Serena slam #2, and you're racist if you say it's because the field is weak.

[SwimExpert]

Serena Williams accomplishes Serena Slam (four consecutive, non calendar year Grand Slam championships) number two. She now prepares for the final big tournament of the year, the US Open in New York, where she will have the chance to complete the first calendar year Grand Slam since Steffi Graf did it, as well as to tie Graf's 22 all time leading total Grand Slam singles titles.

Some say Williams resurgent success in recent years has been due to a weak field of women's tennis players. Graf won her major titles against some of history's best, which was continually true throughout her career. Others say that arguing such a point makes you racist. Williams herself has been at the forefront of social equality issues in the sport for most of her career. She has played an instrumental role in equalizing the prize money between men's and women's titles. She, along with her sister, also engaged in a long standing boycott of Indian Wells, after her family experienced racially based harassment at the tournament early in their professional careers.

I think it is far too PC to claim any criticism, or reflection not concluding that Serena is the best player ever, is racist. Yes, she and Venus both entered onto the scene and had an attitude somewhat akin to spoiled brats. Yes, her hair beads created an unfair advantage. Yes, she was arrogant. Yes, her early years success was largely attributable to a one dimensional style that relied on simple raw power, particularly in the serve. Yes her latter years have benefited from a derth of truly great women's players at the top of the pro tour. Yes, Martina Hingis and Justine Henin were easily superior tennis players whose lives led into other directions.

But saying that does not mean that one rejects her praiseworthiness. Yes, Serena and her sister changed the game. Yes, Serena (much more than her sister) grew and matured into a complete and well rounded tennis player. Yes, Serena has faced some of the all time greats and had success against them. Yes, her longevity and high level of play at this point in her life is very laudable. Yes, she is one of the greats.

The danger of political correctness is that it inserts politics into every fold of life, where it really has no place. It inserts race relations into sports commentary, etc. It makes it so that everything becomes a manifestation of an agenda that is otherwise unrelated. If we cannot engage in sports commentary on Serena Williams' run for sports history without first aligning our commentary to race relations, then we no longer have a society that values open discourse or rational thinking.

 

[TheOldSchool]

Her hair beads created an unfair advantage?

 

[LoneLaugher]

What the fuck is the OP whining about? Did someone call you a racist today?

 

[SwimExpert]

Her hair beads created an unfair advantage?

Back when Serena and Venus used to wear hair beads, there were continual complaints about the fact that the beads caused an inordinate amount of noise during points. Both sisters were actually given a surprising degree of latitude for quite a long time. In a game where it is expected that points be played without any noise, other than those sounds that naturally arise from the act of playing, the hair bead issue eventually became a hot button issue for a brief time, because they were simply permitted to have these beads that created extra noise. If their opponents had, for example, been wearing sneakers that had little speakers in them that loudly played recorded sounds with every step, they would have been penalized. However, the Williams sisters enjoyed quite a stretch where they were allowed to do something their opponents were not allowed to do. Thus, there was an unfair advantage.

 

[SwimExpert]

What the fuck is the OP whining about? Did someone call you a racist today?

If you're not big into tennis, you probably aren't aware of the subject. First, you must understand that tennis is a sport that is 99.99999% white. The Williams Sisters not only are among a very select few black people to ever emerge on the pro tour, but they have been extremely successful. Serena particularly is essentially the Tiger Woods of her sport. The receptiveness of the tennis world to black superstars has been a backdrop issue throughout her (and her sister's) career. With Serena's success over the past year bringing her into a super elite echelon of achievement, there has been much discussion that has somewhat turned to controversy. Several people have questioned whether Serena really is as good of a tennis player as those historic figures whose accomplishments she has recently equaled and/or exceeded. For example, Chris Evert has long been considered the all time greatest American women's singles tennis player. With 34 appearances in Grand Slam finals (most all time), 18 GS singles championships, seven consecutive French Open championships (longest streak all time), six consecutive US Open championships (longest streak all time, tied with Serena Williams), two career Grand Slams, and the highest career winning percentage in the Open Era, she's well deserving of such accolades. As Serena approached, and then surpassed, Evert's total GS singles titles some questioned whether the accomplishment meant Serena was the better player.

The debate has been ongoing, with some saying that the numbers don't like. But others suggest that the numbers aren't directly comparable. It has been noted that these latter years of Serena's career have coincided with a general lack of truly great players in women's pro tennis. In other words, maybe Serena has been collecting GS titles because the competition is lax. The most popular response this suggestion has been the allegation of racism; that if you make such an argument it must be because you are racist and just don't want to give a black woman the credit she deserves.

 

[LoneLaugher]

And......?

 

[JoeMoma]

"Serena slam #2, and you're racist if you say it's because the field is weak."


Serena is beating the best women in the world at this time. To say that her success is due to a weak field is not racist in an of itself. However, it seems pretty stupid to me.

 

[Mad Scientist]

The field IS weak. Weak compared to HER!

Besides, who ELSE can wear Denim and STILL dominate on the court?

 

[amrchaos]

Oh how has America fallen

There was a time we could talk about a man sport--like heavy weight boxing. Now look at us.

We are talking about the advantages of hair beads in women tennis!! Putin is laughing at us with the Klitschko brothers(Ukr)!!
America is no longer manly sport mecca--even greatest athlete Bruce Jenner is now woman!!

 

[SwimExpert]

Serena is beating the best women in the world at this time. To say that her success is due to a weak field is not racist in an of itself. However, it seems pretty stupid to me.

Really? So, who are the competitors, in your opinion, in the current game who compare the the level of competition faced by Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Hingis, Henin, or Davenport?

Steffi Graf and Chris Evert spent their careers playing against some of the best players in all of history. They achieved their greatness, their records, their legacies by beating other players with their own legacies. That kind of player does not appear right now in the pro tour. During the early and mid years of her career Serena was on a stage with a troupe of truly phenomenal players. Hingis, Davenport, Clijsters, and Henin were all exceptional players against whom Serena was constantly competing. Those women are no longer in the game. In the latter years of Serena's career her toughest competition has been Sharapova, Wozniak, Jankovic, Radwanska, and Azarenka. And three of the five have never won a Grand Slam in their lives.

Martina Hingis climbed her way to dominance at the top against none other than the Queen Steffi Graf herself. Serena has reached this dominant point in her career against players who are not close to that level.

 

[SwimExpert]

The field IS weak. Weak compared to HER!

Obviously. But seriously, there's no doubt that Serena is a phenomenal player and ranks among the top 10 players all time. But she's not the greatest player ever. No matter if she wins the US Open (which she probably will) she still won't be on the same level as Graf, or Evert, or Navratilova. And I definitely don't thinks she can ever truly compare to Hingis or Henin.

 

[SwimExpert]

Oh how has America fallen

There was a time we could talk about a man sport--like heavy weight boxing. Now look at us.

We are talking about the advantages of hair beads in women tennis!! Putin is laughing at us with the Klitschko brothers(Ukr)!!
America is no longer manly sport mecca--even greatest athlete Bruce Jenner is now woman!!

This is the politics forum. We're discussing political correctness and race relations, particularly how one injects the other into subjects otherwise not warranting such.

 

[JoeMoma]

Serena is beating the best women in the world at this time. To say that her success is due to a weak field is not racist in an of itself. However, it seems pretty stupid to me.

Really? So, who are the competitors, in your opinion, in the current game who compare the the level of competition faced by Navratilova, Graf, Evert, Hingis, Henin, or Davenport?

Steffi Graf and Chris Evert spent their careers playing against some of the best players in all of history. They achieved their greatness, their records, their legacies by beating other players with their own legacies. That kind of player does not appear right now in the pro tour. During the early and mid years of her career Serena was on a stage with a troupe of truly phenomenal players. Hingis, Davenport, Clijsters, and Henin were all exceptional players against whom Serena was constantly competing. Those women are no longer in the game. In the latter years of Serena's career her toughest competition has been Sharapova, Wozniak, Jankovic, Radwanska, and Azarenka. And three of the five have never won a Grand Slam in their lives.

Martina Hingis climbed her way to dominance at the top against none other than the Queen Steffi Graf herself. Serena has reached this dominant point in her career against players who are not close to that level.

My opinion doesn't matter. If you want to go down the road of comparing players from different time periods that don't play head to head during their prime, well go at it. At the end of the day it will still be an unproven opinion.

 

[SwimExpert]

My opinion doesn't matter. If you want to go down the road of comparing players from different time periods that don't play head to head during their prime, well go at it. At the end of the day it will still be an unproven opinion.

Well, I'm not really comparing players such as you suggest. Not entirely, anyway. Hingis, Davenport, Clijsters, Sharapova, Jankovic, Wozniak, and Henin all were contemporaries with Serena for quite some time, but they're just no longer playing at this point in time. Hingis, Clijsters, and Henin all had tragically (for the fans) truncated careers due primarily to life events. Davenport's and Serena's careers overlapped for the better part of both; Davenport also having been contemporary with most of the rest. Sharapova has overlapped pretty much all of the above.

Graf's career also overlapped those of Hingis, Serena, and Davenport. Graf's early career also overlapped Evert and Navratilova. Serena and Evert never competed against each other, but nonetheless there is enough overlap to draw significant conclusions.

Based on the overlapping of careers, including head-to-head play, it's very easy to say:

Hingis > Graf
Hingis > Serena
Hingis > Davenport
Davenport > Clijsters
Davenport ≥ Serena
Henin > Davenport
Henin ≥ Hingis
Graf > Davenport
Graf > Evert
Navratilova > Evert
Graf > Navratilova
Clijsters > Wozniak
Clijsters > Jankovic
Clijsters > Sharapova

Based on that, we can draw very logical conclusions about the strength of competition each had to face as they achieved their accomplishments.

But hey, we all have opinions. Discussing our opinions is a great pasttime. Such a shame when political correctness is used to silence opinions about sports

 

[JoeMoma]

My opinion doesn't matter. If you want to go down the road of comparing players from different time periods that don't play head to head during their prime, well go at it. At the end of the day it will still be an unproven opinion.

Well, I'm not really comparing players such as you suggest. Not entirely, anyway. Hingis, Davenport, Clijsters, Sharapova, Jankovic, Wozniak, and Henin all were contemporaries with Serena for quite some time, but they're just no longer playing at this point in time. Hingis, Clijsters, and Henin all had tragically (for the fans) truncated careers due primarily to life events. Davenport's and Serena's careers overlapped for the better part of both; Davenport also having been contemporary with most of the rest. Sharapova has overlapped pretty much all of the above.

Graf's career also overlapped those of Hingis, Serena, and Davenport. Graf's early career also overlapped Evert and Navratilova. Serena and Evert never competed against each other, but nonetheless there is enough overlap to draw significant conclusions.

Based on the overlapping of careers, including head-to-head play, it's very easy to say:

Hingis > Graf
Hingis > Serena
Hingis > Davenport
Davenport > Clijsters
Davenport ≥ Serena
Henin > Davenport
Henin ≥ Hingis
Graf > Davenport
Graf > Evert
Navratilova > Evert
Graf > Navratilova
Clijsters > Wozniak
Clijsters > Jankovic
Clijsters > Sharapova

Based on that, we can draw very logical conclusions about the strength of competition each had to face as they achieved their accomplishments.

But hey, we all have opinions. Discussing our opinions is a great pasttime. Such a shame when political correctness is used to silence opinions about sports

Okay, I will conced that you may very well be right. I beleive that your main point is that having the opinion that Serena is doing so well nose is because she is not facing tough completion is not racist. I agree with you on that point and that has not changed.

 

[Bonzi]

Serena Williams accomplishes Serena Slam (four consecutive, non calendar year Grand Slam championships) number two. She now prepares for the final big tournament of the year, the US Open in New York, where she will have the chance to complete the first calendar year Grand Slam since Steffi Graf did it, as well as to tie Graf's 22 all time leading total Grand Slam singles titles.

Some say Williams resurgent success in recent years has been due to a weak field of women's tennis players. Graf won her major titles against some of history's best, which was continually true throughout her career. Others say that arguing such a point makes you racist. Williams herself has been at the forefront of social equality issues in the sport for most of her career. She has played an instrumental role in equalizing the prize money between men's and women's titles. She, along with her sister, also engaged in a long standing boycott of Indian Wells, after her family experienced racially based harassment at the tournament early in their professional careers.

I think it is far too PC to claim any criticism, or reflection not concluding that Serena is the best player ever, is racist. Yes, she and Venus both entered onto the scene and had an attitude somewhat akin to spoiled brats. Yes, her hair beads created an unfair advantage. Yes, she was arrogant. Yes, her early years success was largely attributable to a one dimensional style that relied on simple raw power, particularly in the serve. Yes her latter years have benefited from a derth of truly great women's players at the top of the pro tour. Yes, Martina Hingis and Justine Henin were easily superior tennis players whose lives led into other directions.

But saying that does not mean that one rejects her praiseworthiness. Yes, Serena and her sister changed the game. Yes, Serena (much more than her sister) grew and matured into a complete and well rounded tennis player. Yes, Serena has faced some of the all time greats and had success against them. Yes, her longevity and high level of play at this point in her life is very laudable. Yes, she is one of the greats.

The danger of political correctness is that it inserts politics into every fold of life, where it really has no place. It inserts race relations into sports commentary, etc. It makes it so that everything becomes a manifestation of an agenda that is otherwise unrelated. If we cannot engage in sports commentary on Serena Williams' run for sports history without first aligning our commentary to race relations, then we no longer have a society that values open discourse or rational thinking.

I think she wins because she has muscles like a man.

But I have seen Justine Henin beat her, and she's a pixie!

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

"Serena slam #2, and you're racist if you say it's because the field is weak."

Nonsense.

No one is calling anyone ‘racist.’

 

[DGS49]

The quality of tennis - men's and women's - has risen dramatically in the time since Venus and Serena first came on the scene, but it hasn't been their influence on the women's side.

The serves and groundstrokes are measurably more powerful now than they ever were when Graf, Martina, Evert, and previous generations were playing. Maybe it's the racquets and maybe its the players, but the speed of the balls is measurably faster.

Not to be crude, but not only Serena, but any of the top ten female players today would eat Crissy Evert for lunch. And Martina's net game would be a non factor with the ground strokes that today's girls have. She would be passed 90% of the time.

As for the Williams sisters themselves, their phenomenal success is the product of two things: their athleticism and their father's approach to developing their talent. If they had been brought up playing tennis for their high school and playing in normal tournaments, they would never have achieved what they have. But their father had them practicing against good men players who challenged them in a way that domestic American girls could never do.

And of course, Serena seem to have a work ethic that is second to none. But since she is bigger and stronger than anyone else, this cannot be verified.

Today's field of womens' tennis stars is not weak, Serena is just a freak. Best ever. No question.

 

[SwimExpert]

I think she wins because she has muscles like a man.

But I have seen Justine Henin beat her, and she's a pixie!

Indeed she is. Henin wasn't weak, though. She had powerful shots, but she was a technique master. I miss being able to watch her play the game. Henin is much more of a contender for the greatest of all time than Serena ever will be.

 

[SwimExpert]

The quality of tennis - men's and women's - has risen dramatically in the time since Venus and Serena first came on the scene, but it hasn't been their influence on the women's side.

The serves and groundstrokes are measurably more powerful now than they ever were when Graf, Martina, Evert, and previous generations were playing. Maybe it's the racquets and maybe its the players, but the speed of the balls is measurably faster.

Not to be crude, but not only Serena, but any of the top ten female players today would eat Crissy Evert for lunch. And Martina's net game would be a non factor with the ground strokes that today's girls have. She would be passed 90% of the time.

As for the Williams sisters themselves, their phenomenal success is the product of two things: their athleticism and their father's approach to developing their talent. If they had been brought up playing tennis for their high school and playing in normal tournaments, they would never have achieved what they have. But their father had them practicing against good men players who challenged them in a way that domestic American girls could never do.

And of course, Serena seem to have a work ethic that is second to none. But since she is bigger and stronger than anyone else, this cannot be verified.

Today's field of womens' tennis stars is not weak, Serena is just a freak. Best ever. No question.

I think the Williams sisters do deserve alot of credit for changing the game. Some of the modern developments have to do with technology improving the equipment, and making it possible to break down the mechanics through computer imaging, etc. But Serena and Venus introduced a degree of raw power into the women's game that forced everyone to make adjustments. Early in their careers, Venus was routinely clocking serves in the range of 120-125 mph, which at the time would have been a routine serve in the men's game. Routine serves in the women's game at the time were probably around 100 mph. Now, 120+ mph serves have become the norm in women's tennis. One of the great discussions in the game during the late 90s was the contrast of the power style of the Williams sisters vs the technical finesse style of world no. 1 Hingis, whose serves were sometimes below 70 mph.

Serena became the much better rounded player, between herself and Venus, and learned to play more than raw power. But even still, Hingis and Henin far outshine Serena. Henin's light feet, single hand backhand, and net play were superior to Serena's power play, which is why Henin was the single world dominant player during her career.