The Art of War is Simple.....

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by scubamike
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The usage of Islam to justify the attacks on Americans is little different to Bush's Christian basis. Religion is always used to provide ultimate justification for one's actions.
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Except that Christianity is not geared towards terrorism and in its contemporary form in the united states does not condone it. Witness the shame of timothy McVeigh. Religion may always be used to justify what cannot be justified rationally, if you are religious, but few if any found justification for that. I am agnostic and don't find bush to be overly zealous. Though you could say he looks to God for solace. That is the outward impression I get from listening to bush's speeches. Bush doesn't use religion to justify his acts. Quote something where he literally says "God commanded me to do such and such," you won't find it. Christianity is not set up for him to do so.

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As for terrorism methods, I was talking about methodology. Targeting civilians to harm a militarily stronger nation.
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Targetting civilians is as old as warfare. Pre 20th century land armies not only involved tens of thousands of military deaths per battle, heavy encampments blighted the land in which they fought and civilians were harassed or killed at the mercy of the individual soldier or commander if they were fighting on foreign soil. Pre war of the roses whole cities were slaughtered because the guardians denied the invading force. General Sherman raped and pillaged through the south on the basis that it would ruin southern resolve, but they were already losing in military strength.


All the Muslims I know (we have many here in NZ) are very against everything the militants do in the name of Islam, which is a religion of peace (much like Christianity, known for Inquistions and Crusades).

They must see what is happening and be appalled that the contemporary acts of their fellow islamists in today's peace loving world are comparable to the darkest period in christian history, some four centuries old.




That is because they are more familiar with the use of force to decide anything.

All the reason more not to trust their judgement or answer to their calls for retreat. But honestly I don't buy that. There are many muslims who are familiar with the use of force who do not want to see it continue to be a defining factor of their culture. They are the ones to whom we should give a voice and defend.

Anger is easier to get to than the kind of feeling needed for passive resistance.

The easy path is the dark path to evil and from it no one has ever returned, but as a simple toe-haired midwestern farm boy, I must try to bring him back.

More seriously, anger is often fueled by irrational desires, radical Islam falls into that category. Simply by its being harder to come by, massive passive resistance is all the more genuine and therefore what should be watched for and responded to. There are 23 million Iraqis that can do this rather than murder their fellow citizens.


And those who are anti-American would be equally inclined to kill those who demonstrate peacefully (or infiltrate and incite violence).
Let's face it, if you are an armed militant what better place to attack from than from the midst of a peaceful rally.

On the first point , if they murdered peaceful demonstrators purposefully, I am almost 100% sure that would earn them enmity of most muslims, and we could easily use that to gather information and hunt them down.

The second point depends on the self control of those policing the rally. I think there have been several such incidents where a gunman in the crowd tries to rile the soldiers cordoning it and non terrorist casualties result. That is a problem we should be doing our best to ensure that our own don't inflict casualties, but at the same time we need snipers to identify and take out the militants before they kill the innocents. All depends on the morale and conviction of the soldiers to do the right thing.


Yup, NZ really is that beautiful. And there is so much of it. Most beautiful place on Earth and to date I have been to around 20 different countries....

Colorado is almost as beautiful, especially in early summer when the wild flowers are all in bloom. I'm probably going there this summer.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by nbdysfu
Originally posted by scubamike
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The usage of Islam to justify the attacks on Americans is little different to Bush's Christian basis. Religion is always used to provide ultimate justification for one's actions.
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Except that Christianity is not geared towards terrorism and in its contemporary form in the united states does not condone it. <snip> Bush doesn't use religion to justify his acts. Quote something where he literally says "God commanded me to do such and such," you won't find it. Christianity is not set up for him to do so.

Islam is not geared towards terrorism either. Nor does it condone it. The militant extremist versions used as justification by terrorists have their own counterparts in some of the American "Christian" cults.

As for Bush, there is so much material in the left-wing media that I am having a hard time finding a centrist supporting article. That and the fact I ran a half-marathon and gave a pint of blood today. Seriously.

More seriously, anger is often fueled by irrational desires, radical Islam falls into that category. Simply by its being harder to come by, massive passive resistance is all the more genuine and therefore what should be watched for and responded to. There are 23 million Iraqis that can do this rather than murder their fellow citizens.

Anger is a pretty common result of pain and suffering. Many people have lost friends and family as a clear result of US foreign policy over Israel and the Middle East as a whole. People in pain and suffering generally are not well known for responding in an emotionless and rational manner. The same can be seen within the US with people who have lived their lives in severe economic and social deprivation.

And those who are anti-American would be equally inclined to kill those who demonstrate peacefully (or infiltrate and incite violence).
Let's face it, if you are an armed militant what better place to attack from than from the midst of a peaceful rally.

To clarify my point I meant those who use a peaceful protest as cover to carry out an attack, which of course immediately brands the protest as a violent one.

Yup, NZ really is that beautiful. And there is so much of it. Most beautiful place on Earth and to date I have been to around 20 different countries....

Colorado is almost as beautiful, especially in early summer when the wild flowers are all in bloom. I'm probably going there this summer. [/B]

Colorado is quite nice. I was there in '95 for 3 months rock-climbing (and Arizona, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, California, etc.) Coke from a vending machine US$2 in Anaheim, L.A. or $0.25 from one at a petrol station in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico.

 

[menewa]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving."

Ulysses S. Grant (1822 - 1885)

I don't think referring to Grant as an authority on military mastery is very appropriate. The only reason he defeated the South was shear numbers. The casualty deaths from Civil war battles routinely demonstrate the North taking much heavier death tolls than the South.
Also, Grant suffered from depression and alcoholism (he drank himself to death in fact, kinda like Jack Kerouac).
His straight-forward battle tactics would have definitely failed if the South had had access to as much man power and artillery as the North possessed.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by menewa
I don't think referring to Grant as an authority on military mastery is very appropriate. <snip>
His straight-forward battle tactics would have definitely failed if the South had had access to as much man power and artillery as the North possessed.

"The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving."

Such a strategy implies attacking even when conditions are not conducive to victory.
One does not attack a well-dug-in force from open ground for example, as Grant was wont to do.
His strategies often showed an overcommital of forces, and a stretching of easily disrupted supply lines. But then it is effectively a soundbite. Quotes are great for arguements, but not much use for battle strategy.

 

[nbdysfu]

Originally posted by scubamike
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Islam is not geared towards terrorism either. Nor does it condone it. The militant extremist versions used as justification by terrorists have their own counterparts in some of the American "Christian" cults.
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American "Christian" Cults? You mean like Waco ? Bill Clinton and the FBI showed them what for. Is there a Christian-Crusade wing blowing up embassies in Iran and taking hostages in Saudia Arabia? No? China perhaps? Granted there are a few small and ineffective militant branches in the boonies that couldn't jihad their own outhouse, but that's not my point. Western Christianity as a whole would condemn any action by such militants in their name, and actively seek to declare it outcast and hunt it down. I have read many articles condemning Islamic terrorism from lone voices, I have seen as many thumbing their noses and saying we deserve it. Officially terrorism is only really reprehensible and even worthy of response when it is conducted against other muslims. I've been in catholic shool and I've been given a wandering lecture from my southern presbyterian grandmother for not being baptized, and I've even been to bible camp in my youth and they used velcro puppets to teach me about joseph and the technicolor dreamcoat, not how such and such blew up the Israeli pizza parlor on holiday. Christian fanatics look more like Ned Flanders than anything else.

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As for Bush, there is so much material in the left-wing media that I am having a hard time finding a centrist supporting article. That and the fact I ran a half-marathon and gave a pint of blood today. Seriously.
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See this thread


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Anger is a pretty common result of pain and suffering. Many people have lost friends and family as a clear result of US foreign policy over Israel and the Middle East as a whole. People in pain and suffering generally are not well known for responding in an emotionless and rational manner. The same can be seen within the US with people who have lived their lives in severe economic and social deprivation.
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In regards to the Israeli conflict, I could say many people have lost lives as a result of Arabic suprematism. Blaming every problem on the US is part of the problem in regard to Islam being able to check its 'militant' factions.

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To clarify my point I meant those who use a peaceful protest as cover to carry out an attack, which of course immediately brands the protest as a violent one.
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As I said I agree that this is a problem, but if the police have to stand down from a riot every time someone waves a gun, what's next?


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Colorado is quite nice. I was there in '95 for 3 months rock-climbing (and Arizona, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, California, etc.) Coke from a vending machine US$2 in Anaheim, L.A. or $0.25 from one at a petrol station in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico.
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Ouch. that's worse than New York.

 

[KarlMarx]

Originally posted by FrIeDRice
u Americans are idiots for making so many people hate you in the first place i meen teroist are insane manicas that fight for a cause they see as totaly right and are vertually impossble to sway the other way. and if you read chinese art of war you should know that morel is the key to winning and these dudes have the highest morel around, after all their willing to kill them selfs

personaly i see america goin down in the future.. they just wasted a whole lot of cash for bearly any profit in the war on iraq and they got a whole bunch of insane people after them that have access to explosives

NOW IF U THINK THIS IS GOOD WAR TACTICS THEN URE A $#@% IDIOT

Yeah, we make everyone hate us alright. Like freeing Europe from Nazism and Fascism, liberating Japan and most of Asia during World War II. Helping to bring about the downfall of communism. Americans sent their sons and daughters to die helping to free other countries when many of those countries could not or would not do anything to free themselves. Whenever there is a major disaster e.g. as an earthquake or famine in another country, America is the first nation to offer help and send money, even to our enemies. Americans are the most generous people on the planet, bar none. That's how we made the rest of the world hate us.

After 9/11 not one country offered to help us in any substantial way, in fact, in some countries people danced for joy in the streets because we were attacked. If it were up to me, I would have nuked Mecca and Medina in retaliation (during the Hajj) .

So considering all that, let this ugly American (who by the way, is also the son of immigrants) give you some advice. Go back where you came from you arrogant son of a bitch and take your stinking extended family with you. If you hate America and Americans, go back to the rathole of a country you came from, maybe if you're lucky, they still have a shack that you all can live under. We don't need you or the likes of you.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by KarlMarx
Yeah, we make everyone hate us alright. Like freeing Europe from Nazism and Fascism, liberating Japan and most of Asia during World War II. Helping to bring about the downfall of communism. Americans sent their sons and daughters to die helping to free other countries when many of those countries could not or would not do anything to free themselves. Whenever there is a major disaster e.g. as an earthquake or famine in another country, America is the first nation to offer help and send money, even to our enemies. Americans are the most generous people on the planet, bar none. That's how we made the rest of the world hate us.

-Communism was the reason for the downfall of communism. Capitalism just managed to outlast it.
-Freeing Europe?!? For years the rest of the western world was fighting and dying while America clung to its isolation. Hell, the Bush family itself was supplying Hitler with steel. As for sending so many of Americas "sons and daughters" New Zealand sent 4 times as many on a per capita basis. And right from the out-break of war, not years later.
Let's face it without Pearl Harbour would America even have bothered helping Europe?
-As for humanitarian aid, America is the lowest contributor of humanitarian aid per capita in the OECD. Saudi Arabia is the highest!! But America remains the world leader for military aid. Mostly to Israel, which is part of the reason why so many people hate Americans.

After 9/11 not one country offered to help us in any substantial way, in fact, in some countries people danced for joy in the streets because we were attacked. If it were up to me, I would have nuked Mecca and Medina in retaliation (during the Hajj) . [/B]

After 9/11 there was worldwide sympathy except from those who suffered (and continue to suffer) due to US foreign policy. But Bush has managed to piss it all away.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by nbdysfu

Is there a Christian-Crusade wing blowing up embassies in Iran and taking hostages in Saudia Arabia? No? China perhaps?[/B]

KANO, Nigeria : More than 200 Muslims are dead and 120 missing after Christian militia attacked a central Nigerian town, one of Nigeria's most senior Islamic leaders said, branding the assault "mass murder".

Full Story

 

[KarlMarx]

Originally posted by scubamike
-Communism was the reason for the downfall of communism. Capitalism just managed to outlast it.
-Freeing Europe?!? For years the rest of the western world was fighting and dying while America clung to its isolation. Hell, the Bush family itself was supplying Hitler with steel. As for sending so many of Americas "sons and daughters" New Zealand sent 4 times as many on a per capita basis. And right from the out-break of war, not years later.
Let's face it without Pearl Harbour would America even have bothered helping Europe?
-As for humanitarian aid, America is the lowest contributor of humanitarian aid per capita in the OECD. Saudi Arabia is the highest!! But America remains the world leader for military aid. Mostly to Israel, which is part of the reason why so many people hate Americans.




After 9/11 there was worldwide sympathy except from those who suffered (and continue to suffer) due to US foreign policy. But Bush has managed to piss it all away.

Nice pie in the sky ideas, but only pie in the sky ideas.

Communism was defeated because of American will. Communism didn't just wither up and die by itself. From the 1950s-1980s, communist regimes were being actively established (remember the Sandinistas?). Communism was defeated because America decided that it was a threat.

Saudi Arabia is the highest per capita contributer for humanitarian assistance? Does that include the over 80 billion dollars that the Saudis have funnelled to terrorist organization via Islamic "charities"?

America was actively involved in the war effort BEFORE Pearl Harbor. There was the lend/lease program to the Brits etc. FDR, the Ameican president, pushed hard to get us involved in the War in Europe, but thanks to a strong pacifist movement here in the US, the Congress wouldn't think of it. Strange, how that reminds me of the present day! So, pal, if it weren't for the US involvement in World War II, you'd be speaking Japanese today (and very likely you'd be a slave of the Japanese!). The Japanese attacked the US partly because of our embargo of their nation because of the atrocities that they committed in Manchuria.

400,000 American men and women died in World War II. We sent several million men and women overseas and the American taxpayer footed the bill. Americans also helped rebuild Europe and Japan after the war (ever hear of the "Marshall Plan"?).

As for supporting Israel, so what? Let's face it, if we didn't support Israel militarily, the Arabs would finish what Hitler started i.e. the "final solution". Israel and the Jews have a right to exist. Period. Israel is also one of the few democracies in the Middle East, which is another reason that the Arab countries hate them. I suppose that if the rest of the world hates us for supporting Israel, why do they feign such self righteous indignation at the Holocaust? If the Jews had a place to live, that wouldn't have happened. Why? Because it is easier to appear righteous than to do right. That's the difference between the US and many countries that oppose our efforts to wipe out terrorism.

As for Bush "pissing it all away". If it were up to Europe and the UN, Al Quada would still be alive and well and probably nuking or gassing people en masse now. The war against terrorism is the same as the war against Nazism and Communism, just because you and most people in the world don't see it that way doesn't change things.

The UN didn't do too much to stop the atrocities in the Balkans either. Clinton sent troops there to stop things (actually Bush Sr had already approved deploying troops, Clinton didn't stop it, which is one of the few things that he did right) IN SPITE OF the fact that the UN Security Council vetoed it (much like the Iraq war). Of course, because Clinton was a left wing liberal, the US media looked the other way and didn't make an issue out of it. Therefore, the rest of the world didn't make too much of a fuss over it either. If he hadn't done anything, people would be dying in the Balkans today (many of which, by the way, are Moslem).

Clinton is really the one who managed to "piss it all away, since he didn't do much to combat terrorism (by the way why didn't HE testify before the 9/11 commission?). Thanks to Clinton's policies e.g. the Torrecelli Policy, his gutting of the US defense and intelligence capabilities, attacks on the USS Cole, our embassies in Africa and yes 9/11 were possible. He also did nothing about the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993 except to treat it like a criminal matter rather than the act of war that it was.

Another opportunity that was "pissed away" was in 1991, when Bush Sr. made the terrible mistake of listening to the UN and didn't march on Baghdad. If he done that, the rest of the world would have been pissed off at him, but over 300, 000 Iraqis would still be alive and many more wouldn't be missing body parts e.g. tongues, eyes, arms, genitals etc. Of course, the UN did nothing while Saddam Hussein broke resolution after resolution and kicked out the UN weapons inspectors (of course, Clinton didn't do anything either, except fire a few missiles at some camels). And of course, France, Russia and Germany in direct violation of UN resolutions were providing weaponry to Saddam's regime. And let's not forget the now mostly forgotten "oil for food" program that the UN was supposed to be overseeing that helped to line Saddam's pockets with billions of dollars as well.


P.S. the reason that we provide so much military aid is because other countries ASK FOR IT. The reason that many countries around the world spend so little on defense is because America spends so much. If you looked at the makeup of the troops that the UN deploys around the world, a great many of them (actually most of them) are American. New Zealand and Australia and other countries are defended with the cooperation of the American military. The only reason the Chinese haven't invaded as far south as Wellington is because of American nukes. So sleep well tonight, Uncle Sam is helping your military to defend you.

 

[scubamike]

America was involved supporting both sides in WWII. And it profited greatly from the loans, etc to Britain. It also got a lot back in terms of reparations and business opportunity.


Yes, America committed a fair number of troops, but as I pointed out earlier, on a per capita basis New Zealand commited four times as many and right from the start.
And the NZ taxpayer footed that bill. Which was more than four times as much as we are so much further away. And we had (and have) a much lower GDP.
So, we commited more, sooner, further and paid more than America.


Um, how exactly did America "defeat" communism? Seemed to lack ANY supporting arguement there.


As for the "war on terror", the actions taken by the UN and Europe have created less hatred than America. Europe has been largely effective to date although of course there is still much to be done. And before you say "Madrid", 9/11.

 

[freeandfun1]

Originally posted by scubamike
Yes, America committed a fair number of troops, but as I pointed out earlier, on a per capita basis New Zealand commited four times as many and right from the start.
And the NZ taxpayer footed that bill. Which was more than four times as much as we are so much further away. And we had (and have) a much lower GDP.
So, we commited more, sooner, further and paid more than America.

Um, how exactly did America "defeat" communism? Seemed to lack ANY supporting arguement there.

As for the "war on terror", the actions taken by the UN and Europe have created less hatred than America. Europe has been largely effective to date although of course there is still much to be done. And before you say "Madrid", 9/11.

1. you had to supply more troops dipshit cuz you are part of the crown. end of story. new zealand is more like a US state than an independent country.

2. US defeated communism by outspending the Soviets during the coldwar and by facing down the Soviets in Europe and elsewhere. Study up.

3. The UN and Europe have done more to appease terrorism than anything. They (Europe) at one time appeased Hitler too and we see where that got them.

Are you really as ignorant as your posts portray? If so, I hope you are just one bad example of the Kiwis and not the norm.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by freeandfun1
1. you had to supply more troops dipshit cuz you are part of the crown. end of story. new zealand is more like a US state than an independent country.

As for NZ being like a US state. No, we don't pay taxes to Britain, etc. New Zealand's Declaration of Independence was over 100 years before WWII started (1835). We sent troops because our (European) people came from Britain originally. Much like the USA. It would've saved the lives of millions if American isolationism hadn't slowed America in it's support.

2. US defeated communism by outspending the Soviets during the coldwar and by facing down the Soviets in Europe and elsewhere. Study up.

I have. Communism just doesn't work. Sure the spending to try to match the USA contributed a great deal to speeding their downfall. Besides the whole communist opposition is largely as a result of it's misuse. Socialism is a great ideal generally but the reality is that it just means the most corrupt will work themselves into positions of power. People are naturally greedy. Capitalism is a little more honest.

3. The UN and Europe have done more to appease terrorism than anything. They (Europe) at one time appeased Hitler too and we see where that got them.

Appease terrorism? Such as seizing bank accounts, raiding apartments, arresting and trying suspects. Hardly appeasing. Try reading some of the European news. A large part of the Europeans (as a people, not the politicians) are very anti-war due to their suffering in WWII. They didn't want war and occupation inflicted on a people. Europe and Asia were devastated in the war, but Americans didn't suffer the same so lack the feeling.

Are you really as ignorant as your posts portray? If so, I hope you are just one bad example of the Kiwis and not the norm.

And why is it that anyone who disagrees is ignorant, stupid, a liberal or a commie.
Surely the immediate descent into swearing at people shows a lesser degree of intellectual capacity and ability for rational thinking. I guess I am saying I hope your attitude is just one bad example of Americans and not the norm....

 

[KarlMarx]

Originally posted by scubamike



And why is it that anyone who disagrees is ignorant, stupid, a liberal or a commie.
Surely the immediate descent into swearing at people shows a lesser degree of intellectual capacity and ability for rational thinking. I guess I am saying I hope your attitude is just one bad example of Americans and not the norm.... [/B]

What do you expect when you bad mouth our country? When you blame us for every aspect of of World War II?

This is why so many Americans are fed up with the rest of the world and its attitude towards us.

Frankly, I can see where freeandfun1 is coming from.

So when someone blasts you and your country, you get offended. Perhaps a taste of your own medicine will do you some good, but perhaps not, you just don't get it do you?

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by KarlMarx
What do you expect when you bad mouth our country? When you blame us for every aspect of of World War II?

This is why so many Americans are fed up with the rest of the world and its attitude towards us.

Frankly, I can see where freeandfun1 is coming from.

So when someone blasts you and your country, you get offended. Perhaps a taste of your own medicine will do you some good, but perhaps not, you just don't get it do you?

Actually I state positives AND negatives. But noone seems to notice the positives and want to argue the negatives which, thus, get more type.
Never at any point did I blame the US for "every aspect of of(sic) World War II".
The link to Men in Hats arguement is meant as a joke, not an instruction.

Maybe if America's policy makers paid a little more attention then they would find they would make it easier for the American people to live in the world.
And it is quite disturbing that a country whose constitution talks of all men being created equal consider themselves more equal than everyone else. We are all human-beings. Maybe something to bear in find when dealing with the poor and unfortunate around the world. America has great power and with great power comes great responsibility not to misuse that power.

And when people blast me or my country I try to educate them or if that proves pointless, ignore them. So, if you disagree with my views either educate me as to your reasons or ignore me. Easy.

 

[KarlMarx]

Originally posted by scubamike
Actually I state positives AND negatives. But noone seems to notice the positives and want to argue the negatives which, thus, get more type.
Never at any point did I blame the US for "every aspect of of(sic) World War II".
The link to Men in Hats arguement is meant as a joke, not an instruction.

Maybe if America's policy makers paid a little more attention then they would find they would make it easier for the American people to live in the world.
And it is quite disturbing that a country whose constitution talks of all men being created equal consider themselves more equal than everyone else. We are all human-beings. Maybe something to bear in find when dealing with the poor and unfortunate around the world. America has great power and with great power comes great responsibility not to misuse that power.

And when people blast me or my country I try to educate them or if that proves pointless, ignore them. So, if you disagree with my views either educate me as to your reasons or ignore me. Easy.

First of all our constitution does NOT talk about all men being created equal, our Declaration of Independence does. I don't expect you to know that since you aren't from this country.

As for your accusation that Americans think that they are better than the rest of the world. You are falling into the trap of projected the faults of the few onto the many. Few Americans consider themselves better than the rest of the world, they are a distinct minority. I've run into foreigners from other lands with the same attitude about their land.

If you don't agree with American foreign policy, that's your right, but that doesn't make it "misuse of power". If you want to criticize a powerful nation that misuses its power, I can think of a nation to the north of you that does it quite well i.e. China. Their humanitarian rights violations make the abuses at Abu Gharaib prison seem like a Sunday school picnic.

Let me educate you on one point. It is not the duty of American leadership to make the rest of the world like us (an impossible feat). The duty of American leadership is to look after our national interests. Because if they don't, no other country will. The leadership of other countries look after their countries interests, too.

The hatred stirred up towards America is not solely because of our actions, but because our power is a threat to other powerful countries around the world. For instance, China sees us as a threat because we are standing in the way of their getting control of the Eastern Pacific Rim. As a result, these countries use their influence to stir up anti-Americanism. The anti-war protests preceeding the Iraqi invasion were partly funded by the World Worker's party which receives monies from Cuba, North Korea and China. In the 1980s, many anti-nuclear organizations that organized anti-nuclear protest rallies and stirred up anti-American feelings were funded by the Soviet KGB. In fact, the myth that AIDS was actually a CIA bio-weapon experiment was hatched by Soviet intelligence.

Some countries in Europe opposed us going into Iraq, because they had a huge financial interest in the Saddam regime. France in particular had a close relationship with Saddam's regime. (So why doesn't France have a duty to look after the poor and unfortunate of the world. And why doesn't the world hate the French and France?) The United Nations is just plain old corrupt as is evidenced by the Iraqi oil for food program. Instead of feeding Iraqis, the money was diverted in the pockets of other companies from France, Germany, Russia and others, not to mention Saddam Hussein. All this was done under UN management. Where is the outrage at the UN? Doesn't the UN have a duty to look after the poor and unfortunate too?

The problem from this American's viewpoint is that many in the world have two standards. The strict one for America and the lax one for dictators and corrupt NGOs (non government organizations). In these people's opinion, America can do no right and the rest of the world can do no wrong.

 

[scubamike]

Originally posted by KarlMarx

As for your accusation that Americans think that they are better than the rest of the world. You are falling into the trap of projected the faults of the few onto the many. Few Americans consider themselves better than the rest of the world, they are a distinct minority. I've run into foreigners from other lands with the same attitude about their land.

I didn't say all, most or even many. General statements require a little thought on the part of the reader.

If you don't agree with American foreign policy, that's your right, but that doesn't make it "misuse of power". If you want to criticize a powerful nation that misuses its power, I can think of a nation to the north of you that does it quite well i.e. China. Their humanitarian rights violations make the abuses at Abu Gharaib prison seem like a Sunday school picnic.

Actually China gets bigger protests when their head of state visits us than the US does. But then China is not a country governed "by the people, for the people". Democratic governement does work wonders for prevent abuses to the people. However, it doesn't always protect others from itself.

Some countries in Europe opposed us going into Iraq, because they had a huge financial interest in the Saddam regime. France in particular had a close relationship with Saddam's regime. (So why doesn't France have a duty to look after the poor and unfortunate of the world. And why doesn't the world hate the French and France?)

As i have already pointed out. Everyone hates the French. And NZ has more reason than most due to a French state-sponsored terrorist attack on our soil.

The problem from this American's viewpoint is that many in the world have two standards. The strict one for America and the lax one for dictators and corrupt NGOs (non government organizations). In these people's opinion, America can do no right and the rest of the world can do no wrong.

That is because the standards are relative. A country with great power that epouses democracy, freedom and human rights and then threatens all three ideals is very different to one which never supported such ideals in the first place.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by scubamike
I didn't say all, most or even many. General statements require a little thought on the part of the reader.

So why mention it? You're wrong. You're backpedalling. And you try to cloak it in condescension. Consider yourself called out onto the rug.

Actually China gets bigger protests when their head of state visits us than the US does. But then China is not a country governed "by the people, for the people". Democratic governement does work wonders for prevent abuses to the people. However, it doesn't always protect others from itself.

Only tyrants need fear democracy.

As i have already pointed out. Everyone hates the French. And NZ has more reason than most due to a French state-sponsored terrorist attack on our soil.





That is because the standards are relative. A country with great power that epouses democracy, freedom and human rights and then threatens all three ideals is very different to one which never supported such ideals in the first place.

We don't threaten these ideals. We're putting down a dictator and fighting global terrorism. Can't you see the difference?

 

[OCA]

Originally posted by FrIeDRice
u Americans are idiots for making so many people hate you in the first place i meen teroist are insane manicas that fight for a cause they see as totaly right and are vertually impossble to sway the other way. and if you read chinese art of war you should know that morel is the key to winning and these dudes have the highest morel around, after all their willing to kill them selfs

personaly i see america goin down in the future.. they just wasted a whole lot of cash for bearly any profit in the war on iraq and they got a whole bunch of insane people after them that have access to explosives

NOW IF U THINK THIS IS GOOD WAR TACTICS THEN URE A $#@% IDIOT

Don't say shit about people talking about your spelling you fucking ignoramus. If you can't spell or construct a paragraph then you have no business arguing. Go shovel some more kangaroo shit as that is about the only job your intellect level will get you.

Jesus! Where do these fucking illiterates come from?

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by OCA

Jesus! Where do these fucking illiterates come from?

I don't know, but it always makes me laugh because they have the same basic political viewpoint.

 

[McCarthy]

(Im from Sweden - so my English ain't the best.)

First of: America did a great thing during the Second World War. BUT - that does not justefy what you are doing today and what has been done before.
Just becous USA did great things during the WWII does not give you the right to act the way you are doing today! I does not and by all that is good and pure in the world it will never, never do.

- Hello John! My grandfather saved your grandfather 60 years ago so if I feel like killing those Iraqi's over there - you should not do a damn thing about it. We have the rights you see.

Right now Iraqi civilians, American soldiers and those of other nations are dieying (bad English - I know). And why? First of all the main reason behind the attack was all based on lies.
As a human I am so ashamed over what president Bush, Cheney Rumsfeld and all the othrer villians are doing.
And to call the whole operation "Iraqi Freedom" just so that it will seem like a good thing and make the complains and protest against the war lesser in number. First of all it didn't work. People in Europe, America, Africa, Arabia, Asia nor Australia are stupid. They do not fall for it. Well, some of them don't. Some actually do...

What you are doing in Iraq is a horrible crime. Thousand and yet thousands beutiful and unice humans are dead. Dead - thank to Bush, his father, Cheney and the lies.
Far more dead Iraqi's dead then those Americans who did 9/11. You see people? Americans are terrorists aswell. On a far more greater scale.
The war is about the Buch-familys revange on Saddam. About oil and about Americans fear for weapons and treat that i not even there. From the start it was the Iraqi's who should have feared you attacking them! And stop calling the Iraqi soldiers and rebells for terrorist. If someone attack your America based on lies woulde you not fight back? If your family and friends, of your civilians very murdered, hemuliated and tortured whoulde you not fight back? Of cource you woulde.

The United Nations has so many great plans to get rid of Saddam but Bush did not listen to the great man Kofi Annan. And look were we are today.

Everytime I read the paper or turn on the TV I see dead Iraqi's. Dead women, children, civilans. Dead americans soldiers.

And whats up with helping Isreal killing and invading Palestina? Just becouse jews controll americans banks and have such great power in your country should not make you stand on Isreal's side. Fighting yet another weak country and killing even more poor civilians. Do you even care for them? Please say you do.

And Aphganistan? If somebody broke your two legs (World Trade Center) you woulde ofcourse want revange on the criminal that broke your legs. But when you can't find him you kill the people on his street instead? (Aphgani People - Im not sure of the English term). No, but that is what the american goverment did.

George W. Bush is a thief, liar, murderer and and the greatest treath against the free world. He invades countres based on lies and made up facts. He kills and destroies. He brakes laws and treathes that America has signed.

George W. Bush - by the standard and laws of the free world - is a terrorist. And if you support Bush - you are a supporter of terrorism and true evil.

(I will edit this some more. I know some words aint quite right.)