Socialism Is Inevitable

Discussion in 'Economy' started by Dragon, Nov 5, 2011.

  1. Dragon
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    Dragon Senior Member

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    A simple thought, set out in numbered points.

    1) An industrial economy requires broadly dispersed wealth in order to generate the consumer demand necessary for prosperity. Without that, inventory cannot be sold, and the economy breaks down.

    2) The main method used in a capitalist economy to distribute wealth is wages paid for work. Although some wealth is dispersed by other methods, wages for work is the way that the vast majority of wealth distribution takes place.

    3) As long as production requires full employment, and as long as wages are kept high through such means as labor unions and worker protection laws, distribution of wealth in a capitalist economy works reasonably well.

    4) However, over time a capitalist economy shows a trend of replacing labor with automation. We have seen this happen in both the agricultural and manufacturing sectors. As agriculture was mechanized, displaced farm workers moved into the factories. As manufacturing has been mechanized (and outsourced), displaced factory workers have moved into the service industries.

    5) With advanced computer and artificial-information technologies, it becomes increasingly possible to automate service industries, too. Already many sales clerks, grocery clerks, legal assistants, typists, bank tellers, and customer-service telephone agents have been replaced by computerized, automated services.

    6) If all three sectors of the economy, farming, manufacturing, and services, become highly automated, we will see a permanent reduction in the number of paid jobs. Those three sectors are all of the economy there is. While there will certainly be some jobs that cannot be automated or aren't worth automating, the number of remaining jobs will be drastically reduced.

    7) See point number 3. A capitalist economy's way of distributing wealth, wages for work, depends on full employment. If we no longer have full employment due to automation, a capitalist economy will break down in a permanent depression.

    8) The only way to restore prosperity under those circumstances when labor has become far less necessary to create wealth, and so no longer serves to distribute wealth, is to render today's privately-owned publicly-traded corporations into publicly-owned operations, and distribute the profits to the people as an owner's share.

    Thus: socialism is inevitable.
     
  2. Baruch Menachem
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    Baruch Menachem '

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    STupid is not inevitable.


    Marx and the rest of the loons have been predicting the inevitability of stupid for generations. It is freedom which is advancing over time, not socialism.

    Point one is idiotic. 'Demand' is not the driver for progress. Economic needs are. As long as there are problems to be solved, there will demand for new solutions. Economic progress is not made by creating every larger piles of crap. Economic progress is created by ever better solutions to human needs.

    point 2 is inane. Wealth is not distributed in a capitalist society. Wages, rent and profits are paid out depending on the needs of the economy.

    3 is a non sequitor. It depends on the nonsensical point two.

    4 Automation has been going on since the days the first proto human shaped the first piece of obsidian into an axe. Automation replaces muscle with brains. The result of automation is always to move labor into more socially useful areas. And incidentally to make more useful things. Nowadays people have more clothing than they know what to do with. 150 years ago people had two sets. Sunday and the rest of the week.

    5 and the labor is sent to more productive areas. Eliminating jobs that are boring, repetitive and in a modern era pointless.

    6) does not follow. And for the length of human history has been disproved. Automation makes more jobs available, not less.

    7) does not follow. You have goofy premisses, you have insane conclusions.

    8) idioti conclusion. Your solution to a non problem is to have machines work and the rest of us buy useless stuff to keep the machines busy.

    Socialism was not meant to be the concept that the productive parts of society, in your view machines, supporting the unproductive. Socialism was ment to be the productive parts of society got paid a reasonable return on their labor.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0"]Jeez louise...[/ame]
     
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  3. Samson
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    Samson Póg Mo Thóin Supporting Member

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    The "socialism is inevitable" crowd is the same group that spends their life getting a PhD in sociology, and then finds their degree useless except for one purpose: Teaching that "Socialism is Inevitable."

    :lol:
     
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  4. Dragon
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    Dragon Senior Member

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    False dichotomy. Freedom is antithetical to autocracy, aristocracy, dictatorship, oligarchy, monarchy, slavery, and other words antithetical to freedom in some sense. Socialism and freedom are not antonyms and the advance of one is not the retreat of the other.

    As long as there are problems to be solved and money in people's hands to pay for the solutions, there will be demand for those solutions. Demand is not merely the desire to buy. It is the desire plus the ability to buy. Without money, no one represents demand, no matter how great his desires may be.

    Of course it is. Your statement here is as nonsensical as "in a capitalist economy, no one breathes."

    When you receive a paycheck, wealth is distributed: it goes from the company to you. That's all I'm saying here. And that is necessary in order to keep the economy running.

    That's only true as long as there remain "socially more useful areas" for labor to move to. As I said, automating the farms moved workers into the factories; automating the factories has moved labor into services. Automate services, and labor will move -- where? Answer that question in any coherent fashion and I will rethink my hypothesis here.

    Impossible, as we have been able to automate services only quite recently.

    7 most certainly DOES follow from the premises; if we have no more jobs, the economy will break down. You may contest the premises, and you have done so although thus far not very successfully, but that doesn't mean the conclusion doesn't follow from them.

    Well, if there are no jobs, then it's either that or we all starve.

    In a non-automated economy, everyone has two economic functions: to produce and to consume. But if all the production can be done with no workers, or with only a fraction of the work force we have now, then the production function is no longer needed. But the consumption function will always be needed. So the two will have to be disconnected.

    True. All previous conceptions of socialism have depended on full employment, just as capitalism does. So it could be that I've mislabeled what I'm talking about, but I can't think of another term for it.
     
  5. Avorysuds
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    Avorysuds Gold Member

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    To deny free markets, capitalism and personal responsibility/freedoms of a people as the best solution to a society trying to be prosperous, creative and an ability to produce the most efficient advanced products is like trying to deny evolution…

    In fact free markets and capitalism is nothing more than the theory of evolution placed upon our society/economy.

    Socialism is like killing all the wolves and outlawing the killing of deer, or ridding the world of bee’s because they can sting you. There will be an obvious correction no matter how hard you try and fight it. We are currently going through a global correction and no amount of bailouts/stimulus or laws will stop it. The correction might not happen today, or this year… but the correction is coming. The welfare state that plagues all levels of our society, from rich who get bailouts and subsidies to poor who get never ending hand outs will soon become extinct.


    In the end it is more about how many have to die because some believe Government was the answer.
     
  6. Dragon
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    Dragon Senior Member

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    Did you read the OP at all? It looks to me as if you're reacting to the term "socialism" without in any way bothering to understand what I'm saying here.

    Go back, read the OP, understand the argument, and try again.
     
  7. alan1
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    alan1 USMB Mod Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Socialism makes fools and thinkers equal.
     
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  8. CrusaderFrank
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    CrusaderFrank Diamond Member

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    Look at all the good Socialism has done for North Korea, Cuba, East Germany and Detroit!
     
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  9. Avorysuds
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    Avorysuds Gold Member

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    Yes, you gave an idiotic prediction of what you think the world will look like… Everything is automated, no one builds anything machines build, program, repair design themselves.

    It was like reading what I’d expect a child to dream up.

    You’re argument assumes that all tools destroy jobs… Try plowing a field with your fucking hands, sure you will need hundreds of people to get the job done but fact is you can’t afford it so the jobs never existed.

    It’s amazing how you can’t see the possibilities and independence that tools provide. It’s also amazing that you think these tools make themselves.
     
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  10. Toro
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    Toro Diamond Member

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    Simply not true. If it were true, it would mean that efficiency and productivity are enemies of growth. If that were true, then the weaving loom and the steam engine would have put the entire population out of work centuries ago.

    All economic growth is a function of technological innovation. Technological innovation which improves efficiency eliminates labour but frees up resources which can be reinvested elsewhere in the economy, employing people.

    A quarter of all jobs that exist today didn't exist as a job classification in 1970. The economy evolves over time. It always has in the past and will so in the future. In fact, it must evolve. Otherwise we will stop growing.
     
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