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Is it possible that you have no idea what you're talking about? Snowden didn't "flee" to Russia, as he was stranded there while in transit by the U.S. government who revoked his passport. Question: If I get stuck in Nashville on my way to Texas, was I going to Tennessee?
The question is insufficient. If you robbed a bank and were on your way to a safehouse in Texas, but got stuck in Nashville due to Police road blocks, then it is not an inaccurate description to say you fled to Nashville.
You speak of the man as if he went on vacation. Let us stick to the facts. He was not on vacation.
Was the item I took from the bank evidence that the bank was committing crimes against the bank's other customers? That's the only way your analogy would be relevant.
Why? Do the Germans or Brazilians, or millions of other innocent civilians, the NSA is now known to have been spying on somehow have less rights to privacy than American citizens? Would it be alright for the Chinese government to spy on Americans because we're not Chinese citizens?
Yes.
Do you actually think the Chinese Government, or any foreign government, will stop spying on Americans because you think it's not okay? Tell that to the Russian hackers who just the other day tried to download a "setup.exe" onto people's computers right here on this forum through a redirection attack.
Here is a link:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/announcements-and-feedback/358212-i-keep-getting-redirected.html
That just happened. Your policies would leave US citizens both blind and defenseless.
Not spying on every single person in the Bahamas doesn't leave the U.S. "blind and defenseless." If the Chinese government were going to jump off a bridge would you want the U.S. government to follow suit?
Regardless of any name or element of character you wish to hang on Edward Snowden the fact remains he has done us all, including you, a very big favor and he is paying the price of virtual exile for it. Our current President, in addition to pimping for the finance industry, not only chose to ignore the many glaringly egregious and extraordinarily damaging crimes of the Bush Administration, he has in his lubriciously subtle style managed to solidify the effects of those crimes and expand upon them. He has become what is best described as a polished and more personally palatable extension of George W. Bush.Is it possible that Snowden is a moron?
Do you think every drop-out who lands a cushy job in the defense industry is a genius?
Is it possible that Snowden has delusions of grandeur?
Is that possible, and is that what led him to believe fleeing to Russia was a good idea?
There is an assumption that Snowden is some tech wizard. What if he is just a donut eating IT jockey with too much time on his hands and a bad plan?
A racist? For exposing an intimidatingly arrogant abuse of government power? What the NSA has done may be viewed as a step in the direction of Orwell's vision of Nineteen Eighty Four. We do not want government to have this kind of power -- especially if government decides to acquire it without our permission.Edward Snowden is a racist who engages in acts of digital, verbal, and political terrorism to weaken the standing of President Obama and his administration.
He belongs in prison for his hate crimes.
The question is insufficient. If you robbed a bank and were on your way to a safehouse in Texas, but got stuck in Nashville due to Police road blocks, then it is not an inaccurate description to say you fled to Nashville.
You speak of the man as if he went on vacation. Let us stick to the facts. He was not on vacation.
Was the item I took from the bank evidence that the bank was committing crimes against the bank's other customers? That's the only way your analogy would be relevant.
No. You stole the details to that bank's security and all the encryption techniques the bank was using to prevent criminals from committing crimes against its customers. And now the hackers know how to hack the customer's accounts and bank robbers are studying the stolen floorplans. Basically, you helped a bunch of thugs and "Nigerian princes", and now you want to say you didn't flee as you sit in a mansion provided by such a "prince".
Yes.
Do you actually think the Chinese Government, or any foreign government, will stop spying on Americans because you think it's not okay? Tell that to the Russian hackers who just the other day tried to download a "setup.exe" onto people's computers right here on this forum through a redirection attack.
Here is a link:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/announcements-and-feedback/358212-i-keep-getting-redirected.html
That just happened. Your policies would leave US citizens both blind and defenseless.
Not spying on every single person in the Bahamas doesn't leave the U.S. "blind and defenseless." If the Chinese government were going to jump off a bridge would you want the U.S. government to follow suit?
logical fallacy.
You assume following suit is always a bad thing regardless of the circumstances.
Following suit is not always a bad thing. Simply because one is following suit does not mean one is wrong. Whether or not following suit is a bad thing depends on by what means and to what end one is following.
If the Chinese built a safer car, would you want America to follow suit?
If the Chinese cured cancer, would you want America to follow suit?
If the Chinese employed thousands of hackers with the express purpose of hacking into American Banks, would you want America to be able to respond in self-defense?
If the governments of Germany and Russia started having private conversations, would you want America blind? Last time that happened, Poland disappeared.
Was the item I took from the bank evidence that the bank was committing crimes against the bank's other customers? That's the only way your analogy would be relevant.
No. You stole the details to that bank's security and all the encryption techniques the bank was using to prevent criminals from committing crimes against its customers. And now the hackers know how to hack the customer's accounts and bank robbers are studying the stolen floorplans. Basically, you helped a bunch of thugs and "Nigerian princes", and now you want to say you didn't flee as you sit in a mansion provided by such a "prince".
So every single person in the Bahamas, and everywhere else, is a criminal?
How do you think international spying is done? Do you think Angela Merkel is not a German citizen? Do you remember the Russian spy ring busted a while back that was using social media sites to work their way up the social chain to contacts that mattered?Not spying on every single person in the Bahamas doesn't leave the U.S. "blind and defenseless." If the Chinese government were going to jump off a bridge would you want the U.S. government to follow suit?
logical fallacy.
You assume following suit is always a bad thing regardless of the circumstances.
Following suit is not always a bad thing. Simply because one is following suit does not mean one is wrong. Whether or not following suit is a bad thing depends on by what means and to what end one is following.
If the Chinese built a safer car, would you want America to follow suit?
If the Chinese cured cancer, would you want America to follow suit?
If the Chinese employed thousands of hackers with the express purpose of hacking into American Banks, would you want America to be able to respond in self-defense?
If the governments of Germany and Russia started having private conversations, would you want America blind? Last time that happened, Poland disappeared.
I believe the phrase two wrongs don't make a right is the applicable one here. Just because the Chinese government may try to spy on American citizens doesn't mean the U.S. government should spy on everybody in the world. Furthermore, you're talking about spying on governments but my objection is to the spying on innocent civilians including American citizens. Frankly I couldn't care less whether the U.S. spies on Russia and China or vice versa.
No. You stole the details to that bank's security and all the encryption techniques the bank was using to prevent criminals from committing crimes against its customers. And now the hackers know how to hack the customer's accounts and bank robbers are studying the stolen floorplans. Basically, you helped a bunch of thugs and "Nigerian princes", and now you want to say you didn't flee as you sit in a mansion provided by such a "prince".
So every single person in the Bahamas, and everywhere else, is a criminal?
That the bank's encryption algorithm prevents rich sunbathers in the Bahamas, visiting their offshore accounts, from accessing anyone else's account willy-nilly does not make the person in the Bahamas a criminal. The offshore account might; but, that's not germane to the thread.
Hyperbole mixed with Hypothetical is known to create an unstable reaction, and this is the clean discussion section. Maybe we can talk about something more real.
Perhaps you have some stronger charge against FISA other than you don't think it's nice?
The National Security Agency is secretly intercepting, recording, and archiving the audio of virtually every cell phone conversation on the island nation of the Bahamas.
According to documents provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the surveillance is part of a top-secret system code-named SOMALGET that was implemented without the knowledge or consent of the Bahamian government. Instead, the agency appears to have used access legally obtained in cooperation with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration to open a backdoor to the countrys cellular telephone network, enabling it to covertly record and store the full-take audio of every mobile call made to, from and within the Bahamas and to replay those calls for up to a month.
SOMALGET is part of a broader NSA program called MYSTIC, which The Intercept has learned is being used to secretly monitor the telecommunications systems of the Bahamas and several other countries, including Mexico, the Philippines, and Kenya. But while MYSTIC scrapes mobile networks for so-called metadata information that reveals the time, source, and destination of calls SOMALGET is a cutting-edge tool that enables the NSA to vacuum up and store the actual content of every conversation in an entire country.
How do you think international spying is done? Do you think Angela Merkel is not a German citizen? Do you remember the Russian spy ring busted a while back that was using social media sites to work their way up the social chain to contacts that mattered?logical fallacy.
You assume following suit is always a bad thing regardless of the circumstances.
Following suit is not always a bad thing. Simply because one is following suit does not mean one is wrong. Whether or not following suit is a bad thing depends on by what means and to what end one is following.
If the Chinese built a safer car, would you want America to follow suit?
If the Chinese cured cancer, would you want America to follow suit?
If the Chinese employed thousands of hackers with the express purpose of hacking into American Banks, would you want America to be able to respond in self-defense?
If the governments of Germany and Russia started having private conversations, would you want America blind? Last time that happened, Poland disappeared.
I believe the phrase two wrongs don't make a right is the applicable one here. Just because the Chinese government may try to spy on American citizens doesn't mean the U.S. government should spy on everybody in the world. Furthermore, you're talking about spying on governments but my objection is to the spying on innocent civilians including American citizens. Frankly I couldn't care less whether the U.S. spies on Russia and China or vice versa.
Domestic spying and international spying are two different things. So long as nations exist these two concepts shall always be separate and unequal. If you would like to dispense with nation-states that's all well and good for you; but not everyone else agrees with you.
If you're going to tackle FISA, you'll have a heck of a heavy burden. If you're going to tackle domestic spying, you might win except for the fact that Snowden has hurt our foreign intelligence capabilities which brings his defense back to square one and a heavy burden.
So every single person in the Bahamas, and everywhere else, is a criminal?
That the bank's encryption algorithm prevents rich sunbathers in the Bahamas, visiting their offshore accounts, from accessing anyone else's account willy-nilly does not make the person in the Bahamas a criminal. The offshore account might; but, that's not germane to the thread.
Hyperbole mixed with Hypothetical is known to create an unstable reaction, and this is the clean discussion section. Maybe we can talk about something more real.
Perhaps you have some stronger charge against FISA other than you don't think it's nice?
The National Security Agency is secretly intercepting, recording, and archiving the audio of virtually every cell phone conversation on the island nation of the Bahamas.
According to documents provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the surveillance is part of a top-secret system code-named SOMALGET that was implemented without the knowledge or consent of the Bahamian government. Instead, the agency appears to have used access legally obtained in cooperation with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration to open a backdoor to the countrys cellular telephone network, enabling it to covertly record and store the full-take audio of every mobile call made to, from and within the Bahamas and to replay those calls for up to a month.
SOMALGET is part of a broader NSA program called MYSTIC, which The Intercept has learned is being used to secretly monitor the telecommunications systems of the Bahamas and several other countries, including Mexico, the Philippines, and Kenya. But while MYSTIC scrapes mobile networks for so-called metadata information that reveals the time, source, and destination of calls SOMALGET is a cutting-edge tool that enables the NSA to vacuum up and store the actual content of every conversation in an entire country.
Data Pirates of the Caribbean: The NSA Is Recording Every Cell Phone Call in the Bahamas
No hyperbole. This is fact.
Foreign. Intelligence. Surveillance. Act.How do you think international spying is done? Do you think Angela Merkel is not a German citizen? Do you remember the Russian spy ring busted a while back that was using social media sites to work their way up the social chain to contacts that mattered?I believe the phrase two wrongs don't make a right is the applicable one here. Just because the Chinese government may try to spy on American citizens doesn't mean the U.S. government should spy on everybody in the world. Furthermore, you're talking about spying on governments but my objection is to the spying on innocent civilians including American citizens. Frankly I couldn't care less whether the U.S. spies on Russia and China or vice versa.
Domestic spying and international spying are two different things. So long as nations exist these two concepts shall always be separate and unequal. If you would like to dispense with nation-states that's all well and good for you; but not everyone else agrees with you.
If you're going to tackle FISA, you'll have a heck of a heavy burden. If you're going to tackle domestic spying, you might win except for the fact that Snowden has hurt our foreign intelligence capabilities which brings his defense back to square one and a heavy burden.
Merkel is a German citizen, but she's not an innocent civilian. If politicians from different countries want to spy on each other and treat each other like garbage that's their business, but the real issue is when they abuse the power given to them to illegally spy on innocent civilians whether in their own country or in others. That's what Snowden revealed. That for all their talk of fighting terrorism all they're really doing is creating a surveillance apparatus to spy on everybody, whether they have any ties to terrorism or criminal activities or not.
That the bank's encryption algorithm prevents rich sunbathers in the Bahamas, visiting their offshore accounts, from accessing anyone else's account willy-nilly does not make the person in the Bahamas a criminal. The offshore account might; but, that's not germane to the thread.
Hyperbole mixed with Hypothetical is known to create an unstable reaction, and this is the clean discussion section. Maybe we can talk about something more real.
Perhaps you have some stronger charge against FISA other than you don't think it's nice?
The National Security Agency is secretly intercepting, recording, and archiving the audio of virtually every cell phone conversation on the island nation of the Bahamas.
According to documents provided by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden, the surveillance is part of a top-secret system code-named SOMALGET that was implemented without the knowledge or consent of the Bahamian government. Instead, the agency appears to have used access legally obtained in cooperation with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration to open a backdoor to the countrys cellular telephone network, enabling it to covertly record and store the full-take audio of every mobile call made to, from and within the Bahamas and to replay those calls for up to a month.
SOMALGET is part of a broader NSA program called MYSTIC, which The Intercept has learned is being used to secretly monitor the telecommunications systems of the Bahamas and several other countries, including Mexico, the Philippines, and Kenya. But while MYSTIC scrapes mobile networks for so-called metadata information that reveals the time, source, and destination of calls SOMALGET is a cutting-edge tool that enables the NSA to vacuum up and store the actual content of every conversation in an entire country.
Data Pirates of the Caribbean: The NSA Is Recording Every Cell Phone Call in the Bahamas
No hyperbole. This is fact.
So what?
Foreign. Intelligence. Surveillance. Act.How do you think international spying is done? Do you think Angela Merkel is not a German citizen? Do you remember the Russian spy ring busted a while back that was using social media sites to work their way up the social chain to contacts that mattered?
Domestic spying and international spying are two different things. So long as nations exist these two concepts shall always be separate and unequal. If you would like to dispense with nation-states that's all well and good for you; but not everyone else agrees with you.
If you're going to tackle FISA, you'll have a heck of a heavy burden. If you're going to tackle domestic spying, you might win except for the fact that Snowden has hurt our foreign intelligence capabilities which brings his defense back to square one and a heavy burden.
Merkel is a German citizen, but she's not an innocent civilian. If politicians from different countries want to spy on each other and treat each other like garbage that's their business, but the real issue is when they abuse the power given to them to illegally spy on innocent civilians whether in their own country or in others. That's what Snowden revealed. That for all their talk of fighting terrorism all they're really doing is creating a surveillance apparatus to spy on everybody, whether they have any ties to terrorism or criminal activities or not.
So what? What's your point? You don't think international spying is nice?
It is rather hard to spy on 7 billion people individually minus 300 some odd million Americans and the citizens of the other Five Eyes, so yes this is entering hyperbole.
Snowden: Traitor or Patriot
FISA is perfectly constitutional, going back long before any panic over 9/11.Foreign. Intelligence. Surveillance. Act.Merkel is a German citizen, but she's not an innocent civilian. If politicians from different countries want to spy on each other and treat each other like garbage that's their business, but the real issue is when they abuse the power given to them to illegally spy on innocent civilians whether in their own country or in others. That's what Snowden revealed. That for all their talk of fighting terrorism all they're really doing is creating a surveillance apparatus to spy on everybody, whether they have any ties to terrorism or criminal activities or not.
So what? What's your point? You don't think international spying is nice?
It is rather hard to spy on 7 billion people individually minus 300 some odd million Americans and the citizens of the other Five Eyes, so yes this is entering hyperbole.
United. States. Constitution.
No, I don't think it's nice to spy on innocent civilians around the world, nor do I think it's nice to spy on American citizens here. People have a right to privacy, yes, even non-Americans, and the U.S. government, along with their allies in the Five Eyes, are illegally infringing on that right.
If you don't think it's important then there's nothing I can say to change your mind about that, but let's not pretend it's a legitimate, or intelligent, use of surveillance powers.
Foreign. Intelligence. Surveillance. Act.Merkel is a German citizen, but she's not an innocent civilian. If politicians from different countries want to spy on each other and treat each other like garbage that's their business, but the real issue is when they abuse the power given to them to illegally spy on innocent civilians whether in their own country or in others. That's what Snowden revealed. That for all their talk of fighting terrorism all they're really doing is creating a surveillance apparatus to spy on everybody, whether they have any ties to terrorism or criminal activities or not.
So what? What's your point? You don't think international spying is nice?
It is rather hard to spy on 7 billion people individually minus 300 some odd million Americans and the citizens of the other Five Eyes, so yes this is entering hyperbole.
United. States. Constitution.
No, I don't think it's nice to spy on innocent civilians around the world, nor do I think it's nice to spy on American citizens here. People have a right to privacy, yes, even non-Americans, and the U.S. government, along with their allies in the Five Eyes, are illegally infringing on that right.
If you don't think it's important then there's nothing I can say to change your mind about that, but let's not pretend it's a legitimate, or intelligent, use of surveillance powers.
FISA is perfectly constitutional, going back long before any panic over 9/11.Foreign. Intelligence. Surveillance. Act.
So what? What's your point? You don't think international spying is nice?
It is rather hard to spy on 7 billion people individually minus 300 some odd million Americans and the citizens of the other Five Eyes, so yes this is entering hyperbole.
United. States. Constitution.
No, I don't think it's nice to spy on innocent civilians around the world, nor do I think it's nice to spy on American citizens here. People have a right to privacy, yes, even non-Americans, and the U.S. government, along with their allies in the Five Eyes, are illegally infringing on that right.
If you don't think it's important then there's nothing I can say to change your mind about that, but let's not pretend it's a legitimate, or intelligent, use of surveillance powers.
United States v. U.S. District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972) (dicta)
United States v. Brown, 484 F. 2d 418 (5th Cir. 1973)
United States v. Butenko, 494 F.2d 593 (3rd Cir. 1974)
Zweibon v. Mitchell, 516 F.2d 594 (D.C. Cir. 1975)
United States v. Duggan,743 F.2d 59 (2nd Cir., 1984)
United States v. Nicholson, 955 F.Supp. 588 (Va. 1997)
You are mistaken.
FISA is exactly a legitimate and intelligent use of surveillance powers.
You are mistaken in my thoughts as to its importance. You see, it is I who has concluded that you think FISA is unimportant and that's why you champion a traitor. I, on the other hand, think FISA is of the utmost importance. When I say "So what?" to your remonstration, it is simply because you have provided no compelling argument that has not been addressed in legal precedent long before any Patriot Act mumbo-jumbo.
The Committee is concerned that, until recently, judicial interpretations of FISA and rulings of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) had largely been kept secret, thus not allowing affected persons to know the law with sufficient precision. The Committee is concerned that the current oversight system of the activities of the NSA fails to effectively protect the rights of the persons affected. While welcoming the recent Presidential Policy Directive/PPD-28, which now extends some safeguards to non-United States citizens to the maximum extent feasible consistent with the national security, the Committee remains concerned that such persons enjoy only limited protection against excessive surveillance. Finally, the Committee is concerned that the persons affected have no access to effective remedies in case of abuse (arts. 2, 5 (1) and 17).
