The 2nd amendment does not say "Except for felons" or "Except as provided by law". Why not?

As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives, with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights prepared by scribe William Lambert:[29]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State:[30]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's conditional, but didn't have to be.

As passed by the Congress and preserved in the National Archives, with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights prepared by scribe William Lambert:[29]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, then-Secretary of State:[30]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's conditional, but didn't have to be.

The right to keep and bear arms has nothing to do with the militia!! In DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER (Decided June 26, 2008) The SCOTUS ruled that the right to keep and bear arms was a personal right unrelated to being in a militia:

Held:

1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.

(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.

(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

(c) The Court’s interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms-bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed the Second Amendment. Pp. 28–30.

(d) The Second Amendment’s drafting history, while of dubious interpretive worth, reveals three state Second Amendment proposals that unequivocally referred to an individual right to bear arms. Pp. 30–32.

(e) Interpretation of the Second Amendment by scholars, courts and legislators, from immediately after its ratification through the late 19th century also supports the Court’s conclusion. Pp. 32–47.

(f) None of the Court’s precedents forecloses the Court’s interpretation. Neither United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553, nor Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 264–265, refutes the individual-rights interpretation. United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174, does not limit the right to keep and bear arms to militia purposes, but rather limits the type of weapon to which the right applies to those used by the militia, i.e., those in common use for lawful purposes. Pp. 47–54.

2. Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp.54–56.

District of Columbia v. Heller 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

Conclusion: The right to keep and bear arms is a personal right completely unrelated to membership in a militia. However the right is not absolute and may be subject to reasonable restrictions. What constitutes a reasonable restriction is a matter for the courts to decide. Anyone who is unaware of the SCOTUS decision needs to find different news sources. People who listen to FOX News and read the Drudge Report know better.

You don't agree with the Supreme Court of the United States? Tough Shit.
 
Yet, restrictions on ownership have been upheld repeatedly. Scalia even said assault rifles can be banned. Curious that.
I've noticed that when people can't make an argument about what the Amendment says, they change the subject and try to talk about what the Courts say instead. Even when the Court statement flatly contradicts what the Amendment says.

When the Courts say one thing and the Constitution says another, which one should prevail?

I want to talk about why there are no stated exceptions to the 1st Amendment rights, and yet we have clearly allowed exceptions,

but that seems to have rendered you mute.

I think you lose this argument.
 
The men who wrote the 2nd amendment never applied it as you insist they meant the 2nd amendment to be applied. You are offering us an extreme, absolutist interpretation that the founders never followed. The purpose of an armed public was so they could be ready to serve in the militia. Not so they could reload over the corpses of their victims so they could fire on the local constabulary.
And yet the Framers carefully refrained from putting ANY exceptions into the 2nd... exceptions they were just as careful to include in other amendments.

Why?

(Hint: I've already answered this point in the OP :biggrin:)

The 1st Amendment protects freedom of speech WITHOUT an exception for yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

The 1st Amendment protects freedom of the press WITHOUT an exception for the publication of child pornography.

The 1st Amendment protects freedom of religion WITHOUT an exception for the religious practice of polygamy.

So, Mr. Know it all,

tell us why those 3 actions do not get 1st Amendment protection even though there are no exceptions related to them in the 1st Amendment.
thou shalt not yell fire in a crowded theater....
We simply wrote a law. We didn't take away your right to speak, we just made it against the law to yell something that was likely to cause harm to other people.
We already have laws against shooting people. Most other uses for guns harm no one.
 
The men who wrote the 2nd amendment never applied it as you insist they meant the 2nd amendment to be applied. You are offering us an extreme, absolutist interpretation that the founders never followed. The purpose of an armed public was so they could be ready to serve in the militia. Not so they could reload over the corpses of their victims so they could fire on the local constabulary.
And yet the Framers carefully refrained from putting ANY exceptions into the 2nd... exceptions they were just as careful to include in other amendments.

Why?

(Hint: I've already answered this point in the OP :biggrin:)

The 1st Amendment protects freedom of speech WITHOUT an exception for yelling fire in a crowded theatre.

The 1st Amendment protects freedom of the press WITHOUT an exception for the publication of child pornography.

The 1st Amendment protects freedom of religion WITHOUT an exception for the religious practice of polygamy.

So, Mr. Know it all,

tell us why those 3 actions do not get 1st Amendment protection even though there are no exceptions related to them in the 1st Amendment.
thou shalt not yell fire in a crowded theater....
We simply wrote a law. We didn't take away your right to speak, we just made it against the law to yell something that was likely to cause harm to other people.
We already have laws against shooting people. Most other uses for guns harm no one.
No, we took away the power of a felon or mentally ill person to own a firearm. the 2nd is no more absolute than any other right. This is demonstrated over and over, yet you gun nuts simply go Trumping along your merry way.
 
And yet the police actually can take away the murderer's smoking gun without violating the Second Amendment.
I've already explained why they cannot.

You repeating a falsehood doesn't make it come true.
Say what? You mean to say you are so retarded you actually believe it is unconstitutional for cops to take away a murderer's gun at the scene of a crime?

HOLY SHIT!!!
 
It does say....A well regulated militia being necessary for a free state
A "condition" debunked many times on this forum. Apparently little rightwinger thinks enough time has gone by that he can try to fool people into thinking it's true again.

How do you view our gun policy and second amendment? | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


I know, I know

If the founders had wanted to make gun rights absolute they could have written it as such

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed PERIOD
They did not
Actually, they ere very clear that it is a right retained by the people.

People such as yourself don't give a damn though - you continue to demand that the militia is a requirement to bear arms when it is clear that the plain language of the second does not insinuate that in the slightest. The courts have directly addressed this and found the idea lacking.
 
It does say....A well regulated militia being necessary for a free state
A "condition" debunked many times on this forum. Apparently little rightwinger thinks enough time has gone by that he can try to fool people into thinking it's true again.

How do you view our gun policy and second amendment? | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


I know, I know

If the founders had wanted to make gun rights absolute they could have written it as such

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed PERIOD
They did not
Actually, they ere very clear that it is a right retained by the people.

People such as yourself don't give a damn though - you continue to demand that the militia is a requirement to bear arms when it is clear that the plain language of the second does not insinuate that in the slightest. The courts have directly addressed this and found the idea lacking.
Whoa, the militia clause is not part of this debate. Rather, assuming there is a personal right (which I believe there is) that right may be limited to preclude certain classes of individuals from owning ANY firearms and precluding ALL of us from owning certain classes of firearms (or cannon, tank or nuclear device).
 
Yet, restrictions on ownership have been upheld repeatedly. Scalia even said assault rifles can be banned. Curious that.
I've noticed that when people can't make an argument about what the Amendment says, they change the subject and try to talk about what the Courts say instead. Even when the Court statement flatly contradicts what the Amendment says.

When the Courts say one thing and the Constitution says another, which one should prevail?
Again, because there were PRE-constitutional regulations of firearms, and Courts have merely EXTENDED the reasoning for that to the constitutional times.
 
It does say....A well regulated militia being necessary for a free state
A "condition" debunked many times on this forum. Apparently little rightwinger thinks enough time has gone by that he can try to fool people into thinking it's true again.

How do you view our gun policy and second amendment? | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


I know, I know

If the founders had wanted to make gun rights absolute they could have written it as such

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed PERIOD
They did not
Actually, they ere very clear that it is a right retained by the people.

People such as yourself don't give a damn though - you continue to demand that the militia is a requirement to bear arms when it is clear that the plain language of the second does not insinuate that in the slightest. The courts have directly addressed this and found the idea lacking.
Whoa, the militia clause is not part of this debate. Rather, assuming there is a personal right (which I believe there is) that right may be limited to preclude certain classes of individuals from owning ANY firearms and precluding ALL of us from owning certain classes of firearms (or cannon, tank or nuclear device).
Read the conversation that I replied to - RW specifically brought up the militia.
 
It does say....A well regulated militia being necessary for a free state
A "condition" debunked many times on this forum. Apparently little rightwinger thinks enough time has gone by that he can try to fool people into thinking it's true again.

How do you view our gun policy and second amendment? | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


I know, I know

If the founders had wanted to make gun rights absolute they could have written it as such

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed PERIOD
They did not
Actually, they ere very clear that it is a right retained by the people.

People such as yourself don't give a damn though - you continue to demand that the militia is a requirement to bear arms when it is clear that the plain language of the second does not insinuate that in the slightest. The courts have directly addressed this and found the idea lacking.
Whoa, the militia clause is not part of this debate. Rather, assuming there is a personal right (which I believe there is) that right may be limited to preclude certain classes of individuals from owning ANY firearms and precluding ALL of us from owning certain classes of firearms (or cannon, tank or nuclear device).
Read the conversation that I replied to - RW specifically brought up the militia.
Ok. Sorry. RW should not inject militia.

This may be of interest.


A variety of laws regulating firearms were already in place during


the Founding Era. Militia regulations were the most common form of

laws pertaining to firearms. 7 Such laws could be quite intrusive,

allowing government not only to keep track of who had firearms, but

requiring them to report for a muster or face stiff penalties."'

Regulations governing the storage of gun powder were also

common."9 States prohibited the use of firearms on certain occasions

and in certain locations. 2° A variety of race-based exclusions

disarmed slaves, and in some cases, free blacks. 2' Loyalty oaths also

disarmed portions of the population during the Founding Era.12
http://ir.lawnet.fordham.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4021&context=flr
 
All these poor little Democrats are confused because the SCOTUS simply reiterated in Heller v. District of Columbia what was known to all who have understood the Constitution for the last 234 years.
 
It does say....A well regulated militia being necessary for a free state
A "condition" debunked many times on this forum. Apparently little rightwinger thinks enough time has gone by that he can try to fool people into thinking it's true again.

How do you view our gun policy and second amendment? | Page 4 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


I know, I know

If the founders had wanted to make gun rights absolute they could have written it as such

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed PERIOD
They did not
Actually, they ere very clear that it is a right retained by the people.

People such as yourself don't give a damn though - you continue to demand that the militia is a requirement to bear arms when it is clear that the plain language of the second does not insinuate that in the slightest. The courts have directly addressed this and found the idea lacking.
The courts?

You mean you only referr to a legal decision when it supports your opinion. What about the absolute wording of the document?

I understand what a well regulated militia is
 
All our rights are conditional. If there is a compelling reason to deny them, for example they infringe on someone else's rights, they become forfeit.
 
If the phrase is not a condition, how would our rights be affected without it being there?

If the answer to that question is "not at all", then why is that phrase there?

*crickets*

Since our Founders were lawyers, they would not have included an unnecessary phrase, right?
 
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

versus

"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."


Why did the Founders put all those words and commas in there unless they had some effect?
 

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