Should Israel have been created?

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by Isaac Brock, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. Isaac Brock
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    Isaac Brock Active Member

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    As we all know, after the terrible Jewish persecution in WWI the allied nations under the hospices of the UN created the state of Israel in the former British mandate of Palestine. With the benefit of hindsight, was this a good idea?

    While there is little doubt the terrible plight the Jews experienced in WWII and even before that, but is that enough of a reason to cede land to them? Historically the land had been Jewish, but not for many, many years. I don't think the Jewish people have a better or worse claim on the land than the Egyptians, Turks and other Semetic tribes.

    Now of course the question is moot. Isreal exists and it would not be just, nor advantageous to displace them. However, as a thought on alternative historical outcomes, what say you?
     
  2. freeandfun1
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    freeandfun1 VIP Member

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    The choice was either put them there, or allow them to immigrate to the USA. So yes, it was the right thing to do. I would rather them be fighting for their lives over there than here. If they had come here, the Muslims would be chasing them here. There is no doubt about that and terrorist attacks would have started HERE way before 9-11. Plus, historically, it was/is their homeland and that IS NOT debatable.
     
  3. Isaac Brock
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    Isaac Brock Active Member

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    It was certainly their homeland, but it was also other cultures homeland. Under Ottoman rule, Jews and Muslim had a relatively high degree of tolerance compared to Europe. I don't agree that the same animosty between Muslims and Jews would have existed without the presence of the state of Israel.

    Of course the best solution would be that they could all exist peacefully like so many other cultures in the world, but pipe dreams are just that.
     
  4. freeandfun1
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    freeandfun1 VIP Member

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    ahhh, but the Jews were peacefully settled in the area of Israel when they were pushed from their homeland by Mohammed and his gang of thugs under HIS new religion. So THEY started the entire thing.
     
  5. Isaac Brock
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    Isaac Brock Active Member

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    Agreed, but the Franks pushed out the pagan Celts. Should we return France to Ireland or Scotland (haha okay bad example, i know what you'll say on that one? Or return US and Canada to its native people. Or most of Russia back to the Turkmen?

    The reality is that history has a nasty problem with displacing conquered people. So as gregarious, enlightened folk of the 20th and 21st century how do we mitigate history with the rightful homes of various people?

    I'm afraid I don't have a very good answer to that. Ideas?
     
  6. ajwps
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    ajwps Active Member

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    I've got a big surprise for you. The Jewish people did not get Israel by the good graces of the UN or the allied nations.

    Israel established itself as a sovereign nation ALL BY ITSELF.

    The UN simply voted by a majority to approve of Israel's already established sovereign state. The very next day, 5 Arab armies attacked Israel armed with mostly a few Israeli's who had been in Israel for generations and mostly the survivors of the Nazi concentration camps.

    Lo and behold, Israel had nothing but a few guns and one piper plane and yet they beat off the armies attacking them.

    When a country wins against 5 armies attacking them in order to kill all of its citizens, then that country that won the war waged against them finally and irrevocably owns the land by right of WINNING.

    Sorry but all your wishes and desires to the opposite are to no avail and all the civilizations who have tried it for 3 thousand years have failed and will continue to fail.

    Have a good day..
     
  7. freeandfun1
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    freeandfun1 VIP Member

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    I understand what you are saying, but my point is that they have been fighting over the same land for centuries. They (the Jews) have stayed in the area. I think your examples are bad ones as the Jews did not leave the land. There just never was a "state" as they, like native Americans, didn't believe in states. None in that region did. We (the west) formed SA, Jordan, Syria, etc., so why not give the Jews a state? We gave all the Muslims states, so fair is fair in my book.
     
  8. ajwps
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    Who are the 'THEY' that have been fighting over Israel for centuries?

    When the Hebrews came into the land of Israel they fought and eliminated all the Canannites, Hittites, Philistines and all other idol worshiping and children sacrificing people who lived in Cannan.

    Like you say, since that time, surrounding countries have waged wars against Israel, taken large portions of the Jewish people captive and tried to destroy the land.

    The answer lies in the fact that England belongs to the English, France belong the French, America belongs to the Americans and Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

    Anyone who wants to take over England, France, Germany, Israel or America for themselves will have to win the land in a war wagaed against these peoples.

    No other country or land can give away another people's land to those who don't want anything but death of the inhabitants of that country.

    Bush is slowly learning this fact and Sharon will learn it the hard way.
     
  9. Isaac Brock
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    Isaac Brock Active Member

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    I was under the impression that Creation of Israel was apart of the Franco-British Sykes Picot/Balfour agreement? As i understand, after the defeat of the Ottomans in WWII the British suggested Jews immigrate back to their homeland as thanks for their aid in over-running the Ottomans. Under an agreement, the Jews settle 25% of the British Mandated Palestine and gave the other 75%, Trans-Jordan to ther current "Palestinian" occupants.

    I understood that a UN resolution in 1947 allowed the partition of British mandated Palestine which wasn't supported by Arab nations and that Israel declared independence according to the passed UN resolution.

    Sometime I just wonder for the Jewish people whether or not they would have been better off and more secure living in various countries post-WWII. Of course, I am not Jewish and cannot answer that.
     
  10. NATO AIR
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    NATO AIR Senior Member

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    Issac, AJ is like the Jewish William Joyce, he's way out there and quick to condemn you without making much sense. Free&fun is actually coherent, fair and pretty knowledgeable with sources and decent opinions. trying to debate with AJ is near impossible. he'll just label you an anti-semite and run around like his heads cut off about israel, sharon being evil, america hating israel, etc etc.
     

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