So Ohio gets union rights back; What next? Layoffs or tax hikes?

[mudwhistle]

I have no idea what Ohio will do, but I think you are missing something in your assumptions. In the medium term, you can't pay people less and get the same quality. Paying teachers and police the same (I say the same and not more since this bill just keeps the pre-Kasich status quo) will lead to better teaching and policing than if you cut their pay. Better schools and lower crime are important factors in attracting new residents and businesses. In an extreme example, the population in Detroit has fallen precipitously even as the cost of living has dropped sharply.

And I don't think it's fair to the voters to suggest that they don't understand your argument. I'm sure that as Kasich and his allies campaigned publicly for their law they made it perfectly clear that unionization didn't lead to free money. That a strong majority of the voters of Ohio chose a different path than the one you favor indicates a difference in values more than a difference in knowledge level.

True.

Their values are easily explained.

Most people are all for screwing others but not so hot on screwing themselves.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Let's get this straight for the record: You're predicting Ohio will NOT have to layoff any public sector workers nor raise taxes to pay for their current level of services. Got it.
Lastly, please provide a link or other proof to suggest that FDR was for public union collective bargaining. Waiting...

You made the assertion without solid attribute. So give it again since it is your claim, and we will go there.

And don't even think of misattributing what I said about public unions. That is a form of deceit.

Nice dodge coward. Either FDR was for public sector collective bargaining or he wasn't. You can play all the bullshit games you want, but it is clear he did NOT support them. From a letter written by FDR on the Resolution of Federation of Federal Employees Against Strikes in Federal Service, August 16, 1937:

"All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations."

Regarding what Ohioans face, I stand behind my assertion that lay offs, service reductions and/or tax increases are inevitable for citizens of that state following the vote restoring public sector collective bargaining. Either you stand behind your statement I got this wrong or you don't.

Strap on a pair and make your case or step out of the way.

You take FDR's quote out of context: he was taking about strikes specifically. He was not doubting the necessity of collective bargaining at all, merely the respective positions of strength regarding government and worker.

Yes, it as an assertion that you make: layoffs and service reductions and revenue increases are inevitable. I disagree, and time will show us what will happen.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have no idea what Ohio will do, but I think you are missing something in your assumptions. In the medium term, you can't pay people less and get the same quality. Paying teachers and police the same (I say the same and not more since this bill just keeps the pre-Kasich status quo) will lead to better teaching and policing than if you cut their pay. Better schools and lower crime are important factors in attracting new residents and businesses. In an extreme example, the population in Detroit has fallen precipitously even as the cost of living has dropped sharply.

And I don't think it's fair to the voters to suggest that they don't understand your argument. I'm sure that as Kasich and his allies campaigned publicly for their law they made it perfectly clear that unionization didn't lead to free money. That a strong majority of the voters of Ohio chose a different path than the one you favor indicates a difference in values more than a difference in knowledge level.

True.

Their values are easily explained.

Most people are all for screwing others but not so hot on screwing themselves.

This I agree with. Most humans are much more willing to screw the other person than him or herself.

An aside: you have quite a bit of solid evidence on FDR and public employee collective bargaining. So I am going to back up on that and do further research. I don't think his position, if it turns out as you argue, should be extended to state he believed the same applied to private business and collective bargaining for workers.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Public unions represent government employees.
Government employees are, eventually, employed by elected officials.
Unions routinely back/oppose the election of these government officials.
Thus, an obvious conflict of interest.

Why are government employees allowed to form a union?
Why are these unions allowed to engage in politics?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why are businesses allowed to employ former government employees, by your logic, as lobbyists and send them back to government?

Interest, conflict of interest, and constituent need create the lubricants of the governmental system.

Conflict is inevitable. Management of it is certainly feasible without disenfranchising players.

 

[paulitician]

Obviously both. Too many Ohioans bought into the Left/Democrat PR spin on Public Unions. They ran an effective campaign so i will give them credit for that. They got the sympathy vote for sure. But this was a big mistake for Ohio. The only ones who will benefit will be the greedy Public Unions. The rest of Ohio's Citizens will now have to suffer though. Vote with your brain,not just with your heart. Ohioans are about to learn that tough lesson.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Pauli, you are dead wrong as time will show. I believe the public sector will be far more careful in Ohio, and so will Wisconsin's when the hard right laws there fall next year.

 

[eflatminor]

You take FDR's quote out of context: he was taking about strikes specifically. He was not doubting the necessity of collective bargaining at all, merely the respective positions of strength regarding government and worker.

Thank you for proving the point I made to Dragon. You sir are delusional.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You take FDR's quote out of context: he was taking about strikes specifically. He was not doubting the necessity of collective bargaining at all, merely the respective positions of strength regarding government and worker.

Thank you for proving the point I made to Dragon. You sir are delusional.

Keep reading, son, and you will feel better soon.

 

[paulitician]

Pauli, you are dead wrong as time will show. I believe the public sector will be far more careful in Ohio, and so will Wisconsin's when the hard right laws there fall next year.

I respect your optimism but i have to disagree. Greed is a huge weakness in human nature. The Government Unions are greedy. They will continue to rape the Taxpayers. I don't see how anything will change. Like i said,only the greedy Public Unions will benefit from this. The rest of Ohio's Citizens will have to pay the price now.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Pauli, you are dead wrong as time will show. I believe the public sector will be far more careful in Ohio, and so will Wisconsin's when the hard right laws there fall next year.

I respect your optimism but i have to disagree. Greed is a huge weakness in human nature. The Government Unions are greedy. They will continue to rape the Taxpayers. I don't see how anything will change. Like i said,only the greedy Public Unions will benefit from this. The rest of Ohio's Citizens will have to pay the price now.

We see the same thing with the public sector unions here in Massachussetts....we are having billions in shortfalls in our budget to do our romneycare and the public sector unions still are looking for guaranteed raises every year.

 

[paulitician]

Pauli, you are dead wrong as time will show. I believe the public sector will be far more careful in Ohio, and so will Wisconsin's when the hard right laws there fall next year.

I respect your optimism but i have to disagree. Greed is a huge weakness in human nature. The Government Unions are greedy. They will continue to rape the Taxpayers. I don't see how anything will change. Like i said,only the greedy Public Unions will benefit from this. The rest of Ohio's Citizens will have to pay the price now.

We see the same thing with the public sector unions here in Massachussetts....we are having billions in shortfalls in our budget to do our romneycare and the public sector unions still are looking for guaranteed raises every year.

Yea it never ends. A vicious circle for sure. Government Unions should have never been allowed. The Taxpayer always loses in the end.

 

[bripat9643]

I have no idea what Ohio will do, but I think you are missing something in your assumptions. In the medium term, you can't pay people less and get the same quality. Paying teachers and police the same (I say the same and not more since this bill just keeps the pre-Kasich status quo) will lead to better teaching and policing than if you cut their pay. Better schools and lower crime are important factors in attracting new residents and businesses. In an extreme example, the population in Detroit has fallen precipitously even as the cost of living has dropped sharply.

That's all liberal abracadabra. The private sectors pays people who are better more. Paying people more doesn't make them better. No school teacher is going to quite because his pay is cut because he can't get a better paying job elsewhere. When people are overpaid, cutting their pay doesn't hurt a damn thing.

And I don't think it's fair to the voters to suggest that they don't understand your argument. I'm sure that as Kasich and his allies campaigned publicly for their law they made it perfectly clear that unionization didn't lead to free money. That a strong majority of the voters of Ohio chose a different path than the one you favor indicates a difference in values more than a difference in knowledge level.

The voters of Ohio are stupid. They just proved it. They are easily swayed by leftwing propaganda.

 

[bripat9643]

Yes lets get it so that everyone is down to $5 per hour. We already have a corporate plutocracy in this country. Might as well totally eliminate the middle class.

The "middle class" does not consist entirely of tics sucking off the taxpayers.

 

[bripat9643]

Big Business is not the answer.

It's not the answer to what?

 

[bripat9643]

This is why I'm not worried about "Atlas shrugging". "Atlas" wouldn't dare because he knows there are others who are willing to jump in and make some $$$ under new rules if they aren't.

Wrong, dork. Countries like Mexico exist because all the Atlas type men refuse to waste their lives for the sake of parasites like you.

 

[bripat9643]

Ever been to Cleveland? That's what democrats will do to the entire state of Ohio and then they will blame banks and Wall Street and everything but socialism.

THe Republicans just make it so the lake can burn.

Nixon created the EPA, dork.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Pauli, you are dead wrong as time will show. I believe the public sector will be far more careful in Ohio, and so will Wisconsin's when the hard right laws there fall next year.

I respect your optimism but i have to disagree. Greed is a huge weakness in human nature. The Government Unions are greedy. They will continue to rape the Taxpayers. I don't see how anything will change. Like i said,only the greedy Public Unions will benefit from this. The rest of Ohio's Citizens will have to pay the price now.

We see the same thing with the public sector unions here in Massachussetts....we are having billions in shortfalls in our budget to do our romneycare and the public sector unions still are looking for guaranteed raises every year.

Then you the citizens need to pull them up short without ending collective bargaining, and while you do that, you better do a better job of making sure corporate America is paying its far share in Massachusetts.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I have no idea what Ohio will do, but I think you are missing something in your assumptions. In the medium term, you can't pay people less and get the same quality. Paying teachers and police the same (I say the same and not more since this bill just keeps the pre-Kasich status quo) will lead to better teaching and policing than if you cut their pay. Better schools and lower crime are important factors in attracting new residents and businesses. In an extreme example, the population in Detroit has fallen precipitously even as the cost of living has dropped sharply.

That's all liberal abracadabra. The private sectors pays people who are better more. Paying people more doesn't make them better. No school teacher is going to quite because his pay is cut because he can't get a better paying job elsewhere. When people are overpaid, cutting their pay doesn't hurt a damn thing.

And I don't think it's fair to the voters to suggest that they don't understand your argument. I'm sure that as Kasich and his allies campaigned publicly for their law they made it perfectly clear that unionization didn't lead to free money. That a strong majority of the voters of Ohio chose a different path than the one you favor indicates a difference in values more than a difference in knowledge level.

The voters of Ohio are stupid. They just proved it. They are easily swayed by leftwing propaganda.

It only means the informed citizens don't put up with Hard Right and libertarian bullshit.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I respect your optimism but i have to disagree. Greed is a huge weakness in human nature. The Government Unions are greedy. They will continue to rape the Taxpayers. I don't see how anything will change. Like i said,only the greedy Public Unions will benefit from this. The rest of Ohio's Citizens will have to pay the price now.

We see the same thing with the public sector unions here in Massachussetts....we are having billions in shortfalls in our budget to do our romneycare and the public sector unions still are looking for guaranteed raises every year.

Then you the citizens need to pull them up short without ending collective bargaining, and while you do that, you better do a better job of making sure corporate America is paying its far share in Massachusetts.

They don't call us Taxachussetts for nothing

And this state is the wrong state to try denying a public sector union a raise regardless of our economic situation.

There are some companies that get special treatment, such as Cape Wind, who should have to pay the corporate taxes like anyone else but the legislature wont try to stop it and if they did the Gov would just veto it.