Should Israel have been created?

[Lipush]

Then why are we ruining it?

 

[Hossfly]

Let's ask Bibi:

"During an interview with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in March 2011, Piers Morgan posed a serious question:

MORGAN: Do you have nuclear weapons?

NETANYAHU: Well, we have a longstanding policy that we won’t be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East, and that hasn’t changed.

MORGAN: So you don’t have any?

NETANYAHU: That’s our policy. Not to be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East.

"Despite the word games, it is well known that Israel has been a nuclear weapons power for forty-five years. As several Israeli historians and journalists have revealed, Israel crossed the nuclear threshold on the eve of the Six Day War in May 1967.

"Summarized by Patrick Tyler in his book, A World of Trouble: The White House and the Middle East—from the Cold War to the War on Terror:

“[Prime Minister Levi] Eshkol, according to a number of Israeli sources, secretly ordered the Dimona [nuclear reactor] scientists to assemble two crude nuclear devices. He placed them under the command of Brigadier General Yitzhak Yaakov, the chief of research and development in Israel’s Defense Ministry.

"'One official said the operation was referred to as Spider because the nuclear devices were inelegant contraptions with appendages sticking out. The crude atomic bombs were readied for deployment on trucks that could race to the Egyptian border for detonation in the event Arab forces overwhelmed Israeli defenses.”

http://blogs.cfr.org/zenko/2012/03/05/israels-nuclear-weapons-program-and-lessons-for-iran/

How 'bout Bibi's speech tonight, GP? I knew you would like it.

My stomach isn't that strong, Hoss.
All governments lie, but those with the biggest guns lie best.

But your stomach seems strong enough, Georgie Boy, to post a lot of nonsense. Does it really take big guns for a country or those from that country to lie a lot? Do you really think that if you actually had the money to visit some Muslim country, the leaders would really tell you that those who are non Muslims or Muslims of different sects are shown such tolerance when it comes to matters of religion? Go find some Muslims in your own city (there are plenty of them) and see them lie about the millions and millions of people Muslims have murdered since the inception of Islam. Years ago they didn't even need guns to do that -- their trusty swords did them quite well. Georgie Boy reminds me of those Muslims you see yelling Death to the U.S.

 

[Billo_Really]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWI the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

Looking back on what they have done since statehood:

• their wanton aggression against its neighbors
• their inhuman treatment of the Palestinian's
• their interference in US politics
• their tyrannical Prime Ministers

They don't deserve a country!

 

[Lipush]

Luckily, haters like you are not calling the shots, nor are important in everyway.

Israel exists because this is how it should be

 

[P F Tinmore]

Uuhhh, guys?

Any special reason why we're bumbing a thread from 2004?

Good question. But did you notice how much more civil the discussion was back then than the ones we have with the juveniles we have on the board now?

 

[editec]

As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWI the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?

Your question failed to identify from whose perspective would we be answering that question.

For Jews the creation of Israel was a boon.

For the inhabitants of that place in 1917 it was mostly a disaster.

I suspect America would have been better off if it hadn't been created, but probably not for the reasons that many think.

Had there been no Israel to flee to more Jews would live in the USA.

And that would have been a good thing for this nation, I suspect.

Jews contributions to the societies where they live are usually enormous if they're given half a chance to contribute freely to that society.

Show me any city in America where one cannot find a decent bagel and I'll show you a place where in all likihood, there is damned little culture, too.

The cost of sharing a nation with Jews is far surpassed by the benefits of having them in it.

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

The question is a trap in itself.

• It is not a question of ancient land associations.
• It is not a question of previous established rights.
• It is not a question of decree by a deity or religious dogma.

It is a fundamental question about the Powers-that-be at the time; the Principle Allied Powers and the League of Nations (LoN). By asking the question on the creation of Palestine, the legitimacy of all the regional nations comes into question.

Israel's creation created Pandora's box in the already backwards Middle East. In addition, if Israel gets a state, why not the Kurds? the Tibetans? countless other oppressed and margainalized minorities?

I take all the Bible/Koran/Torah stuff with a huge grain of salt so I'm not into "that's their chosen land" or any of the stuff like that, so I guess that's why my view is quite different from that of others.

For me, no, the state of Israel did not deserve to be created. As it is now though, I do believe in and support the state of Israel. I just wish the settler elements would shut up and move out.

I fully understand your position, but then what about Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, etc.? Did they have a right to be formed? Were we right to sit by as they either exterminated or deported the jews that lived in those lands? Without the formation of Israel, I would say the formation of those predominately Islamic states was wrong too.

(COMMENT)

The "Special Committee on the Future Government of Palestine (SCFGP)," the LoN entity that reviewed the data, conditions, overall situation, and researched the issues, --- made the recommendation that were to form the basis for Partition of the Palestine Mandate outlined in GA Resolution 181(II). In the French Mandate, Syria was already discussed and outlined in the Treaty of Sevres (1920), and so Lebanon was formed by default (Land area of the Mandate minus Syria equals Lebanon). In the case of the British Mandate, the LoN and Allied Powers had to address 4 main issues:

• The promise of a Heshemite Kingdom.
• The Special City of Jerusalem.
• One additional Arab Nation (to be named later).
• The Issue of a Jewish National Home; how to implement and establish.

The simple question of "Should Israel have been created?" is really deceptively complex. Recalling today, the situation as the LoN and Allied Powers saw back then.

• The Land/Territories and people, cover by the Treaty, were part of the Ottoman Empire.
• The Ottoman Empire was an opposition power to the Principle Allied Powers. (The people we call Palestinians today, were - back then, the indigenous population of a post-War enemy state.)
• The Principle Allied Powers were the victors of the conflict settled by combat.
• The Heshemite Bedouins were allied with the Principle Allied Powers.
• The customary approach to post-War settlements and agreements of the time (19th Century Rules); as being modified by the new thoughts of the early 20th Century.

Part of the trap to this question, is to forget the time frame, the general situation, and the customary way post-War arrangements were made during that period. Instead, we try to apply early 21st Century logic, emotions, and sympathies to the question which --- will lead to a different result entirely (of course, if the LoN/Allied Powers knew then, what we know now, they might have done things differently - hind sight is 20/20 for the Monday Morning Quarterback).

The question, really should consider, if YOU (the product of an 18th Century western education) ---> the victors of a very hard fought early 20th Century War, having just defeated the Ottoman Empire in over half of North Africa, and the entire Middle East, would have done it differently in the post-War era that followed?

Sometimes, over simplification of an issue drops out variables that have a huge impact on the answer.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[georgephillip]

The Allied Powers defeated the Ottoman Empire and then set in motion events that lead to the imposition of a settler-colonial state in Israel circa 1948. Hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians were fled lands they had lived on for generations. Since all governments serve the interests of their richest citizens (natural and corporate); perhaps elites in the west who have gotten even richer off the misery of Jew and Arab alike in Palestine since 1948 should pay the cost of reparations to their Semitic victims?

 

[irosie91]

Hundreds of thousands of jews fled lands in which they
had lived long before the rapist pig, muhummad, of
arabia------was born. WHO MADE MONEY off this
demographic shift? I am fascinated. Hundreds of
thousands of BENGALIS----fled east bengal to west
bengal in 1971----did someone make a fortune out of
that too?. In fact hundreds of thousands of Irish--
fled the British Isles to america-----during a famine---did
someone make a fortune on their backs too?

It is true that Cortez got his filthy paws on the gold
of mexico-----but that was justified by SAINT ISABELLA--
in the name of allah, isa and the rapist pig and the
SPANISH INQUISITION

 

[MHunterB]

It would have been much safer for everyone if the refugees had gone to America, where they were welcome. And, no, the 'Moslems' would not be chasing them here.

'Welcome'????? Just where are you getting that little fantasy from???

 

[Roudy]

It would have been much safer for everyone if the refugees had gone to America, where they were welcome. And, no, the 'Moslems' would not be chasing them here.

'Welcome'????? Just where are you getting that little fantasy from???

He forgot the boatload of Jews that was refused by America and sent back to their deaths.

 

[Hossfly]

It would have been much safer for everyone if the refugees had gone to America, where they were welcome. And, no, the 'Moslems' would not be chasing them here.

'Welcome'????? Just where are you getting that little fantasy from???

He forgot the boatload of Jews that was refused by America and sent back to their deaths.

I remember the radio broadcasts at the time and American citizens were devastated by the news. Back in those days, Herr Roosevelt and his government were stifling free speech.

 

[irosie91]

It would not have worked anyway-----Israel already existed as a state by the end of the 19th century ---a fact which islamo nazi pigs always like to ignore
It did not have independence from the Ottoman empire at
that point-----but it had everything needed to MAKE IT A
STATE---including sufficient population ---social and governmental institutions ---etc-. By that time it was
far more a STATE than the mythic "palestine" is today.

It had a very good reason TO EXIST as a jewish state-----
simple---a refuge for jews from the STINK OF THE MANY
ISLAMIC STATES IN THE AREA

try to remember----nature seeks SYMETRY

 

[Billo_Really]

Luckily, haters like you are not calling the shots, nor are important in everyway.

Israel exists because this is how it should be

This isn't about "haters", it's about "humans".

Anyone who cares about humanity, is appauled by the way Israel treats the Palestinian's.

 

[Billo_Really]

anyone who cares for humanity would be APPALLED
by the way arabs treated jews and would APPLAUD
their escape from the SHIT HOLES OF ISLAMIC
OPPRESSION---just as all decent people APPLAUD
the escape of sudanese christians FROM THE
SHIT OF ISLAM -------and, of course---anyone
who cares for humanity would be APPALLED
at the cynical neglect of the muslims for
their bretherern and their MISTREATMENT
OF THEM and their FORCING THEM
INTO PERPETUAL REFUGEE STATUS just
for the sake of and the STINK of
ISLAMIC IMPERIALISM

Yeah, but this thread is about Israel.

 

[georgephillip]

Hundreds of thousands of jews fled lands in which they
had lived long before the rapist pig, muhummad, of
arabia------was born. WHO MADE MONEY off this
demographic shift? I am fascinated. Hundreds of
thousands of BENGALIS----fled east bengal to west
bengal in 1971----did someone make a fortune out of
that too?. In fact hundreds of thousands of Irish--
fled the British Isles to america-----during a famine---did
someone make a fortune on their backs too?

It is true that Cortez got his filthy paws on the gold
of mexico-----but that was justified by SAINT ISABELLA--
in the name of allah, isa and the rapist pig and the
SPANISH INQUISITION

Learn to read:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Billo_Really]

Learn to read:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But they didn't do that now, did they?

 

[georgephillip]

Learn to read:

"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine..."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But they didn't do that now, did they?

It seems to have worked out well for some...

"The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community..."
"His Majesty.."

Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip; et al,

Of course, there are other hypothesis.

The Allied Powers defeated the Ottoman Empire and then set in motion events that lead to the imposition of a settler-colonial state in Israel circa 1948. Hundreds of thousands of indigenous Palestinians were fled lands they had lived on for generations.

(COMMENT)

The outbreak of hostilities was the primary cause. And the outbreak of hostilities was initiated by the Palestinians.

Since all governments serve the interests of their richest citizens (natural and corporate);

(COMMENT)

That is rather a telling statement.

Ah yessss... This is a common anti-government theme.

There is no mention of the land purchases through the Jewish Agency program made lucrative through Egyptian Banks and Real Estate brokers.

perhaps elites in the west who have gotten even richer off the misery of Jew and Arab alike in Palestine since 1948 should pay the cost of reparations to their Semitic victims?

(COMMENT)

Why would you suspect that the elite of the Mandatory would have profited more than the mortgage holders and transfer brokers in Damascus and Cairo?

I suspect, as well, that some reparations and restitutions are probably due. It will take some sort of an effort, given the accounting required to compute the damage caused by the agressors, less the incurred damage claims and associated compensation; and eventually treaty limitations.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

Mr R----regarding the land purchases----WHO WOULD BE
"compensated" ????? compensated for what??????