement was officially announced at the church on August 26, 2007, and he went to be with the Lord ten days later.

you know the Presbyterian church is one of the more liberal church groups in the country, right?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You call this a friendly post?

its more friendly than you have been

When you are able to accept that there are extremists in your Christian ranks we'll be making progress. There are Christian dominionists, reconstructionists in America and they seek a theocracy. I pray they don't succeed. The constitution is a secualr document and its is to a secular society that we owe our religious freedom.

There you go again equating a minuscule political movement with no base as somehow more dangerous then extremest Muslims. Why? Because you hate Christians. Any lie, any half truth that fits your hatred is taken as absolute fact. Meanwhile you defend proven murderers, terrorists and extremest. SO tell us Sky what did some mean evil Christian do to you to make you so terrified of nothing?

By the way Independents elect Presidents and our Congress people. The Republicans have maybe 30 percent of registered voters as do the democrats. Independents elect our political figures. With in the Republican party the fundamentalist Christians were booted from power in the 90's. I can assure some even smaller group of people that think the bible should rule us have even less power.

Quit reading shit Rdean makes up out of his head.

Bush was no Conservative. Almost no one in the Republican party thinks he was. He fooled us in 2000 and we voted for him in 2004 because the option was him or Kerry.

 

[Sky Dancer]

the CC is a POLITICAL group
the others really are not

They exert political pressure. They are organized and well funded.

Regarding Coral Ridge Ministeries
Coral Ridge Ministries Is One Of The Most Listened To In The World.

really?>
you seriously fear this

Dr. James Kennedy last preached at the Presbyterian Church on December 24, 2006. His retirement was officially announced at the church on August 26, 2007, and he went to be with the Lord ten days later.

you know the Presbyterian church is one of the more liberal church groups in the country, right?

Pretty silly, isn't it?

D. James Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DiveCon]

They exert political pressure. They are organized and well funded.

Regarding Coral Ridge Ministeries
Coral Ridge Ministries Is One Of The Most Listened To In The World.

really?>
you seriously fear this

Dr. James Kennedy last preached at the Presbyterian Church on December 24, 2006. His retirement was officially announced at the church on August 26, 2007, and he went to be with the Lord ten days later.

you know the Presbyterian church is one of the more liberal church groups in the country, right?

Pretty silly, isn't it?

D. James Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

whats silly is you seem to fear a group started by a guy that died 3 years ago

 

[Sky Dancer]

really?>
you seriously fear this

you know the Presbyterian church is one of the more liberal church groups in the country, right?

Pretty silly, isn't it?

D. James Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

whats silly is you seem to fear a group started by a guy that died 3 years ago

The group is still going on. All fear is ultimately silly. I plead guilty to silly.

"James Kennedy, the Monitor noted, "regularly calls the United States a Christian nation that should be governed by Christians. He has created a Center for Christian Statesmanship in Washington that seeks to evangelize members of Congress and their staffs, and to counsel conservative Christian officeholders."

The Monitor story shows Kennedy manifesting all three characteristic of a dominionist: he is a Christian nationalist; he is a religious supremacist; and his politics are decidedly theocratic. But of the three characteristics, Kennedy would embrace the first, but deny the second and third."
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v19n3/clarkson_dominionism.html

Gary North claims that "the ideas of the Reconstructionists have penetrated into Protestant circles that for the most part are unaware of the original source of the theological ideas that are beginning to transform them." North describes the "three major legs of the Reconstructionist movement" as "the Presbyterian oriented educators, the Baptist school headmasters and pastors, and the charismatic telecommunications system."

What this means is that hundreds of thousands of Pentecostals and charismatic Christians, as well as many fundamentalist Baptists, have moved out of the apolitical camp. Many have thrown themselves into political work--not merely as voters, but as ideologically driven activists, bringing a reconstructed "Biblical world view" to bear on their area of activism.
http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre3.html

 

[DiveCon]

Pretty silly, isn't it?

D. James Kennedy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

whats silly is you seem to fear a group started by a guy that died 3 years ago

The group is still going on. All fear is ultimately silly.

"James Kennedy, the Monitor noted, "regularly calls the United States a Christian nation that should be governed by Christians. He has created a Center for Christian Statesmanship in Washington that seeks to evangelize members of Congress and their staffs, and to counsel conservative Christian officeholders."

The Monitor story shows Kennedy manifesting all three characteristic of a dominionist: he is a Christian nationalist; he is a religious supremacist; and his politics are decidedly theocratic. But of the three characteristics, Kennedy would embrace the first, but deny the second and third."

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

and as long as they dont try to implement any kind of religious dogma as law, who cares?
do you have any proof that they have?
if so, please do show it as i would oppose anyone attempting to install any state sponsored religion as would almost everyone i know'

 

[Sky Dancer]

whats silly is you seem to fear a group started by a guy that died 3 years ago

The group is still going on. All fear is ultimately silly.

"James Kennedy, the Monitor noted, "regularly calls the United States a Christian nation that should be governed by Christians. He has created a Center for Christian Statesmanship in Washington that seeks to evangelize members of Congress and their staffs, and to counsel conservative Christian officeholders."

The Monitor story shows Kennedy manifesting all three characteristic of a dominionist: he is a Christian nationalist; he is a religious supremacist; and his politics are decidedly theocratic. But of the three characteristics, Kennedy would embrace the first, but deny the second and third."

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

and as long as they dont try to implement any kind of religious dogma as law, who cares?
do you have any proof that they have?
if so, please do show it as i would oppose anyone attempting to install any state sponsored religion as would almost everyone i know'

I think we should all care. All of us who value religious freedom ought to care that the US does not become a theocracy.

 

[Foxfyre]

whats silly is you seem to fear a group started by a guy that died 3 years ago

The group is still going on. All fear is ultimately silly.

"James Kennedy, the Monitor noted, "regularly calls the United States a Christian nation that should be governed by Christians. He has created a Center for Christian Statesmanship in Washington that seeks to evangelize members of Congress and their staffs, and to counsel conservative Christian officeholders."

The Monitor story shows Kennedy manifesting all three characteristic of a dominionist: he is a Christian nationalist; he is a religious supremacist; and his politics are decidedly theocratic. But of the three characteristics, Kennedy would embrace the first, but deny the second and third."

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

and as long as they dont try to implement any kind of religious dogma as law, who cares?
do you have any proof that they have?
if so, please do show it as i would oppose anyone attempting to install any state sponsored religion as would almost everyone i know'

As would I. As would any conservative, Republican, liberal, or Democrat, Christian or not, that loved America and respected the Constitution. I think Sky cannot show from ANY credible source that there are 35 million Christian Dominionists out there who intend to do that or take control of any part of any government. I think she would not be able to identify even 35 let alone 35 million.

However, there are probably more than 35 million Muslims out there who would have no problem at all with America being put under Islamic law. Unfortunately the hate-Christian websites all over the internet interpret ANY person identified as a Christian who expresses an opinion as 'forcing their religion on others.' I don't know why it is only Christians who are dangerous if they express their opinion, but sometimes it seems to go that way.

Maybe we need signs or something.

1. Non Republicans, non conservatives, and non Christians are first class citizens who have only the best intentions for their country at heart and their comments are welcome.

2. Moderates are allowed to speak but should not be taken seriously.

3. Christians, most especially Republican or Conservative Chrsitians are dangerous, over reaching, dominionistic, pushy, and threatening to all that is good and wonderful in America and they should be kept silent and out of sight.

(And we'll just ignore the fact that when the country WAS run favorably for Chrsitians and was 95% Christian, no theocracy existed or ever developed. So of course now that this is no longer the case, Christians have become more dangerous.)

 

[Sky Dancer]

The group is still going on. All fear is ultimately silly.

"James Kennedy, the Monitor noted, "regularly calls the United States a Christian nation that should be governed by Christians. He has created a Center for Christian Statesmanship in Washington that seeks to evangelize members of Congress and their staffs, and to counsel conservative Christian officeholders."

The Monitor story shows Kennedy manifesting all three characteristic of a dominionist: he is a Christian nationalist; he is a religious supremacist; and his politics are decidedly theocratic. But of the three characteristics, Kennedy would embrace the first, but deny the second and third."

PublicEye.org - The Website of Political Research Associates

and as long as they dont try to implement any kind of religious dogma as law, who cares?
do you have any proof that they have?
if so, please do show it as i would oppose anyone attempting to install any state sponsored religion as would almost everyone i know'

As would I. As would any conservative, Republican, liberal, or Democrat, Christian or not, that loved America and respected the Constitution. I think Sky cannot show from ANY credible source that there are 35 million Christian Dominionists out there who intend to do that or take control of any part of any government. I think she would not be able to identify even 35 let alone 35 million.

However, there are probably more than 35 million Muslims out there who would have no problem at all with America being put under Islamic law. Unfortunately the hate-Christian websites all over the internet interpret ANY person identified as a Christian who expresses an opinion as 'forcing their religion on others.' I don't know why it is only Christians who are dangerous if they express their opinion, but sometimes it seems to go that way.

Maybe we need signs or something.

1. Non Republicans, non conservatives, and non Christians are first class citizens who have only the best intentions for their country at heart and their comments are welcome.

2. Moderates are allowed to speak but should not be taken seriously.

3. Christians, most especially Republican or Conservative Chrsitians are dangerous, over reaching, dominionistic, pushy, and threatening to all that is good and wonderful in America and they should be kept silent and out of sight.

(And we'll just ignore the fact that when the country WAS run favorably for Chrsitians and was 95% Christian, no theocracy existed or ever developed. So of course now that this is no longer the case, Christians have become more dangerous.)

Keep going. You're on a roll.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You win.

 

[Kalam]

In other words you can murder anyone that gets in your way. Anyone that opposes Islam. Thanks for being honest.

You're welcome.

One must convert or die.

Incorrect.

 

[Kalam]

Well okay, if you MUST have a life independent of USMB.

Oh, I forgot to answer your question.

What I meant by 'aggressor' is the intention to use whatever means are necessary to establish Islamic law and authority where it does not now exist.

Not exactly. I have no interest in fighting for the establishment of Shari'ah in the United States or Sweden, for example. The task at hand is unifying the Muslim world under Islam. Introducing Islam to an overwhelmingly non-believing society would accomplish nothing; this must be preceded by long periods of proselytization and other forms of outreach. I'm only interested in non-Muslim societies insofar as they involve themselves in Islam's affairs. The goal with respect to non-Muslims shouldn't involve forcibly imposing Islamic rule on anyone, it's convincing people that Islam is the right path so that they choose it themselves.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well okay, if you MUST have a life independent of USMB.

Oh, I forgot to answer your question.

What I meant by 'aggressor' is the intention to use whatever means are necessary to establish Islamic law and authority where it does not now exist.

Not exactly. I have no interest in fighting for the establishment of Shari'ah in the United States or Sweden, for example. The task at hand is unifying the Muslim world under Islam. Introducing Islam to an overwhelmingly non-believing society would accomplish nothing; this must be preceded by long periods of proselytization and other forms of outreach. I'm only interested in non-Muslim societies insofar as they involve themselves in Islam's affairs. The goal with respect to non-Muslims shouldn't involve forcibly imposing Islamic rule on anyone, it's convincing people that Islam is the right path so that they choose it themselves.

So you have no problem with Christians exercising what they believe to be their 'great commission' to spread the gospel throughout the Earth? Christians also believe that you cannot force Christianity onto anybody, but is a process of attracting people to know the One who is the right path so that they choose it themselves.

 

[Kalam]

So you have no problem with Christians exercising what they believe to be their 'great commission' to spread the gospel throughout the Earth? Christians also believe that you cannot force Christianity onto anybody, but is a process of attracting people to know the One who is the right path so that they choose it themselves.

I'm not familiar enough with the Sunnah to answer that question authoritatively. I doubt there would be an issue with proselytization by non-Muslims among non-Muslims, but I'm not sure about attempting to convert Muslims to other faiths. Historically, this has been forbidden. I don't know whether it should be or not, so I'll try to do some research.