"Rope", Progressivism and the "We Generation"

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by Big Fitz, May 31, 2010.

  1. Big Fitz
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    I am realizing where we have come from to where we are almost at ethically and politically as a nation.

    In the flow of the generations through a society, you can see how things change, but also get a feel for the general cycles that exist in the nature of mankind. Civilizations rise and fall in cycles. Fashions and fads fade and return. But now I see one returning that I have a great dread in my heart about because I know it's no accident it has returned, but a coordinated plot by those who have preserved in their hearts a dark time and darker philosophies.

    Alfred Hitchcock filmed "Rope" in 1948 as a thriller with a technical twist as it was shot to look like one continuous shot. This is a sidebar to the true value of this classic to modern society as a warning of what is to come if we are not careful about what we say and believe, for ears are always listening, and someday, the casually espoused beliefs we may have the moral control to temper properly, may take root in the minds that have no such moral controls and become guiding principle.

    Here's a review, it gives away nothing of the movie for it is very straight forward in many regards with no real twists, but keeps the tension tight all the way through.

    Stewart is their college professor who steeped the two socialites in the beliefs of Nietzsche and other philosophers who espoused egalitarianism, elitism and superior status and thumbed his nose at the dirty bourgeoisie that he felt superior toward because he was in a university. These beliefs, carelessly thrown about create the two monsters at the middle of the plotline. When Stewart has to come face to face with two boys that have become the living embodiment of the ideals he had espoused for decades, it creates in him a massive moral crisis and awareness that when his preferred ideology is put to practice, it is nothing more than the manifesto of nightmares and monsters.

    These philosophies were the ruling thoughts of much of the world beginning in WW1 and progressing to it's final defeat in WW2. The American Eugenics Society, Italian Corporatism, the American Bund, The German Nazi party, Russian Communism, Japanese Militant Nationalism; all these share roots from the same progressive thoughts of elitism and desire to perfect the world in their image or in the name of compassion. It's profits though were over 100 million dead worldwide during and between those two wars and countless attrocities committed all in the name of control... perfection... utopia.

    Unfortunately these philosophies did not die. Not all adherents where excoriated from the public record. Too many believers who slipped through the cracks infiltrated societies throughout the world and looked for a way to correct their mistakes. The dream of utopia and perfection is incredibly seductive. It has the best intentions, but can never mesh with our imperfect world.

    Now we sit in a new century, almost 100 years separated from where those grave evils of Progressivism have come from. We have believed that those evils have been defeated 60 years before and are forever gone. This is why I bring up the movie "Rope". We are not safe. We have forgotten. We have chosen not to look closely at what we have said in the past. Worst of all, we have forgotten there are those who still believe what evil that had been wrought through Progressivism unleashed through some of the darkest years in existence, were not only necessary, but right! These thoughts have wormed their ways back into the hearts of our youth, who were not innoculated from this philosophical disease. Aided by ignorance and willful denial, those who desire the return of Progressivism have gained a hold in our children's minds. Now a century later, those same children, 2 generations separated from the disease are afflicted with it. Why do I say this?

    http://gen-we.com/sites/default/files/We%20Declaration.pdf

    These are the words of the new Progressives. This is the same spirit that when unleashed created the evils of WW1, WW2, Cambodian Killing Fields, The Communist Revolutions in Russia and China, The French Revolution and many many more disasters throughout the world that have cost this world millions of innocent lives. Collectivism over the individual is the distilled essence of the debate.

    Read over the manifesto/declaration they have on this site and see what is seducing our children. Compare these attitudes towards the evil you see in the movie "Rope". Understand that these children have become perverted and twisted by these dangerous ideas and somehow will have to be exposed to the truth of what their ideals create.

    Collective rights, which is the foundation of all this destroy the individual, for the individual is meaningless. You are a replaceable unit and you must do what you are told for the sake of the collective to survive even unto your own destruction. What the cruel trick in this remains is that those who believe in collective rights almost never visualize themselves as PART of the collective. They never conceive of the day they will be required to sacrifice on the part of the whole. Somehow the cruel trick seeps in of elitism that the rules are for others, not themselves, because they "get it" and support it, so they can never be consumed by it.

    How could this take root so deeply in the minds of the youth of this nation? Because no one taught them better. Their parents generation often rebelled against the moralistic behavior of the generation that fought against these great evils and turned their back on the bulwarks that brightly illuminated the evil nature of the philosophy of Progressivism, for they had suffered personally because of it. Their children, protected from those ills were removed from the danger, coddled in love and lost understanding of what danger this presented. They in turn coddled their children who became the "We generation" who know nothing of the moral disparity between their grandparents lives (or even great grandparents) and trials and their own. The monsters of 2-3 generations ago never enter their minds, for their parents do not even think of them either.

    So now we seemed poised to repeat the same mistakes of a century before. Listen to the video here on the front page of Generation We and ask yourself, do they sound like the values and ideals of the founding fathers? Or the Progressives that nearly destroyed this world?

    Generation WE: A Generation 95 Million People Strong

    I personally found this video chilling to the core that our children are so far removed from as well as hostile to values that have served our nation well for 200+ years. Just like the progressives in the past turned on their own national roots and ethics. How much longer can we suffer this deadly philosophy to live on?
     
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  2. rikules
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    rikules fighting thugs and cons

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    1.
    so...
    what are you recommending?

    death to progressives?

    are you saying that only YOU and your fellow conservative tea baggers have a right to decide what directionth enext generation can take?

    are you hitler?

    are you a dictator?

    2.

    as I read and listened to your links it clearly dawned in me that a lot of the words sounded VERY MUCH like todays conservatives/tea baggers

    now THAT is chilling.
     
  3. Big Fitz
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    No, I'm pointing out that our children have been corrupted by a philosophy of death that needs to be combated.

    Yes, I heard a lot of things being said in the video and said in their manifesto but when you dig deeper to their desires on correcting it, they are all progressive/collectivist solutions. They have nothing that matches the desire for a return to fundamental constitutional values and individual rights.

    That's what I found worrisome. There is no knowledge or love for our national heritage in them. There is more love and devotion to foreign lands in which their rights to say what they do here would be curtailed or imprisonable.

    That's the terror behind it all. Global progressive collectivism.
     
  4. Woyzeck
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    The OP seems to not get the concept of what Progressivism was and of historical events.

    In fact, the remarks over the professor in Rope don't make sense. Egalitarianism and elitism are two conflicting and contradicting terms. You cannot believe in both.

    In fact, reading over the 'We Declaration' (of which I wasn't aware spoke for everything with a progressive label), it seems more like the OP is simply panicking that today's youth don't agree with him under the guise of 'traditional American values.' Which is hilarious. Because American values or American traditions tend to mean whatever you want them to mean as they apply to you, so long as you are American.

    All in all, it's a rather long and fear-mongering post of why the youth of today should not want change in any of the 'We Declaration.' In my opinion, everything in it is awfully reasonable (if at times a little fear-mongery) concerns about the current climate and what they want done about it.

    Somewhat ironically, the declaration mentions the American Dream turning into the American Nightmare. Its as if the OP and the declaration were using a similar reason. Or something.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  5. Big Fitz
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    After the American revolution, Thomas Paine went to France to assist Robespierre in the French Revolution thinking that the process of liberating men from the tyranny of feudalism and aristocracy was able to continue.

    What he discovered was that the French had not made a critical distinction between human (collective) and individual rights. Anything not helpful to the state or the people was deemed to be worthless and therefore should be disposed of, especially people.

    When Paine raised concerns about this to Robespierre, he was quickly imprisoned. Fortunately, instead of execution and a short prison stay, he was released and sent back to America where he then warned the forming constitutional convention of the madness of collective/human rights and pushed very hard for specific rights held by the individual that could not be violated. He saw personally what evil goes forth in the name of collectivism and human rights.

    This is the danger we are now facing. Both the Tea Parties, and Generation We are angry about the state of the current status quo in this nation. They both agree that the corruption and decline of this nation brought on by the baby boomers mismanagement of this nation must be reversed or we will decline into a 3rd world nation and live a life of poverty, pain and destitution. This is where the similarities end.

    Tea Partiers are all about individual freedom. You listen and read to the Generation We declaration and video, and you don't hear that. You hear and read about the need for human collectivist rights aimed at bringing about globalist progressive collectivism. This philosophy has a track record steeped in blood from hundreds of millions of people since it's inception. They talk about rights to health-care, food, shelter, environmentalism and struggle against 'greed'. The same philosophies that lead to the disaster we are in now. They talk about change, but the solutions they are changing to is like spinning the TV dial all the way around and back to where it was before. They are ignoring history and what the real current nature of the world is... and this can only lead to disaster. They have a foundation of sand.

    The Tea Partiers on the other hand have lived through more history, read more history, know their foundations and the bedrock on which it's made. They see how it's been burried in sand, muck and slime and that we need to strip away the debris that has collected on top of the foundations and get back to the bedrock that have safely guarded and guided this nation for centuries. They understand the realities of economics while Generation We don't seem to understand the basics of how money works.

    You can call this fearmongering if you want. Your label doesn't make it so. You can call a dog a cat and all that does is make you seem the fool. This is just the reality we are in. Individualism must triumph over collectivism or there will be nothing to stop us from sliding into a new dark age inside a generation or two. Most who can't tell the difference between collective rights and individual rights won't get the wisdom or warning in this thread. I won't be surprised.
     
  6. Woyzeck
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    How is this relevant at all to this young, progressive Generation We movement you're going off against? I've read the declaration and watched the video. These people aren't revolutionaries, they're simply a political movement attempting to organize and appeal to people, specifically, the young demographic. You see these kind of groups all the time, for liberals, conservatives, libertarians, whatever political orientation, its probably out there. They've got the same type of website and videos. They aren't revolutionaries, they just attempt to appeal to people to agree with their views.

    Then tell me, why I shouldn't fear you as well? The Tea Party is a political movement as well, same as Generation We, but from the other side of the aisle, so to speak.

    I don't recall hearing the phrase "human collectivist rights" or "globalist progrssive collectivism." How do you define these? Elaborate a little instead of just attempting to tie it to things with naughty reputations. In fact, that's the only thing you've done here besides mention collectivism.

    From what I gathered in the video and declaration, Generation We isn't interested in taking away rights, but taking control of what they see as the problems that the government isn't handling.

    The Tea Party itself also talks about change to some degree, am I right? Shouldn't your arguments apply to that as well? Also, if Generation's We changes are going to 'spin the dial to where it was before,' what does it mean for the conservative Tea Partiers? By the very definition of conservatism you want things to stay the same, or go back to previous ways. Aren't you spinning around the dial as well, so to speak, but leaving it further back than it was?

    You bring up Paine, and the French Revolution, but outside of trying to tie in all leftist movements with violent revolution, you haven't used much of what you've claimed to read. Generation We isn't the Black Panther Party. They haven't advocated bloodshed, or anything radical. They're trying to organize a block of voters in the demographic they're shooting for, unite similar-minded young people to have some power.

    Isn't the Tea Party similar to that? Uniting a group of people into some cohesive ideas to have some voting strength to affect state and national policy?

    It is fear-mongering however. As I said before, I read the declaration and watched the video. Generation We was suggesting nothing radical, not anymore than any other movement on any side of the spectrum out there. They are no more radical than any other organized political movement. You have given no evidence but some key terms that you feel they describe and are well deserving of panic. However there is no concrete evidence to this outside your claims.

    And before you go off on another tangent about historical movements, I shall leave you off with this. All political movements can fall to the corruption and the radicalism. ALL movements. That includes the Tea Party. Generation We is just as likely to put on a Reign of Terror, as the Tea Party as likely to start calling someone Il Duce and start puttin' on the Ritz.
     
  7. pans trogladyta
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    pans trogladyta Liberal, Atheist

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    You know they can probably treat whatever it is you have.
     
  8. Mr.Fitnah
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    Mr.Fitnah Dreamcrusher

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    I think they are inflating the whole effort
    Amazon Bestsellers Rank: #76,042 in Books
    I had heard less then 5000 copies had been sold fewer still read the reviews are scathing
    [ame=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0982093101/younevercal03-20-20]Amazon.com: Generation We: How Millennial Youth are Taking Over America And Changing Our World Forever (9780982093108): Eric Greenberg, Karl Weber, DesignPool: Books[/ame]

    [​IMG]

    The book won the eric hoffer award which is more interesting then the Gen we movement.
    Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
    Eric Hoffer

    We lie the loudest when we lie to ourselves.
    Eric Hoffer

    When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other.
    Eric Hoffer


    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLtdTJ3gIvw]YouTube - The True Believer (Eric Hoffer)[/ame]

    There was a short thread on gen we some time back
    It is pure astroturf.
    http://www.usmessageboard.com/politics/105850-progressive-propaganda.html
     
  9. Big Fitz
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    Do you even understand who is BEHIND them? When you don't look at who's paying for the party, playing the music and setting up the foundation, you ignore the fundamental power behind the group. Focus on the kids, by all means. They are being used as tools, as all revolutionaries have before them. The young and innocent and idealistic are very easy targets to corrupt and turn into weapons for your cause.

    If you are progressive, you should. I wish and work for the end of your political faith.

    The phrase "Human Rights" have always meant collective rights, never Individual Rights. That's what makes the US constitution so unique. They don't use human right analogues, but rights you personally as an individual have. A very subtle but critical difference.

    But they are espousing 'problems' that are 'solved' by the creation of collective rights. Universal education, environmental protection and health care are economically nonviable and anti-individualist. They required government interference in people's individual lives for the sake of the group/collective/nation as a whole. This is untenable in our current form of government.

    No. They are declaring a RETURN to the governmental foundation and a purging of government corruption. They are not looking to add or remove rights we are supposed to have, only return rights that have been corrupted and burried under bureaucracy. They are also about ending fiscal irresponsibility and returning the Federal Government to it's very small non-charitable constitutionally correct size, and give most of the powers back to the states where it belongs.

    Generation We wants to 'do' things to try and create a utopia that cannot exist by 'adding rights' that aren't constitutional and often contrary to the spirit of the spirit of the documents and desires of our founding father. Remember, we fled a nation of almost complete government control. Someone controlling your life from birth to death and given the power to tell you what God to even worship and how to do it. They came to this land to create a nation for the individual to live free and do for themself to the best of their ability and achieve as best they can. Not a new king, nobility and caste system. "No more kings" ring any bells?

    Generation We is Axelrod Astroturfing, the Tea Partiers are outrage at the erosion of our freedom and profound desire to return to our constitutional roots. If you cannot tell the difference I don't know how to help you.

    That is true. All it takes is a cult of personality. Currently there is only one operating in the US: Barack Hussein Obama. Unqualified, no track record, out of the blue and trendy. Now a shining example of incompetence and under-qualification to the entire world, but people still like him and people still follow him in what can only be described as a messianic thrall. But of the two groups, the Tea Partiers are the only group that understands the danger of the cult of personality. The last cult of personality this nation went through was probably JFK.

    That said, don't forget, Tea Parties are not a unified group of people by organization, while Generation We is in the mold of American's Coming Together, NAACP, ACORN and other leftist organizations organized for political action. They have a core of hard believers at the top who are really in control and then the foot-soldiers they organized to create community agitation.

    The two groups could not be further apart so your desire to how complete equivalency in moral relativistic terms is a fail.

    The last time we had to cure the political disease of progressivism, it cost 20 million lives world wide.
     
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  10. Woyzeck
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    You or the links you provided gave very little information on this. The Gen We site has contributors from various software and tech companies (who probably just help them set up the site or the programs or something), and the two authors who don't have any ties to any major political organization. Are you privy to some other information that you have yet to provide that the rest of us don't know about? I'm not seeing anything concrete here to back up your point.

    Congratulations on accomplishing two things. Not answering my question at all and assuming I'm a progressive or that I would label myself as such.

    No, just no. The fact is, human rights is really far too broad a concept to really nail down with silly semantics like that. Human rights can just as easily include the things found in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution as a whole. Isn't part of human rights things like right to vote, right to a fair trial and stuff like that? It can, and that's generally what a lot of people mean or think of when 'human rights' comes up.

    European countries seem to pull it off just fine, and they seem to be just fine. Anti-individualist? Educating everyone is against individuals? Providing healthcare is against individuals? Protecting the environment, you know that whole thing around us, that thing we aren't adapted well to survive if we majorly bung it up, is anti-individualist? Are they advocating everyone must go to a state hospital or state school? Have they put this in their declaration, have you read their concrete policy ideas outside the mission statement of the Declaration?

    You may disagree with such tenants on health and education, and that's fine. However, its hardly an excuse to panic and foam at the mouth this much over Generation We, anymore than it is for someone from their organization to do so about the Tea Party.

    That's all very well and good, however you missed a major point. You're a political organization, why should I fear Generation We and not you? You both have political goals in mind, and you're organizing and trying to sway people to enact those goals into American government.

    This is an important bit which you've yet to answer, once again, why should I not fear you just as much as Generation We? You may differ on policy but you are both at the heart of a political movement.

    And also, if you're talking about changing the current status quo, congrats buddy, you want some change in government.

    I thought you said they were taking away rights. How are they contrary exactly? Times change, the Fathers knew that. They were some pretty bright chaps, but they weren't the almighty gods of America. They knew times were going to change, and in order for the country to stay together and remain as stable as possible, it must be open to avenues of change.

    Also. You don't know jack about history. Did you even pay attention in class, or at least crack open any basic American Revolution textbook?

    We did not flee a mother country of almost complete government control. Britain was not like that in the 1700s. They were putting more taxes on us sure, to pay for a war whose primary goal was protecting the American colonies! We were also some of the least taxed people within the British Empire, and the new taxes put us on even footing with the taxpayers in England at the time. But this is getting off topic.

    How could we have founded this nation about freedom with no castes or kings, when we still had slavery? When they offered Washington the crown to this country?

    One more thing. You claim that the nation was for the individual to live free as he or she so desires. So why are you railing on about the evils of progressivism, aren't they simply executing their individual rights as you say so? You asked at the end of your first post how we could allow progressivism to live on? This sounds rather anti-freedom to me.

    Yet you don't like progressives and want them done away with. Good job on being tough on the erosion of freedoms.

    By the way, any concrete evidence from reputable sources that its Axelrod? Again, are you privy to some secret information you're not sharing? You're making these accusations, the burden of proof is upon you to back them up.

    You also missed my original point by focusing on specifics. You're not similar because of views or goals, you're similar because you're both political movements. That's like taking a human being who says one thing, and another who says one thing, and says because the first doesn't say the same things as the second, he's not a human being.

    I reiterate for a third time, Generation We and the Tea Party are both political movements, why should I not fear you just as much as I should fear Generation We?

    I'm sorry, what does Obama have to do with this? We're not talking about the current Democratic administration, we're talking about a political movement, specifically the Tea Party and Generation We.. Not actual parties. Huge difference. You're not giving much of a rebuttal here, outside of raking mud and tossing it at people you clearly disagree with.

    If the Tea Party is not an organized group of people, how can you say what they stand for? How can you know what the goals of it are? If they weren't an organized group of people, then how could they want a return to governmantal foundation and a purging of corruption? How would you know that they want to return certain rights, become fiscally responsible, and have the government be small if they are not an organized movement? If they weren't organized, you could not safely say what the difference between the Tea Party and Generation We is on policy issues, as you have described.

    Your replies however, have been a fail. Because you have been overlooking my main point and question. it is not about "equivalency in moral relativistic terms." It is about how you are both political movements and therefore could just as easily fall to radicalism and extremism as you described. It's not a leftist phenomenon. Why is Generation We to be feared? Why is progessivism to be feared and the Tea Party cherished?

    But, I know the answer. It's become quite clear. You don't like the progressives or whoever you keep trying to call such because you don't agree with their views or their policies. This is fine, but you've elected to misrepresent them and try to tie them in with things with a not so great reputation. Does this mean I'm allowed to paint the Tea Party in with the more extreme right-wing fanaticism in history?

    If I must fear Generation We, I must fear the Tea Party as well.
     

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