Separation of Church and State

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Blakcat51, Jul 28, 2012.

  1. Blakcat51
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    Blakcat51 JR

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    From David Barton's American Heritage Series (2011)
    Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Rush, correspondence

    This is one subject that we as Americans need to come to terms with. I ask that you research a bit yourself before posting a reply. This is who were are as Americans. Also, I would ask whether you'd allow anyone to misquote a statement from your personal communications.

    Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Rush, both signers of the Declaration of Independence wrote to each other concerning the phrasing and implications of the First Amendment. During their correspondence, Jefferson wrote Rush a response which included, "... I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." The letter goes on to calm Rush and others. This phrase was taken out of context and continues to the present.

    This private correspondence clarifies to Rush and other that the intent of the First Amendment was that government will generate no legislation affecting the establishment of a national religion, or prohibit religious pursuit of the individual. Neither attempts to affect the operation of the other, simply put.

    Our elected officials are protecting every other religion, but do nothing to protect basic Christian principles that most will agree is the basis of our separation from England. However, if a major incident occurs (ie, the incident in Colorado), our elected officials are amongst the first to use Christian religion to make themselves look good.
     
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  2. del
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    del BANNED

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    :rolleyes:

    have you met allie?
     
  3. hwyangel
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    hwyangel Member

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    The first part of this provision is known as the Establishment Clause, and the second part is known as the Free Exercise Clause. Although the First Amendment only refers to Congress, the U.S. Supreme Court has held that the Fourteenth Amendment makes the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses also binding on states
    The Supreme Court has interpreted religion to mean a sincere and meaningful belief that occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to the place held by God in the lives of other persons. The religion or religious concept need not include belief in the existence of God or a supreme being to be within the scope of the First Amendment.
     
  4. JakeStarkey
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    JakeStarkey Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    Barton is absolutely incorrect in his interpretation of state and church.

    I advise all to read him to read every footnote carefully then go to the sources from which the notes come.

    You will quickly realize that Barton is out of context.
     
  5. whitehall
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    whitehall Gold Member

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    The original concept of "separation church/state" was obviously intended as a limit on federal power. A former KKK member appointed to the Supreme Court by FDR wrote the majority opinion which gave the federal government the power to limit freedom of religion. Through the years the democrat party has expanded the modern concept of "Separation" to the point that a 50 year old Korean War monument in San Diego was ordered bulldozed by federal judges because a single atheist was offended by a 40 Ft Cross. Today kids can chant to Allah in grammar school but they will be suspended if they dare to carry a Bible.
     
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  6. C_Clayton_Jones
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    C_Clayton_Jones Diamond Member

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    The Supreme Court takes into consideration many documents and sources when deliberating an Establishment Clause issue, including sources from the Foundation Era. Foundation Era sources are not sacrosanct, however, they are not the sole authority as to the intent of the Framers, and are subject to interpretation in the context of those other sources, as the Framers did not speak with one voice.

    Constitutional case law is thus clear and explicit, that the Establishment Clause enjoins any jurisdiction from promoting religion absent a secular intent, it must not have the primary effect of promoting religion, and it must not manifest in an inappropriate entanglement of religion and the state. See: Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971)

    Our elected officials aren’t ‘protecting’ any religion, nor is any religion being denigrated. It’s inane and ridiculous to argue there is some sort of ‘double standard’ in play with regard to the treatment of Christianity and other faiths.
     
  7. hwyangel
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    hwyangel Member

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    Jesus said there would days like this.
     
  8. Dont Taz Me Bro
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    Dont Taz Me Bro USMB Mod Staff Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    No students have been suspended for carrying a Bible.
     
  9. Blakcat51
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    Blakcat51 JR

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    How can Barton be out of context, if his references come from historical documentation? Since it's already been verified where the phrase "separation of church and state" came from (private correspondence), how can this, or why should this have any affect on policies? Why is it that our founding fathers could pray so fervently and openly then, but now prayer has been taken out of school, and regulated to the point of how a prayer should be worded?
     
  10. JakeStarkey
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    JakeStarkey Diamond Member Supporting Member

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    First, look up "context". Barton is out of context, using only texts with which he agrees and ignoring material that disagrees with him. Simply because he uses some historical materials does not mean he is in context. It is your duty to go to every footnote then to every source, and then read even more.

    Second, anybody can pray in public school anytime he or she wishes, but cannot disrupt the educational process or be coercive of his neighbor while doing so.

    Third, no prayer has been regulated as to wordage by government.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012

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