Ron Paul: ~ 8/02/10 ~ "The Trouble With Unconstitutional Wars"

[Reasoning]

The Trouble With Unconstitutional Wars

Our foreign policy was in the spotlight last week, which is exactly where it should be. Almost two years ago many voters elected someone they thought would lead us to a more peaceful, rational co-existence with other countries.

However, while attention has been focused on the administration’s disastrous economic policies, its equally disastrous foreign policies have exacerbated our problems overseas. Especially in times of economic crisis, we cannot afford to ignore costly foreign policy mistakes. That’s why it is important that U.S. foreign policy receive some much needed attention in the media, as it did last week with the leaked documents scandal.

Many are saying that the Wikileaks documents tell us nothing new. In some ways this is true. Most Americans knew that we have been fighting losing battles. These documents show just how bad it really is. The revelation that Pakistani intelligence is assisting the people we are bombing in Afghanistan shows the quality of friends we are making with our foreign policy. This kind of thing supports points that Rep. Dennis Kucinich and I tried to make on the House floor last week with a privileged resolution that would have directed the administration to remove troops from Pakistan pursuant to the War Powers Resolution.

We are not at war with Pakistan. Congress has made no declaration of war. (Actually, we made no declaration of war on Iraq or Afghanistan either, but that is another matter.) Yet we have troops in Pakistan engaging in hostile activities, conducting drone attacks and killing people. We sometimes manage to kill someone who has been identified as an enemy, yet we also kill about 10 civilians for every 1 of those.

Pakistani civilians are angered by this, yet their leadership is mollified by our billions in bribe money. We just passed an appropriations bill that will send another $7.5 billion to Pakistan. One wonders how much of this money will end up helping the Taliban. This whole operation is clearly counterproductive, inappropriate, immoral and every American who values the rule of law should be outraged. Yet these activities are being done so quietly that most Americans, as well as most members of the House, don’t even know about them.

We should follow constitutional protocol when going to war. It is there for a reason. If we are legitimately attacked, it is the job of Congress to declare war. We then fight the war, win it and come home. War should be efficient, decisive and rare. However, when Congress shirks its duty and just gives the administration whatever it wants with no real oversight or meaningful debate, wars are never-ending, wasteful, and political. Our so-called wars have become a perpetual drain on our economy and liberty.

The founders knew that heads of state are far too eager to engage in military conflicts. That is why they entrusted the power to go to war with the deliberative body closest to the people – the Congress. Decisions to go to war need to be supported by the people. War should not be covert or casual. We absolutely should not be paying off leaders of a country while killing their civilians without expecting to create a lot of new problems. This is not what America is supposed to be about.

Posted by Ron Paul (08-02-2010, 01:27 PM) filed under Foreign Policy

 

[Epsilon Delta]

I remember the Republican debates last election when Ron Paul would pull one of these and it would be just HILARIOUS to see the other Republicans look at each other in total disbelief, as though they literally could not understand what he was saying; as though he was speaking Uighur or something.

But yes, mostly agree. On the War theme, I've always liked Ron Paul, and think he's more honest and more sensible than most members of either party. I also like that he walks the walk, too.

 

[topspin]

Ron is one of a few republicans against the war on MJ.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I mostly agree.

Would you like to discuss further?

 

[Richard-H]

I couldn't agree more that all wars should require c a congressional declaration per the Constitution. BUT-

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that after 9/11 Congress and the American people would have whole heartedly supported a declaration of war against the Taliban?

Ron Paul seems to be exclusively focused on Afganistan. He wouldn't dare say that, based on the same principle, the Vietnam War was dead wrong.

Right now, America's problem with wars is not as much that they are not declared by Congress, but that a very complex network of career officiers and the military Industrial complex make too much money from prolonged wars. They do not want to win and they do everything in their power to insure that we never win.

We can, and should, win the war in Afganistan in a week.

HOLY SHIT! A small group of primitive tribesman who have no major outside support have effectively stalemated the most powerful nation that has ever existed?!?!?!

YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!

A complete reorganization of the Pentagon and the military Industrial complex is the only way that America will win this or any other war.

After all, if they can't beat the an encircled Taliban - even with Pakistaini intelligence support - THEY ARE NOT WORTH SHIT!

Here's an idea - carpet bomb the entire region for 2 years straight - like we did to the Germans.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

We should follow constitutional protocol when going to war. It is there for a reason. If we are legitimately attacked, it is the job of Congress to declare war.

I guess it only takes Republicans 7 years and a democratic president to realize that their idea of preemptive strike (on a country that really wasnt a threat) and the Iraq invasion were bullshit.

Here's an idea - carpet bomb the entire region for 2 years straight - like we did to the Germans.

Well there goes any moral high ground the USA had in claiming that they want to bring democracy, freedom, and a stable/legitimate government in Afghanistan. But if all the people are dead that stuff really becomes a non issue.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is NO requirement for Congress to make an official declaration of war for a war or conflict to be "Constitutional".

In fact no war the US has engaged in has been unconstitutional. Congress has approved everyone and voted to PAY for them. As required by the Constitution.

 

[Richard-H]

We should follow constitutional protocol when going to war. It is there for a reason. If we are legitimately attacked, it is the job of Congress to declare war.

I guess it only takes Republicans 7 years and a democratic president to realize that their idea of preemptive strike (on a country that really wasnt a threat) and the Iraq invasion were bullshit.

Here's an idea - carpet bomb the entire region for 2 years straight - like we did to the Germans.

Well there goes any moral high ground the USA had in claiming that they want to bring democracy, freedom, and a stable/legitimate government in Afghanistan. But if all the people are dead that stuff really becomes a non issue.

FUCK bringing Democracy, freedom, and a stable legitimate government to Afganistan!

Afganistan is NOT Vietnam or Iraq. They supported a regime that is responsible for killing thousands of American citizens. WE OWE THEM NOTHING BUT DEATH!

Did we put nation building as a priority before we nuked Hiroshima or fire bombed Dresden?

Poeple are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government.

Sure, after we've bombed the living shit out of 'em, we'll establish a democracy - and if the don't like it we'll bomb the shit out of them again.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

We should follow constitutional protocol when going to war. It is there for a reason. If we are legitimately attacked, it is the job of Congress to declare war.

I guess it only takes Republicans 7 years and a democratic president to realize that their idea of preemptive strike (on a country that really wasnt a threat) and the Iraq invasion were bullshit.

Here's an idea - carpet bomb the entire region for 2 years straight - like we did to the Germans.

Well there goes any moral high ground the USA had in claiming that they want to bring democracy, freedom, and a stable/legitimate government in Afghanistan. But if all the people are dead that stuff really becomes a non issue.

FUCK bringing Democracy, freedom, and a stable legitimate government to Afganistan!

Afganistan is NOT Vietnam or Iraq. They supported a regime that is responsible for killing thousands of American citizens. WE OWE THEM NOTHING BUT DEATH!

Did we put nation building as a priority before we nuked Hiroshima or fire bombed Dresden?

Poeple are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government.

Sure, after we've bombed the living shit out of 'em, we'll establish a democracy - and if the don't like it we'll bomb the shit out of them again.

You are despicable. This is exactly the kind of mindset that only gives credence and justification to the actions of the terrorists on 9/11 and would reveal America as an unjust, imperialist, oppressor, etc etc. And no, the actions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not reflect the people of Afghanistan. Thank God today most Americans dont feel the same way you do.

 

[Richard-H]

I guess it only takes Republicans 7 years and a democratic president to realize that their idea of preemptive strike (on a country that really wasnt a threat) and the Iraq invasion were bullshit.



Well there goes any moral high ground the USA had in claiming that they want to bring democracy, freedom, and a stable/legitimate government in Afghanistan. But if all the people are dead that stuff really becomes a non issue.

FUCK bringing Democracy, freedom, and a stable legitimate government to Afganistan!

Afganistan is NOT Vietnam or Iraq. They supported a regime that is responsible for killing thousands of American citizens. WE OWE THEM NOTHING BUT DEATH!

Did we put nation building as a priority before we nuked Hiroshima or fire bombed Dresden?

Poeple are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government.

Sure, after we've bombed the living shit out of 'em, we'll establish a democracy - and if the don't like it we'll bomb the shit out of them again.

You are despicable. This is exactly the kind of mindset that only gives credence and justification to the actions of the terrorists on 9/11 and would reveal America as an unjust, imperialist, oppressor, etc etc. And no, the actions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not reflect the people of Afghanistan. Thank God today most Americans dont feel the same way you do.

No it is not the kind of mindset that justifies 9/11. It's the kind of mindset that justifies the avenging of Pearl Harbor or the avenging of the sinking of hundreds of U.S. merchant Marine ships by the Germans.

It is the type of mindset that makes sure that a 9/11 will never happen again.

It is you that promotes terrorism by giving in to the terrorists. By telling them that ultimately they can murder thousands of innocent people with impunity. That we should just give up and forget all those people who were murdered.

If you don't support the Taliban, then pack a suitcase and move out, but if moving is too troublesome, then you made your choice and you deserve what you get.

My Grandmother moved out of Germany when the Nazi's took over - and she wasn't even Jewish.

History has repeatedly proven that no governement and no army can exist without overwhelming support of the local population. If the Taliban are continuing to exist is the south east of Afganistan, it is only with the support of the people of that region. That in turn means that those people support the mass murder of thousands of innocent people throughout the world. They deserve nothing from us but death.

 

[Bill O'Olberman]

It is you that promotes terrorism by giving in to the terrorists. By telling them that ultimately they can murder thousands of innocent people with impunity. That we should just give up and forget all those people who were murdered.

No, Im not giving in, giving up, or forgetting anything. Im fine with killing terrorists and those with the intent or means of killing Americans. However, your idea of the indiscriminate killing of people in a given area is complete bullshit. Just because thousands of innocent americans were killed doesnt justify the killing of thousands of innocent afghanis (they are not guilty simply because they inhabit a certain area). Also, this is not the 1940s.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There is NO requirement for Congress to make an official declaration of war for a war or conflict to be "Constitutional".

In fact no war the US has engaged in has been unconstitutional. Congress has approved everyone and voted to PAY for them. As required by the Constitution.

"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..." - Article 1, Section 8, U.S. Constitution

You think the framers specifically stated this as a power of the Congress if it meant nothing?

 

[Richard-H]

It is you that promotes terrorism by giving in to the terrorists. By telling them that ultimately they can murder thousands of innocent people with impunity. That we should just give up and forget all those people who were murdered.

No, Im not giving in, giving up, or forgetting anything. Im fine with killing terrorists and those with the intent or means of killing Americans. However, your idea of the indiscriminate killing of people in a given area is complete bullshit. Just because thousands of innocent americans were killed doesnt justify the killing of thousands of innocent afghanis (they are not guilty simply because they inhabit a certain area). Also, this is not the 1940s.

There isn't a whole lot of difference between now and 1940. Murder is still murder. If these people do not want to live under Taliban rule, they can stop giving the Taliban their support, but for as long as they continue to support the Taliban, they are GUILTY.

I realize that the idea that the Taliban cannot survive without the support of the local people is new to you, but it is a fact. The English tried to conquer France for a hundred years, but despite extremely superior military force, could not - simply because the French people defied them.

We could not win in Vietnam with overwhelming military superiority, becuase the Vietnamese people defied us.

This is REALITY. (Despite the fact the military leaders never want to admit it).No military or government can survive without the support of the local population.

If the number of people who oppose the Taliban is so few- then those people should move out. If the number is sizable, then they should oppose the Taliban with our support. The Taliban could not survive more than a few months.

The problem is that the people of southeast Afganistan overwhelmingly support the Taliban - you can tell easily just by the resilience of the Taliban in the region (of course it's the very roots of Taliban culture).

The people of southeats Afganistan are NOT innocent and thats all there is to it.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is NO requirement for Congress to make an official declaration of war for a war or conflict to be "Constitutional".

In fact no war the US has engaged in has been unconstitutional. Congress has approved everyone and voted to PAY for them. As required by the Constitution.

"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..." - Article 1, Section 8, U.S. Constitution

You think the framers specifically stated this as a power of the Congress if it meant nothing?

Now provide a passage from the Constitution that states the ONLY option is to declare war. Let me help you, you won't find it. What you will find is that the President is commander in chief and with consent of Congress can do anything he wants with our military.

 

[eots]

what country did we declare war with ???... I must have missed that...

 

[eots]

FUCK bringing Democracy, freedom, and a stable legitimate government to Afganistan!

Afganistan is NOT Vietnam or Iraq. They supported a regime that is responsible for killing thousands of American citizens. WE OWE THEM NOTHING BUT DEATH!

Did we put nation building as a priority before we nuked Hiroshima or fire bombed Dresden?

Poeple are ultimately responsible for the actions of their government.

Sure, after we've bombed the living shit out of 'em, we'll establish a democracy - and if the don't like it we'll bomb the shit out of them again.

You are despicable. This is exactly the kind of mindset that only gives credence and justification to the actions of the terrorists on 9/11 and would reveal America as an unjust, imperialist, oppressor, etc etc. And no, the actions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not reflect the people of Afghanistan. Thank God today most Americans dont feel the same way you do.

No it is not the kind of mindset that justifies 9/11. It's the kind of mindset that justifies the avenging of Pearl Harbor or the avenging of the sinking of hundreds of U.S. merchant Marine ships by the Germans.

It is the type of mindset that makes sure that a 9/11 will never happen again.

It is you that promotes terrorism by giving in to the terrorists. By telling them that ultimately they can murder thousands of innocent people with impunity. That we should just give up and forget all those people who were murdered.

If you don't support the Taliban, then pack a suitcase and move out, but if moving is too troublesome, then you made your choice and you deserve what you get.

My Grandmother moved out of Germany when the Nazi's took over - and she wasn't even Jewish.

History has repeatedly proven that no governement and no army can exist without overwhelming support of the local population. If the Taliban are continuing to exist is the south east of Afganistan, it is only with the support of the people of that region. That in turn means that those people support the mass murder of thousands of innocent people throughout the world. They deserve nothing from us but death.

9/11 was a false flag operation to win support for the invasion of sovereign nations....dummy

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You are despicable. This is exactly the kind of mindset that only gives credence and justification to the actions of the terrorists on 9/11 and would reveal America as an unjust, imperialist, oppressor, etc etc. And no, the actions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda do not reflect the people of Afghanistan. Thank God today most Americans dont feel the same way you do.

No it is not the kind of mindset that justifies 9/11. It's the kind of mindset that justifies the avenging of Pearl Harbor or the avenging of the sinking of hundreds of U.S. merchant Marine ships by the Germans.

It is the type of mindset that makes sure that a 9/11 will never happen again.

It is you that promotes terrorism by giving in to the terrorists. By telling them that ultimately they can murder thousands of innocent people with impunity. That we should just give up and forget all those people who were murdered.

If you don't support the Taliban, then pack a suitcase and move out, but if moving is too troublesome, then you made your choice and you deserve what you get.

My Grandmother moved out of Germany when the Nazi's took over - and she wasn't even Jewish.

History has repeatedly proven that no governement and no army can exist without overwhelming support of the local population. If the Taliban are continuing to exist is the south east of Afganistan, it is only with the support of the people of that region. That in turn means that those people support the mass murder of thousands of innocent people throughout the world. They deserve nothing from us but death.

9/11 was a false flag operation to win support for the invasion of sovereign nations....dummy

Take your delusions elsewhere.

 

[eots]

No it is not the kind of mindset that justifies 9/11. It's the kind of mindset that justifies the avenging of Pearl Harbor or the avenging of the sinking of hundreds of U.S. merchant Marine ships by the Germans.

It is the type of mindset that makes sure that a 9/11 will never happen again.

It is you that promotes terrorism by giving in to the terrorists. By telling them that ultimately they can murder thousands of innocent people with impunity. That we should just give up and forget all those people who were murdered.

If you don't support the Taliban, then pack a suitcase and move out, but if moving is too troublesome, then you made your choice and you deserve what you get.

My Grandmother moved out of Germany when the Nazi's took over - and she wasn't even Jewish.

History has repeatedly proven that no governement and no army can exist without overwhelming support of the local population. If the Taliban are continuing to exist is the sosuth east of Afganistan, it is only with the support of the people of that region. That in turn means that those people support the mass murder of thousands of innocent people throughout the world. They deserve nothing from us but death.

9/11 was a false flag operation to win support for the invasion of sovereign nations....dummy

Take your delusions elsewhere.

delusions.?.you mean like Saddams stock pile of weapons of mass destruction ?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There is NO requirement for Congress to make an official declaration of war for a war or conflict to be "Constitutional".

In fact no war the US has engaged in has been unconstitutional. Congress has approved everyone and voted to PAY for them. As required by the Constitution.

"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..." - Article 1, Section 8, U.S. Constitution

You think the framers specifically stated this as a power of the Congress if it meant nothing?

Now provide a passage from the Constitution that states the ONLY option is to declare war. Let me help you, you won't find it. What you will find is that the President is commander in chief and with consent of Congress can do anything he wants with our military.

Then what is the point of a declaration of war?

There is this little gem from Alexander Hamilton regarding declarations of war, and Presidential war powers:

"The President is to be commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States. In this respect his authority would be nominally the same with that of the king of Great Britain, bit in substance much inferior to it. It would amount to nothing than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first General and admiral of the Confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies--all of which, by the Constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature."

In other words, the President can't do anything until war has officially been declared by the legislature.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..." - Article 1, Section 8, U.S. Constitution

You think the framers specifically stated this as a power of the Congress if it meant nothing?

Now provide a passage from the Constitution that states the ONLY option is to declare war. Let me help you, you won't find it. What you will find is that the President is commander in chief and with consent of Congress can do anything he wants with our military.

Then what is the point of a declaration of war?

There is this little gem from Alexander Hamilton regarding declarations of war, and Presidential war powers:

"The President is to be commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States. In this respect his authority would be nominally the same with that of the king of Great Britain, bit in substance much inferior to it. It would amount to nothing than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first General and admiral of the Confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies--all of which, by the Constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature."

In other words, the President can't do anything until war has officially been declared by the legislature.

And now provide any evidence that any conflict we have been in with out a declaration of war was not properly approved of and paid for by Congress. Once again just because Congress has the power to declare a war does not mean that is all they can do. If that were the intent it would be worded that way.

You are aware we had one of our first conflicts with Barbary Pirates in North Africa, remind me, was there a declaration of war? Almost all the founders were still alive then. Perhaps you can find me a dissertation from some of them on how the Barbary Pirate conflict was mishandled because all Congress was allowed to do when faced with foreign aggression was declare war.