The Battle: Truth vs. Ideology

[PoliticalChic]

Here is a question for you PC. If FDR had not given assistance to Stalin to wage war with Hitler, could Stalin have withstood the attack by Hitler or would he had been defeated?
Another, if Stalin had been defeated by Hitler and Hitler was able to fold the conquered Russian Army with his divisions not need on an Eastern Front, into Divisions to defend the Western Wall, could an invasion of Europe have been implemented? If so, how many American divisions would have been required?

And I have an answer for you....from experts on the matter:


1. What could, should have happened?
When the (anticipated) event that Hitler would attack Stalin's Russia, as they did June 21st, 1941, America should have done nothing...no more than relaxing restrictions on exports to the Russians...but at the same time securing a quid pro quo for further assistance! Lend-Lease should not have been the automatic and unlimited buffet that it turned into!

"Finally, should the Soviet regime fall,...we should refuse to recognize a Communist government-in-exile, leaving the path clear for establishment for a non-Communist government in Russia after the war." These were the words of Loy Henderson, Soviet and Eastern European affairs expert and Foreign Service officer, as quoted by Martin Weil in "A pretty good club: The founding fathers of the U.S. Foreign Service," p. 106.


2. In a letter to FDR, dated January 29, 1943, William Bullitt (Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed Bullitt the first US ambassador to the Soviet Union, a post that he filled from 1933 to 1936.) warned Roosevelt about what would happen if he continued pursuing the policies of appeasement toward Stalin that formed the foundation of the American war strategy. He pleaded with FDR not to 'permit our war to prevent Nazi domination of Europe to be turned into a war to establish Soviet domination of Europe.'

He predicted the Soviet annexation of half of Europe; George Kennan identified that letter as the earliest warning of what would be the result of FDR's policies.
"For the President Personal & Secret: Correspondence Between Franklin D. Roosevelt and William C. Bullitt," Orville H. Bullitt, p. 575-590


3. Hanson Baldwin, military critic of the New York Times, declares in his book, "Great Mistakes of the War:" 'There is no doubt whatsoever that it would have been to the interest of Britain, the United States, and the world to have allowed and indeed to have encouraged-the world's two great dictatorships to fight each other to a frazzle.'
Baldwin writes that the United States put itself "in the role-at times a disgraceful role-of fearful suppliant and propitiating ally, anxious at nearly any cost to keep Russia fighting. In retrospect, how stupid!"





And, one more question.....between you, Loy Henderson, George Kennan, William Bullitt, and Hanson Baldwin.....

....which has the least expertise on the matter?



On the other hand...which of the five is most devoted to Franklin Roosevelt's iconic image?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Stalin was awesome.

“[The] relationship [between communism and Nazism] may never be fully understood. But the Russian Red Terror, in its emphasis on the elimination of entire classes of peoples, in its description of opponents as "vermin" to be exterminated, does seem like a precursor of the German concentration camps.

Moreover, Nazism profited greatly not only from Lenin's and Stalin's Gulag system--Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz, solicited reports about the operations of Soviet camps--but also from Bolshevism itself, which served as both a whipping boy and, at times, a political idea that could be collaborated with. The two ideologies validated each other.

After World War II, the prestige of the Soviet Union was at its height. The country had fought on the side of the democracies, U.S. war propaganda had painted pipesmoking "Uncle Joe Stalin" as a friendly fellow.

In Europe, communists made a comeback in France, Italy and Germany with the flowering of the myth that communists were merely heroic anti-fascist freedom fighters. Thus the gruesome Soviet record was suppressed.

After the halo wore off the Soviet Union, China emerged as a new beacon for credulous Westerners. .Mr. Margolin writes that "one myth was common in the West: the idea that China was far from being a model democracy, but that at least Mao had managed to give a bowl of rice to every Chinese person." In fact, nothing was further than the truth. Mao, like Stalin deliberately engineered a famine that killed untold millions.”
WALL STREET JOURNAL MONDAY, OCTOBER 25, 1999

 

[Camp]

Ask yourself this: why was it that the USSR, of all the Allies, had provided the enemy with thousands of recruits?

The stupid questions never end with you. You are just so boring. You never answer or respond to critiques and questions that are put to you with academic or intellectual ways. You never have a creative rebuttal. It's always that cut and paste junk you rely on in every thread. You just declare victory and commence with repeating yourself endlessly. Your sources never changes. It is the same old fascist connected and promotional garbage over and over.

Why couldn't you figure out yourself why the USSR had provided the enemy with thousands of recruits? First, thousands is a low number. Try hundreds of thousands. The USSR was made up of dozens of former nations called "Republics" that did not share a language, culture or ethnicity with Russia. To this very day some of them continue to wage insurgencies and and protest against Russian interference.

Those people didn't "go over to the other side", they were already on the other side. They just fought alongside the folks who were fighting the same enemy that they were already fighting.

Of course, you will only respond to the answer provided to you regarding your question if you can find it in one of your fascist sources. Otherwise, me thinks you will be lost and have to change the subject with deflection.

b. The 850,000 strong army of Gen. Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov, having gone to the other side, Germany, "to save their country from Stalin" and having later surrendered to US forces, "formed the core of those forcibly repatriated between 1944 and 1947." "Operation Keelhaul; The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present. by Julius Epstein p.27, 53.


c. Gen. Deniken, former commanding general of the White Russian armies which were supported by the USA in 1917-1920, explained that none of these men served in the Nazi army out of love for Germany..."they hated the Germans" he wrote....rather, they knew what awaited them in the 'Soviet paradise'....as FDR's 'gift'



Only in the USSR....of all Allied nations......

Yet some moron called these folks a "gift" to Stalin....

Who was that moron?

You reinforce my point and take my use the word meant as more of a phrase, out of context without the tinge of sarcasm or different inferences it could imply. So you are having to resort to a kind of "got ya" method of debate and technique for defending your dopey nonsense?

How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment Stalin to the point of Stalin being able to reduce German forces to the point of which it was reduced. Answer the question. You did what I said you would do, you defected away from my questions.

You are in the History Forum promoting a thesis that implies you have knowledge about a specific area of history that is well documented and studied by more people on a global scale than any other area of history. You are proposing this thesis as if you know what you are talking about and have based it on acceptable resources and documentation. I call bull shit.

Yup, I call bull shit. I say you are just attempting to use a huge piece of world history and the accomplishments of a generation of western leaders that kept the world from sinking into fascist totalitarian rule to promote fascism once again. It is happening in Europe today and you are attempting to help it reemerge in America.

You have stupidly followed a few others who have used the original plans of Martin Bormann in his ODESSA operations and your sources can be traced to implementing those plans. You can not escape the implications of the use of Chesly Manly aka Robert McCormick in the American fascist movement and his direct relationship with ODESSA.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The stupid questions never end with you. You are just so boring. You never answer or respond to critiques and questions that are put to you with academic or intellectual ways. You never have a creative rebuttal. It's always that cut and paste junk you rely on in every thread. You just declare victory and commence with repeating yourself endlessly. Your sources never changes. It is the same old fascist connected and promotional garbage over and over.

Why couldn't you figure out yourself why the USSR had provided the enemy with thousands of recruits? First, thousands is a low number. Try hundreds of thousands. The USSR was made up of dozens of former nations called "Republics" that did not share a language, culture or ethnicity with Russia. To this very day some of them continue to wage insurgencies and and protest against Russian interference.

Those people didn't "go over to the other side", they were already on the other side. They just fought alongside the folks who were fighting the same enemy that they were already fighting.

Of course, you will only respond to the answer provided to you regarding your question if you can find it in one of your fascist sources. Otherwise, me thinks you will be lost and have to change the subject with deflection.

b. The 850,000 strong army of Gen. Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov, having gone to the other side, Germany, "to save their country from Stalin" and having later surrendered to US forces, "formed the core of those forcibly repatriated between 1944 and 1947." "Operation Keelhaul; The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present. by Julius Epstein p.27, 53.


c. Gen. Deniken, former commanding general of the White Russian armies which were supported by the USA in 1917-1920, explained that none of these men served in the Nazi army out of love for Germany..."they hated the Germans" he wrote....rather, they knew what awaited them in the 'Soviet paradise'....as FDR's 'gift'



Only in the USSR....of all Allied nations......

Yet some moron called these folks a "gift" to Stalin....

Who was that moron?

You reinforce my point and take my use the word meant as more of a phrase, out of context without the tinge of sarcasm or different inferences it could imply. So you are having to resort to a kind of "got ya" method of debate and technique for defending your dopey nonsense?

How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment Stalin to the point of Stalin being able to reduce German forces to the point of which it was reduced. Answer the question. You did what I said you would do, you defected away from my questions.

You are in the History Forum promoting a thesis that implies you have knowledge about a specific area of history that is well documented and studied by more people on a global scale than any other area of history. You are proposing this thesis as if you know what you are talking about and have based it on acceptable resources and documentation. I call bull shit.

Yup, I call bull shit. I say you are just attempting to use a huge piece of world history and the accomplishments of a generation of western leaders that kept the world from sinking into fascist totalitarian rule to promote fascism once again. It is happening in Europe today and you are attempting to help it reemerge in America.

You have stupidly followed a few others who have used the original plans of Martin Bormann in his ODESSA operations and your sources can be traced to implementing those plans. You can not escape the implications of the use of Chesly Manly aka Robert McCormick in the American fascist movement and his direct relationship with ODESSA.

I notice you declined to answer the question about your 'expertise.'
Clearly you don't have any.

I do....and have documented everything I've posted.

You, with very little effort, have become our main source of greenhouse gases.
....you're the explanation of why the Hindenburg ended up the way it did.




"How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment (sic) Stalin....."


1. Supplies didn't just "flow" to the Soviet Union, they flooded it, including non-military supplies: a tire plant, an oil refinery, pipe-fabricating works, over a million miles of copper wire, switchboard-panels, lathes and power tools, textile machinery, woodworking, typesetting, cranes hoists, derricks, air compressors, $152 million in women's 'dress goods,' 18.4 million pounds of writing paper, cigarette cases, jeweled watches, lipstick, liquor, bathtubs, and pianos.

...217,660,666 pounds of butter shipped to the USSR during a time of strict state-side rationing.
John R. Deane, "The Strange Alliance: The Story of Our Efforts at Wartime Cooperation With Russia," p.94-95.


2. George Kennan wrote: "there is no adequate justification for continuing a program of lavish and almost indiscriminate aid to the Soviet Union at a time when there was increasing reason to doubt whether her purposes in Eastern Europe, aside from the defeat of Germany, would be ones which we Americans could approve and sponsor." George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. xvii.


3. And, what did Roosevelt include in the 'package'?
. "... he was instructed by the White House and State Department to deliver parts for the atomic bomb to the Soviets – at the same time the nation was worried about Russia stealing A-bomb secrets. At first, Congress did not believe him, but his diary filled with dates, shipping manifestos, and names of pilots who flew the missions,..." Major George Jordan

 

[whitehall]

FDR's medical records disappeared from a locked safe and were never seen again. The media at the time wasn't even interested. It's likely that the president had a series of strokes in his 3rd and 4th terms. According to a remarkable book about the US ambassador in Berlin, FDR couldn't care less about Hitler's atrocities. All the convoluted State Dept policy was interested in was whether Germany would pay it's WW1 debt. The systematic anti-Asian racism in the US including the federal government was a big factor in underestimating Japan's military. The appointment of MacArthur as front line commander of the area most likely to be attacked by Japan and the loss of an entire Army four months into WW2 is an indictment of FDR's foreign policy.

 

[Camp]

b. The 850,000 strong army of Gen. Andrei Andreyevich Vlasov, having gone to the other side, Germany, "to save their country from Stalin" and having later surrendered to US forces, "formed the core of those forcibly repatriated between 1944 and 1947." "Operation Keelhaul; The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present. by Julius Epstein p.27, 53.


c. Gen. Deniken, former commanding general of the White Russian armies which were supported by the USA in 1917-1920, explained that none of these men served in the Nazi army out of love for Germany..."they hated the Germans" he wrote....rather, they knew what awaited them in the 'Soviet paradise'....as FDR's 'gift'



Only in the USSR....of all Allied nations......

Yet some moron called these folks a "gift" to Stalin....

Who was that moron?

You reinforce my point and take my use the word meant as more of a phrase, out of context without the tinge of sarcasm or different inferences it could imply. So you are having to resort to a kind of "got ya" method of debate and technique for defending your dopey nonsense?

How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment Stalin to the point of Stalin being able to reduce German forces to the point of which it was reduced. Answer the question. You did what I said you would do, you defected away from my questions.

You are in the History Forum promoting a thesis that implies you have knowledge about a specific area of history that is well documented and studied by more people on a global scale than any other area of history. You are proposing this thesis as if you know what you are talking about and have based it on acceptable resources and documentation. I call bull shit.

Yup, I call bull shit. I say you are just attempting to use a huge piece of world history and the accomplishments of a generation of western leaders that kept the world from sinking into fascist totalitarian rule to promote fascism once again. It is happening in Europe today and you are attempting to help it reemerge in America.

You have stupidly followed a few others who have used the original plans of Martin Bormann in his ODESSA operations and your sources can be traced to implementing those plans. You can not escape the implications of the use of Chesly Manly aka Robert McCormick in the American fascist movement and his direct relationship with ODESSA.

I notice you declined to answer the question about your 'expertise.'
Clearly you don't have any.

I do....and have documented everything I've posted.

You, with very little effort, have become our main source of greenhouse gases.
....you're the explanation of why the Hindenburg ended up the way it did.




"How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment (sic) Stalin....."


1. Supplies didn't just "flow" to the Soviet Union, they flooded it, including non-military supplies: a tire plant, an oil refinery, pipe-fabricating works, over a million miles of copper wire, switchboard-panels, lathes and power tools, textile machinery, woodworking, typesetting, cranes hoists, derricks, air compressors, $152 million in women's 'dress goods,' 18.4 million pounds of writing paper, cigarette cases, jeweled watches, lipstick, liquor, bathtubs, and pianos.

...217,660,666 pounds of butter shipped to the USSR during a time of strict state-side rationing.
John R. Deane, "The Strange Alliance: The Story of Our Efforts at Wartime Cooperation With Russia," p.94-95.


2. George Kennan wrote: "there is no adequate justification for continuing a program of lavish and almost indiscriminate aid to the Soviet Union at a time when there was increasing reason to doubt whether her purposes in Eastern Europe, aside from the defeat of Germany, would be ones which we Americans could approve and sponsor." George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. xvii.


3. And, what did Roosevelt include in the 'package'?
. "... he was instructed by the White House and State Department to deliver parts for the atomic bomb to the Soviets – at the same time the nation was worried about Russia stealing A-bomb secrets. At first, Congress did not believe him, but his diary filled with dates, shipping manifestos, and names of pilots who flew the missions,..." Major George Jordan

At this point, in answer to what my expertise is, I would say it is exposing you as the fake you are.

You have not answered the few simple history questions I asked. Your response was and is to quote opinions by diplomats and political pundits. You are evading the very simple questions that were asked. You quote the machinery and industrial equipment and raw materials shipped to Russia as if you are making some kind of important point. It is doubtful that you have any concept of what those items and material were used for. Even more doubtful that you would know or even have any idea that Russia took those things and produced their own tanks, aircraft and weapons.

So, when the subject is brought into reality of life and death, victory or defeat, and taken away from the realm of political punditry and speculation by wordsmiths, what is the answer to my very basic and fundamental couple of questions?

 

[PoliticalChic]

You reinforce my point and take my use the word meant as more of a phrase, out of context without the tinge of sarcasm or different inferences it could imply. So you are having to resort to a kind of "got ya" method of debate and technique for defending your dopey nonsense?

How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment Stalin to the point of Stalin being able to reduce German forces to the point of which it was reduced. Answer the question. You did what I said you would do, you defected away from my questions.

You are in the History Forum promoting a thesis that implies you have knowledge about a specific area of history that is well documented and studied by more people on a global scale than any other area of history. You are proposing this thesis as if you know what you are talking about and have based it on acceptable resources and documentation. I call bull shit.

Yup, I call bull shit. I say you are just attempting to use a huge piece of world history and the accomplishments of a generation of western leaders that kept the world from sinking into fascist totalitarian rule to promote fascism once again. It is happening in Europe today and you are attempting to help it reemerge in America.

You have stupidly followed a few others who have used the original plans of Martin Bormann in his ODESSA operations and your sources can be traced to implementing those plans. You can not escape the implications of the use of Chesly Manly aka Robert McCormick in the American fascist movement and his direct relationship with ODESSA.

I notice you declined to answer the question about your 'expertise.'
Clearly you don't have any.

I do....and have documented everything I've posted.

You, with very little effort, have become our main source of greenhouse gases.
....you're the explanation of why the Hindenburg ended up the way it did.




"How about you explain the results that would have occurred if FDR had not shown the wisdom to equipment (sic) Stalin....."


1. Supplies didn't just "flow" to the Soviet Union, they flooded it, including non-military supplies: a tire plant, an oil refinery, pipe-fabricating works, over a million miles of copper wire, switchboard-panels, lathes and power tools, textile machinery, woodworking, typesetting, cranes hoists, derricks, air compressors, $152 million in women's 'dress goods,' 18.4 million pounds of writing paper, cigarette cases, jeweled watches, lipstick, liquor, bathtubs, and pianos.

...217,660,666 pounds of butter shipped to the USSR during a time of strict state-side rationing.
John R. Deane, "The Strange Alliance: The Story of Our Efforts at Wartime Cooperation With Russia," p.94-95.


2. George Kennan wrote: "there is no adequate justification for continuing a program of lavish and almost indiscriminate aid to the Soviet Union at a time when there was increasing reason to doubt whether her purposes in Eastern Europe, aside from the defeat of Germany, would be ones which we Americans could approve and sponsor." George C. Herring, "Aid to Russia," p. xvii.


3. And, what did Roosevelt include in the 'package'?
. "... he was instructed by the White House and State Department to deliver parts for the atomic bomb to the Soviets – at the same time the nation was worried about Russia stealing A-bomb secrets. At first, Congress did not believe him, but his diary filled with dates, shipping manifestos, and names of pilots who flew the missions,..." Major George Jordan

At this point, in answer to what my expertise is, I would say it is exposing you as the fake you are.

You have not answered the few simple history questions I asked. Your response was and is to quote opinions by diplomats and political pundits. You are evading the very simple questions that were asked. You quote the machinery and industrial equipment and raw materials shipped to Russia as if you are making some kind of important point. It is doubtful that you have any concept of what those items and material were used for. Even more doubtful that you would know or even have any idea that Russia took those things and produced their own tanks, aircraft and weapons.

So, when the subject is brought into reality of life and death, victory or defeat, and taken away from the realm of political punditry and speculation by wordsmiths, what is the answer to my very basic and fundamental couple of questions?

And please, stop taking quotes from the likes of George Kennan and taking them out of context. You know he changed his opinions later admitted to having those changes of mind. Dropping a name like George C. Herring is equally as dishonest because he quotes Kennan in one of his books is just fraudulent.

"At this point, in answer to what my expertise is, I would say it is exposing you as the fake you are."

That'd be quite a trick: a fake exposing a fake?


So....your defense is that everyone else is dishonest?


Seems to me, dishonesty is your stock in trade.
How long before they add 'syndrome' to your name?

 

[Camp]

I didn't say everyone was dishonest, I said you were for the way you took peoples quotes out of context.

I see I predicted correctly. You will not even attempt to back up your thesis/conspiracy theory with accepted factual data from experts in their fields. Without the political agenda and punditry you have nothing. Revisionist history at it's absolute worst. Horrible execution of an attempt at misdirection and
disinformation.

We build Memorials and Monuments to the Presidents in our Capitol that we as a people judge to be our greatest and most valued men to have held that position in our history. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Roosevelt. Kennedy has a type of monument called the Kennedy Center. But FDR. has a beautiful Memorial that stands between the Jefferson and Lincoln Memorials in the shadow of the Washington Monument. You should go to the FDR Memorial and apologize and give thanks that you aren't speaking German and being forced to say sieg heil everyday. Unless of course you wish that was the way it was, you know, being enthralled by fascism the way you are and all.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I didn't say everyone was dishonest, I said you were for the way you took peoples quotes out of context.

I see I predicted correctly. You will not even attempt to back up your thesis/conspiracy theory with accepted factual data from experts in their fields. Without the political agenda and punditry you have nothing. Revisionist history at it's absolute worst. Horrible execution of an attempt at misdirection and
disinformation.

We build Memorials and Monuments to the Presidents in our Capitol that we as a people judge to be our greatest and most valued men to have held that position in our history. Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Roosevelt. Kennedy has a type of monument called the Kennedy Center. But FDR. has a beautiful Memorial that stands between the Jefferson and Lincoln Memorials in the shadow of the Washington Monument. You should go to the FDR Memorial and apologize and give thanks that you aren't speaking German and being forced to say sieg heil everyday. Unless of course you wish that was the way it was, you know, being enthralled by fascism the way you are and all.

"We build Memorials and Monuments to the Presidents in our Capitol that we as a people judge to be our greatest and most valued men to have held that position in our history."


1. FDR worked assiduously to prop up the homicidal maniac Joseph Stalin....
A suggestion of how Stalin is remembered by elites can be seen in the D-Day Memorial, in Bedford, Virginia.

"The National D-Day Memorial is a war memorial located in Bedford, Virginia.... Bedford was selected for the National D-Day memorial because the town suffered the greatest per capita loss of life during the invasion of any town in the country." National D-Day Memorial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


2. Displayed prominently at the memorial was "...a bust of Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin that was installed at the site..."
National D-Day Memorial Foundation president resigns - NewsAdvance.com : News - Local Lynchburg, Virginia Area

 

[Camp]

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=gsQ5ug1dnT8]How To Throw a Cast Net - YouTube[/ame]

 

[PoliticalChic]

How To Throw a Cast Net - YouTube

Don't you mean you're throwing the white flag???

You're not giving up are you????


There's more to come.......

 

[PoliticalChic]

Question #7. Why did FDR rush to agree with Operation Overlord via western France, as Stalin demanded, rather than via Italy, which had already surrendered?


HB: I have repeatedly answered your question about Italy and provided you with lots of links to make my point. What good does it do. You continue to live in this fantasy world where a 19 month string of battles up the Italian peninsula in WWII didn't happen.



PC: Fantasy?
I'll prove my case with expert witnesses.

Stalin wanted Central and Eastern Europe left for Red Army occupation....so, naturally FDR put pressure on Churchill, and George Marshall, the same, on Eisenhower.

Basically...'I don't care if attack via Italy is the right course....if Uncle Joe wants us to go West, France it shall be!"




a. General Carl Spaatz, American World War II general and the first Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force, and top commander of strategic bombing in Europe, "didn't think OVERLORD [Normandy] was necessary or desirable.

He said it would be a much better investment to build up forces in Italy to push the Germans across the Po, taking and using airfields as we come to them, thus shortening the bombing run into Germany.
"My Three Years With Eisenhower: The Personal Diary of Captain Harry C. Butcher, USNR, Naval Aide to General Eisenhower...," p. 447-448, by Harry C. Butcher



b. General Ira Eaker, "of the United States Army Air Forces during World War II. Eaker, as second-in-command of the prospective Eighth Air Force, "
Ira C. Eaker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia stated that it would be "easier to support a trans-Adriatic operation than the invasion of southern France. The bases, he pointed out, had already been established in Italy.....but the southern France operation would have to be supported from new bases in Corsica. After the meeting was over, General Marshall commented ....to General Eaker: "You've been too damned long with the British."
Hanson W. Baldwin, "Great Mistakes of the War," p. 38-39




c. "One of the few Americans to agree with Churchill and Alexander was Lt. Gen. Mark W. Clark, commander of US Fifth Army in Italy, who said in his 1951 autobiography that "the weakening of the campaign in Italy in order to invade southern France, instead of pushing on into the Balkans, was one of the outstanding political mistakes of the war. The Italian campaign did have military value. It knocked Italy out of the war and it tied down more than 20 German divisions" Churchill?s Southern Strategy



d. Eisenhower himself stated that the Adriatic-Italy attack made more sense:

"Italy was the correct place in which to deploy our main forces and the objective should be the Valle of the PO. In no other area could we so well threaten the whole German structure including France, the Balkans and the Reich itself. Here also our air would be closer to vital objectives in Germany."
FRUS: The conferences at Cairo and Tehran, 1943, p.359-361
That report was published in "Foreign Relations of the United States" in 1961

Eisenhower's statement was to an audience in November 26, 1943....
One month later he was given his fifth star....and changed his mind.



Spaatz, Eaker, Clark, and Eisenhower.....and Churchill.....

....but not Stalin or Roosevelt.


I have an idea: how about you blindly support Roosevelt.

Novel?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Those statements above is out of context.

The one truth was that the south of France invasion was unnecessary and driven by competing interests among the western allies.

 

[Camp]

How To Throw a Cast Net - YouTube

Don't you mean you're throwing the white flag???

You're not giving up are you????


There's more to come.......

Are you on drugs or just as dense as a meteorite?

 

[Camp]

Those statements above is out of context.

The one truth was that the south of France invasion was unnecessary and driven by competing interests among the western allies.

She knows nothing about Dragoon and the quotes she is using were made before the allies understood the stand Germany would make in Italy. She had not read or paid attention to any of the posting I made regarding the campaign in Italy. She is still talking about Valle de Po without the knowledge of what it was or what it is about. This even though I posted a complete and precise history of the battle with a synopsis of the Italian campaign.

She is to lazy to read a military history and thus discover that her entire concept and thesis is based an the ridiculous assertion that a southern invasion was not attempted or even occurred. She is in a history forum but completely ignoring dates of events. It is comical.

http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/po/72-33.htm

You can even learn some of this stuff watching television.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjF6oGr-Mjw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjF6oGr-Mjw[/ame]

 

[PoliticalChic]

Well, this is it! Coming up, the last of the questions under discussion.

Being totally unbiased and objective, who, but I, could be in a better position to judge this battle?

Silly question....of course, moi.



And judge, I have. The bad new: you have lost each and every one of the first seven rounds. A shocking "zero" out of seven!
I've bent over backwards to try to find some points for you...but this isn't government school! There are actually right answers.......mine.



Now for the worse news: the last question coming up, and your chances to recoup any succor aren't looking good.
Here we go:







Question #8. When Alger Hiss was exposed as a Soviet spy...why did Roosevelt promote him?

HB: Finally, Hiss, scholars have been debating him for years. That debate will go on forever unless someday the US declassifies documents to show what some speculate was a counter intelligence effort and operation that makes him an unrecognized hero.





PC: Did you actually suggest that Hiss is a "hero"?????
Oh, boy.



a. Alger Hiss succeeded in becoming part of the American delegation at Yalta. Stalin managed to win the policy debates, mainly about the future of Poland (which had been conceded to Soviet dominance at Tehran) since he was kept informed about classified intelligence.

An idea as to how important Hiss was to Moscow is conveyed by Moscow’s congratulations to Hiss. Gorsky reported… in March 1945, after a meeting between Akhmerov and Hiss: ‘Recently ALES (Hiss) and his whole group were awarded Soviet decorations. After the Yalta conference, …passed on to him their gratitude and so on.’ ”
‘The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives, the History of the KGB,” by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin.p.134 (quoting the Venona decrypts)



b. Why was Hiss decorated by a grateful Stalin? On February 11, 1945, millions of people living in Eastern Europe, and another two million scattered by the war in other parts of Europe were given a life sentence- and in many cases, a death sentence. They had been condemned to Stalin's custody by the Allied agreement to Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe at Yalta. Why not? Hiss had ensured the destruction of the anti-Bolshevik masses in free Europe.
West, "American Betrayal," p. 231-232.

Between 2 and 4 million were forcibly transferred, many of whom became slave laborers in the Gulag. " Operation Keelhaul; The Story of Forced Repatriation from 1944 to the Present." by Julius Epstein







c. “To many, Mr. Hiss was a traitor whose case proved beyond doubt the existence of Communist penetration of the Government. As the columnist George Will put it, Mr. Hiss's claim to innocence had become ''one of the long-running lies of modern American history.” (Alger Hiss, Divisive Icon of the Cold War, Dies at 92 - NYTimes.com)






d. Venona evidence regarding Alger Hiss is less conclusive, though it was sufficient for a bipartisan Commission on Government Secrecy, headed by Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan to conclude "The complicity of Alger Hiss of the State Department seems settled. As does that of Harry Dexter White of the Treasury Department."[24] Whittaker Chambers - New World Encyclopedia




e. And, from the CIA report:

" With only Hiss reasonably fitting the criteria of VENONA 1822, the accused spy's defenders largely fell silent on the issue of whether he had committed espionage, and instead fell back to discussions about the degree of harm Hiss and other Soviet spies might have done and whether their importance had been exaggerated by overzealous anticommunists..... Their case became even weaker in 2005, when NSA finally released the original Russian of the ALES cable, which conclusively showed that its English version had been correctly translated."
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...l51no4/the-mystery-of-ales.html#pgfId-1052264




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEQCUgOxShc]BaZing! - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JakeStarkey]

PC and her defense reminds me of many of the priest fascists within the Pius XI primacy and his ultimate failure in his attempt for a successful interaction with Il Duce.

The Pope and Mussolini The Secret History of Pius XI and the Rise of Fascism in Europe By David I. Kertzer
http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm/book_number/3028/the-pope-and-mussolini

They shared a distrust of democracy and a visceral hatred of Communism. Both were prone to sudden fits of temper and were fiercely protective of the prerogatives of their office. ("We have many interests to protect," the Pope declared, soon after Mussolini seized control of the government in 1922.) Each relied on the other to consolidate his power and achieve his political goals.

In a challenge to the conventional history of this period, in which a heroic Church does battle with the Fascist regime, Kertzer shows how Pius XI played a crucial role in making Mussolini's dictatorship possible and keeping him in power. In exchange for Vatican support, Mussolini restored many of the privileges the Church had lost and gave in to the pope's demands that the police enforce Catholic morality. Yet in the last years of his life - as the Italian dictator grew ever closer to Hitler - the pontiff's faith in this treacherous bargain started to waver. With his health failing, he began to lash out at the Duce and threatened to denounce Mussolini's anti-Semitic racial laws before it was too late. Horrified by the threat to the Church-Fascist alliance, the Vatican's inner circle, including the future Pope Pius XII, struggled to restrain the headstrong pope from destroying a partnership that had served both the Church and the dictator for many years.

 

[regent]

Using Chic's reasoning on this thread when the USSR recognized Israel in 1948 it was evidence that Stalin was secretly Jewish or wanted to become Jewish.

 

[PoliticalChic]

PC and her defense reminds me of many of the priest fascists within the Pius XI primacy and his ultimate failure in his attempt for a successful interaction with Il Duce.

The Pope and Mussolini The Secret History of Pius XI and the Rise of Fascism in Europe By David I. Kertzer
The Pope and Mussolini summary and reviews

They shared a distrust of democracy and a visceral hatred of Communism. Both were prone to sudden fits of temper and were fiercely protective of the prerogatives of their office. ("We have many interests to protect," the Pope declared, soon after Mussolini seized control of the government in 1922.) Each relied on the other to consolidate his power and achieve his political goals.

In a challenge to the conventional history of this period, in which a heroic Church does battle with the Fascist regime, Kertzer shows how Pius XI played a crucial role in making Mussolini's dictatorship possible and keeping him in power. In exchange for Vatican support, Mussolini restored many of the privileges the Church had lost and gave in to the pope's demands that the police enforce Catholic morality. Yet in the last years of his life - as the Italian dictator grew ever closer to Hitler - the pontiff's faith in this treacherous bargain started to waver. With his health failing, he began to lash out at the Duce and threatened to denounce Mussolini's anti-Semitic racial laws before it was too late. Horrified by the threat to the Church-Fascist alliance, the Vatican's inner circle, including the future Pope Pius XII, struggled to restrain the headstrong pope from destroying a partnership that had served both the Church and the dictator for many years.

"PC and her defense...."


Defense of what, you moron?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Using Chic's reasoning on this thread when the USSR recognized Israel in 1948 it was evidence that Stalin was secretly Jewish or wanted to become Jewish.

This post is almost as stupid as the post just prior to yours......

Almost....

He gets the nod because he has far more experience at being stupid than you do.