Republicans Will Pay For This In Spades

[Ray From Cleveland]

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore. Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

I wasn't aware that the laws of science were subject to polls.

1 In 4 Americans Thinks The Sun Goes Around The Earth, Survey Says

The same percentage believe that Jesus will return during their lifetime LOL

About global warming.....it's there in spades. All one has to do is look and listen.

True, there's no shortage of bullshit and propaganda. Knowing when you're being fed a line of shit takes a little brain power, which is the only reason that the AGW scam hasn't already collapsed.

Every time I begin to think that Republicans have brain power I think of Sarah Palin actually running for vice president of the United States...what a numbnuts!

Hey! Anything is possible in this country:

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Republicans are for any energy as long as it's just as cheap and reliable as the energy we use now.

Demonstrably false. They have done everything they could to prevent alternative energy from being nurtured with the same tax breaks and subsidies that established fossil fuel has had for years. That's just a fact.

For one, the fuel producers get no more tax breaks than other companies. Two, the last initiative by Bush before he left WAS to give funding to alternative fuels.

Strange.....what I remembered him giving away was $800 billion to the banks to avoid a self imposed economic depression. Republicans are good at depressions.....just ask anybody over 80 years old.

What does that have to do with what I wrote? Can't address the subject, then don't respond.

 

[Dana7360]

I've got some incandescent lights I'm selling behind the 7-11....

Ok I guess you're not that serious about this subject.

That's fine. We all have our own different views and priorities.

 

[Freewill]

Obama and Kerry suffer at the summit over a working dinner:

When in Paris… President Obama has a ‘working dinner’ at three-star eatery

 

[Freewill]

Obama Trip To The 'Global Warming' Summit Emits More CO2 Than Driving 72 Cars For A Year...
Conference will produce '300,000 TONS'...
China to launch carbon-tracking satellites into space...
Beijing chokes under cloud of poisonous smog...
Florida sets record of 10 years without major hurricane...
POPE: World headed toward 'suicide' if no agreement...
Why Paris Deal Is Meaningless...
Leaders pledge billions to curb emissions...
Talks tinged by anxiety amid outpouring of promises...

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

At this point in the Bush years we had two hot wars and a stream of young dead Americans showing up at Dover each day:

Hamstrung by Congress, GOP opposition, Obama heads to Paris to clinch global climate agreement

"President Barack Obama is trying to negotiate a legacy-making climate change pact this coming week in Paris with one hand tied behind his back. Congress can't even agree whether global warming is real.

Scientists point to the global agreement, years in the making, as the last, best hope for averting the worst effects of global warming. Obama has spent months prodding other countries to make ambitious carbon-cutting pledges to the agreement, which he hopes will become the framework for countries to tackle the climate issue long beyond the end of his presidency in early 2017.

But Republicans have tried to undermine the president by sowing uncertainty about whether the U.S. will make good on its promises. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and other GOP leaders have warned other countries not to trust any deal Obama may strike; other GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore.

Really? So Al Gore was around in 1896, and his name was Svante Arrhenius?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...Fn7Kz3RQf41A8Jr46g1cZA&bvm=bv.108194040,d.cGc

Forgive me if I don't believe you!

Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

Wow. You literally believe that we can just wish the truth however we see fit. You may be one of the dumbest people I've met today.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Obama Trip To The 'Global Warming' Summit Emits More CO2 Than Driving 72 Cars For A Year...
Conference will produce '300,000 TONS'...
China to launch carbon-tracking satellites into space...
Beijing chokes under cloud of poisonous smog...
Florida sets record of 10 years without major hurricane...
POPE: World headed toward 'suicide' if no agreement...
Why Paris Deal Is Meaningless...
Leaders pledge billions to curb emissions...
Talks tinged by anxiety amid outpouring of promises...

Its interesting how RW logic works.

Obama burned a bunch of fossil fuels flying somewhere - therefore, global warming is a lie.

That's some solid fucking logic there. Its a wonder you've been unable to get it published.

 

[westwall]

At this point in the Bush years we had two hot wars and a stream of young dead Americans showing up at Dover each day:

Hamstrung by Congress, GOP opposition, Obama heads to Paris to clinch global climate agreement

"President Barack Obama is trying to negotiate a legacy-making climate change pact this coming week in Paris with one hand tied behind his back. Congress can't even agree whether global warming is real.

Scientists point to the global agreement, years in the making, as the last, best hope for averting the worst effects of global warming. Obama has spent months prodding other countries to make ambitious carbon-cutting pledges to the agreement, which he hopes will become the framework for countries to tackle the climate issue long beyond the end of his presidency in early 2017.

But Republicans have tried to undermine the president by sowing uncertainty about whether the U.S. will make good on its promises. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and other GOP leaders have warned other countries not to trust any deal Obama may strike; other GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore. Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

Bullshit!!!!!!!

"69 percent of Americans believed that global warming is caused mainly by human activities (57%), or caused equally by humans and natural changes (12%), while only 29 percent believed it is caused mostly by natural changes in the environment. - See more at:

American Opinions on Global Warming: A Yale/Gallup/Clearvision Poll

No, they don't.

 

[JoeB131]

Whenever one of you dumbass members of the AGW cult claim there's a "scientific consensus" on AGW, you're saying truth is determined by a poll.

well, no, we point out that PEOPLE WHO STUDY THIS SUBJECT universally think this is a real thing.

Kind of like if you go to 100 Doctors, and 99 of them say, Stop Smoking or you are going to DIE!!!

You don't say, "Well, I'm going to listen to this one doctor who says go ahead and smoke!"

 

[Campbell]

Obama Trip To The 'Global Warming' Summit Emits More CO2 Than Driving 72 Cars For A Year...
Conference will produce '300,000 TONS'...
China to launch carbon-tracking satellites into space...
Beijing chokes under cloud of poisonous smog...
Florida sets record of 10 years without major hurricane...
POPE: World headed toward 'suicide' if no agreement...
Why Paris Deal Is Meaningless...
Leaders pledge billions to curb emissions...
Talks tinged by anxiety amid outpouring of promises...

Its interesting how RW logic works.

Obama burned a bunch of fossil fuels flying somewhere - therefore, global warming is a lie.

That's some solid fucking logic there. Its a wonder you've been unable to get it published.

They're typical Republicans. They obviously care nothing about anybody outside their family and big business. Their slogan is "Fuck The Poor...Let Them Pull Themselves Up By Their Bootstraps...Even If The Have No Hands Or Legs!"

 

[Campbell]

At this point in the Bush years we had two hot wars and a stream of young dead Americans showing up at Dover each day:

Hamstrung by Congress, GOP opposition, Obama heads to Paris to clinch global climate agreement

"President Barack Obama is trying to negotiate a legacy-making climate change pact this coming week in Paris with one hand tied behind his back. Congress can't even agree whether global warming is real.

Scientists point to the global agreement, years in the making, as the last, best hope for averting the worst effects of global warming. Obama has spent months prodding other countries to make ambitious carbon-cutting pledges to the agreement, which he hopes will become the framework for countries to tackle the climate issue long beyond the end of his presidency in early 2017.

But Republicans have tried to undermine the president by sowing uncertainty about whether the U.S. will make good on its promises. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and other GOP leaders have warned other countries not to trust any deal Obama may strike; other GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore. Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

LMAO Al Gore thought up global warming? It's too funny.

You are so so full of shit:


Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and that it is extremely likely (meaning, of at least 95% probability or higher) that humans are causing most of it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels. In addition, it is likely that some potential further greenhouse gas warming has been offset by increased aerosols.[2][3][4][5]

National and international science academies and scientific societies have assessed current scientific opinion on global warming. These assessments are generally consistent with the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report summarized:

 

[TooTall]

GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

as well they should!

Oh yes, they are all worried if a GOP President comes in, he will dismantle the messiahs(praise be his name) phony climate change agenda. These lefties are in goosestep/lockstep aren't they! Climate change/Syrian refugees/illegal aliens........ooops scuse me, I meant undocumented immigrants-)

These phony paid astro turf posters are funny! It is no longer working as we both know, but it is amazing to watch them flail away on here and realize that just one political cycle ago, it did.

Don't you wish we were back in the middle of the Bush days when dead young men and women were showing up every day?

I won't even mention that he doubled the national debt because of two tax cuts for the rich....well, I guess I did.

Then along came Obama and we kept getting more KIA from Afghanistan than we did under Bush. Then Obama raised taxes on the high wage earners and kept the low Bush rates in place for the low and middle class. Iguess you knew that Bush lowered taxes for EVERY taxpayer and Obama has manged to double the national debt as well.

 

[TooTall]

Obama Trip To The 'Global Warming' Summit Emits More CO2 Than Driving 72 Cars For A Year...
Conference will produce '300,000 TONS'...
China to launch carbon-tracking satellites into space...
Beijing chokes under cloud of poisonous smog...
Florida sets record of 10 years without major hurricane...
POPE: World headed toward 'suicide' if no agreement...
Why Paris Deal Is Meaningless...
Leaders pledge billions to curb emissions...
Talks tinged by anxiety amid outpouring of promises...

Its interesting how RW logic works.

Obama burned a bunch of fossil fuels flying somewhere - therefore, global warming is a lie.

That's some solid fucking logic there. Its a wonder you've been unable to get it published.

They're typical Republicans. They obviously care nothing about anybody outside their family and big business. Their slogan is "Fuck The Poor...Let Them Pull Themselves Up By Their Bootstraps...Even If The Have No Hands Or Legs!"

Bush cared since he lowered the Income tax on the poor to zero.

 

[TooTall]

After seeing all of the terrible things that Obama is responsible for.....you guys think that people are going to vote for Hillary, and have to deal with more of the same???

You idiots are fucking high!!!

Hillary starts with 243 electoral votes......there is little this group of GOP clowns can do

You're seriously delusional if you think all those votes are locked in.

You think Repblucans start with an even slate?

Boy, you ARE delusional

Of course they don't. Dims have the Praetorian media on their side, academia on their side and almost the entire government on their side. It's a miracle they ever win.

I might point out that we've won the popular vote in five of the last six presidential elections. If it wasn't for cheating and gerrymandering Republicans would never win any kind of national election.

Democrats are much better at cheating and they invented gerrymandering.

 

[TooTall]

At this point in the Bush years we had two hot wars and a stream of young dead Americans showing up at Dover each day:

Hamstrung by Congress, GOP opposition, Obama heads to Paris to clinch global climate agreement

"President Barack Obama is trying to negotiate a legacy-making climate change pact this coming week in Paris with one hand tied behind his back. Congress can't even agree whether global warming is real.

Scientists point to the global agreement, years in the making, as the last, best hope for averting the worst effects of global warming. Obama has spent months prodding other countries to make ambitious carbon-cutting pledges to the agreement, which he hopes will become the framework for countries to tackle the climate issue long beyond the end of his presidency in early 2017.

But Republicans have tried to undermine the president by sowing uncertainty about whether the U.S. will make good on its promises. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and other GOP leaders have warned other countries not to trust any deal Obama may strike; other GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore. Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

Bullshit!!!!!!!

"69 percent of Americans believed that global warming is caused mainly by human activities (57%), or caused equally by humans and natural changes (12%), while only 29 percent believed it is caused mostly by natural changes in the environment. - See more at:

American Opinions on Global Warming: A Yale/Gallup/Clearvision Poll

What do you expect them to think when all they hear in the MSM is how global warming is an undisputed fact? Of course they're gonna agree when they're only given one side of the story as if it's settled science (which it ISN'T). Even if 100% of Americans believe it that doesn't make it a fact. You must think polls = fact.

I know one thing....the Republican party doesn't like anything which benefits the common man unless big business comes up with the idea first and through their campaign donations use influence to get it initiated. Perfect Examples of the same thing on the other side is when FD Roosevelt initiated all the alphabet programs to help ordinary people and John Kennedy declared that by the end of the 60's decade we would put a man on the moon and return him safely to the earth. If he had not done that and put the government to work on it and if Lyndon Johnson had not followed through on it we would still be in a cold war with Russia and they would have a colony on the moon.

Right now some countries are powering nearly all their schools with solar power.....we should be at the forefront. Nuclear power is great but look at Three Mile Island, Chernobyl and the Japanese disaster last year to see why it isn't the most desirable:

View attachment 55862 View attachment 55861 View attachment 55863

On the way back home today from visiting relatives I was gassing up ($1.70 ObamaGas!) and talking to the young guy gassing up next to me. He was there in this little town visiting his mom, and drove from NC. He said he was a solar installer, and they have so much work they can't keep up. He said they do only business currently, but are looking to go into residential, and that they just finished outfitting Falcons Stadium in Atlanta.

These deniers are the same people who just a few years ago were saying that solar would never be cheap enough to compete with fossil fuels, and that funding Solyndra was a mistake.

The only mistake was Republicans not allowing the government to partner with Solyndra like the Chinese government was doing with their solar companies, undercutting U.S. manufacturers to the point that they went under.

Now China leads the market.

Stupid goddamned Republicans.

How much did it cost the government to partner with Solyndra by giving them loans?

 

[Campbell]

GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

as well they should!

Oh yes, they are all worried if a GOP President comes in, he will dismantle the messiahs(praise be his name) phony climate change agenda. These lefties are in goosestep/lockstep aren't they! Climate change/Syrian refugees/illegal aliens........ooops scuse me, I meant undocumented immigrants-)

These phony paid astro turf posters are funny! It is no longer working as we both know, but it is amazing to watch them flail away on here and realize that just one political cycle ago, it did.

Don't you wish we were back in the middle of the Bush days when dead young men and women were showing up every day?

I won't even mention that he doubled the national debt because of two tax cuts for the rich....well, I guess I did.

Then along came Obama and we kept getting more KIA from Afghanistan than we did under Bush. Then Obama raised taxes on the high wage earners and kept the low Bush rates in place for the low and middle class. Iguess you knew that Bush lowered taxes for EVERY taxpayer and Obama has manged to double the national debt as well.

For your information he ended both of Bush's goddam wars.....one totally unnecessary. When Obama took over both wars were blazing, 4500 killed and 35,000 wounded in the unnecessary one. Bush's unemployment was 7.5%...now, after 67 continuous months of job growth it's down to 5.0%. Bush cut taxes twice, continued to spend like a drunk sailor and doubled the national debt. You're nuts.....two trillion dollars of Obama's debt has gone to pay interest on the Reagan/Bushes debt:

Middle class pays higher tax rates than millionaires, Sen. Tammy Baldwin says


In his sixth State of the Union address, President Barack Obama called on Congress to raise taxes on the rich and give tax breaks to the middle class.

It was a message similar to one issued a week earlier by U.S. Sen. Tammy Baldwin, D-Wis.

"For far too long, our tax code has unfairly favored the wealthiest Americans, while middle-class families in Wisconsin have struggled to get ahead," Baldwin said in a Jan. 13, 2015 news release issued with U.S. Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-R.I.

"I’m proud to once again join Senator Whitehouse to introduce the Paying a Fair Share Act, also known as the ‘Buffett rule.’ It is simply unfair to ask middle-class Americans to pay a higher tax rate than millionaires and billionaires."

..........................................................Total U S Debt.....................................................

09/30/2014 $17,824,071,380,733.82
09/30/2013 $16,738,183,526,697.32
09/30/2012 $16,066,241,407,385.89
09/30/2011 $14,790,340,328,557.15
09/30/2010 $13,561,623,030,891.79
09/30/2009 $11,909,829,003,511.75(80% Of All Debt Across 232 Years Borrowed By Reagan And Bushes)
09/30/2008 $10,024,724,896,912.49(Times Square Debt Clock Modified To Accommodate Tens of Trillions)
09/30/2007 $9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 $8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 $7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62(Second Bush Tax Cuts Enacted Using Reconciliation)
09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06(First Bush Tax Cuts Enacted Using Reconciliation)
09/30/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86(Administration And Congress Arguing About How To Use Surplus)
09/30/1999 $5,656,270,901,615.43(First Surplus Generated...On Track To Pay Off Debt By 2012)
09/30/1998 $5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 $5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 $4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 $4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 $4,411,488,883,139.38 ( Debt Quadrupled By Reagan/Bush41)
09/30/1992 $4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 $3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 $3,233,313,451,777.25
09/29/1989 $2,857,430,960,187.32
09/30/1988 $2,602,337,712,041.16
09/30/1987 $2,350,276,890,953.00
09/30/1986 $2,125,302,616,658.42
09/30/1985 $1,823,103,000,000.00
09/30/1984 $1,572,266,000,000.00
09/30/1983 $1,377,210,000,000.00
09/30/1982 $1,142,034,000,000.00(Total Debt Passes $1 Trillion)(Reagan Slashed Tax Rates To Pre Depression Levels)
09/30/1981 $997,855,000,000.00

 

[Esmeralda]

At this point in the Bush years we had two hot wars and a stream of young dead Americans showing up at Dover each day:

Hamstrung by Congress, GOP opposition, Obama heads to Paris to clinch global climate agreement

"President Barack Obama is trying to negotiate a legacy-making climate change pact this coming week in Paris with one hand tied behind his back. Congress can't even agree whether global warming is real.

Scientists point to the global agreement, years in the making, as the last, best hope for averting the worst effects of global warming. Obama has spent months prodding other countries to make ambitious carbon-cutting pledges to the agreement, which he hopes will become the framework for countries to tackle the climate issue long beyond the end of his presidency in early 2017.

But Republicans have tried to undermine the president by sowing uncertainty about whether the U.S. will make good on its promises. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and other GOP leaders have warned other countries not to trust any deal Obama may strike; other GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore. Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

LMAO Al Gore thought up global warming? It's too funny.

You are so so full of shit:


Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and that it is extremely likely (meaning, of at least 95% probability or higher) that humans are causing most of it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels. In addition, it is likely that some potential further greenhouse gas warming has been offset by increased aerosols.[2][3][4][5]

National and international science academies and scientific societies have assessed current scientific opinion on global warming. These assessments are generally consistent with the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report summarized:

I'm not questioning climate change, stupid. I'm questioning the claim by the poster I quoted that Al Gore "thought it up." Good God.

 

[Campbell]

At this point in the Bush years we had two hot wars and a stream of young dead Americans showing up at Dover each day:

Hamstrung by Congress, GOP opposition, Obama heads to Paris to clinch global climate agreement

"President Barack Obama is trying to negotiate a legacy-making climate change pact this coming week in Paris with one hand tied behind his back. Congress can't even agree whether global warming is real.

Scientists point to the global agreement, years in the making, as the last, best hope for averting the worst effects of global warming. Obama has spent months prodding other countries to make ambitious carbon-cutting pledges to the agreement, which he hopes will become the framework for countries to tackle the climate issue long beyond the end of his presidency in early 2017.

But Republicans have tried to undermine the president by sowing uncertainty about whether the U.S. will make good on its promises. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and other GOP leaders have warned other countries not to trust any deal Obama may strike; other GOP allies are working to nullify Obama's emissions-cutting steps at home."

The problem with "global warming" is that it was thought up by a Bunco artist named Al Gore. Less then 7% of Americans see it as a threat. That is NOT going to harm us a bit.

LMAO Al Gore thought up global warming? It's too funny.

You are so so full of shit:


Scientific opinion on climate change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The scientific consensus is that the Earth's climate system is unequivocally warming, and that it is extremely likely (meaning, of at least 95% probability or higher) that humans are causing most of it through activities that increase concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, such as deforestation and burning fossil fuels. In addition, it is likely that some potential further greenhouse gas warming has been offset by increased aerosols.[2][3][4][5]

National and international science academies and scientific societies have assessed current scientific opinion on global warming. These assessments are generally consistent with the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report summarized:

I'm not questioning climate change, stupid. I'm questioning the claim by the poster I quoted that Al Gore "thought it up." Good God.

Sorry if I misunderstood......I'm old. Most people my age(81) don't even know how to use a computer. I made my living supervising operations in mainframe computing centers...retired 22 years ago.

 

[Freewill]

Obama Trip To The 'Global Warming' Summit Emits More CO2 Than Driving 72 Cars For A Year...
Conference will produce '300,000 TONS'...
China to launch carbon-tracking satellites into space...
Beijing chokes under cloud of poisonous smog...
Florida sets record of 10 years without major hurricane...
POPE: World headed toward 'suicide' if no agreement...
Why Paris Deal Is Meaningless...
Leaders pledge billions to curb emissions...
Talks tinged by anxiety amid outpouring of promises...

Its interesting how RW logic works.

Obama burned a bunch of fossil fuels flying somewhere - therefore, global warming is a lie.

That's some solid fucking logic there. Its a wonder you've been unable to get it published.

I realize he has no other way to really travel but don't you find it just a little hypocritical to use so much energy and produce so much CO2 to attend a meeting whose goal is to limit both?

 

[Campbell]

Obama Trip To The 'Global Warming' Summit Emits More CO2 Than Driving 72 Cars For A Year...
Conference will produce '300,000 TONS'...
China to launch carbon-tracking satellites into space...
Beijing chokes under cloud of poisonous smog...
Florida sets record of 10 years without major hurricane...
POPE: World headed toward 'suicide' if no agreement...
Why Paris Deal Is Meaningless...
Leaders pledge billions to curb emissions...
Talks tinged by anxiety amid outpouring of promises...

Its interesting how RW logic works.

Obama burned a bunch of fossil fuels flying somewhere - therefore, global warming is a lie.

That's some solid fucking logic there. Its a wonder you've been unable to get it published.

I realize he has no other way to really travel but don't you find it just a little hypocritical to use so much energy and produce so much CO2 to attend a meeting whose goal is to limit both?

That's the most poor façade I've ever seen. Even ministers have to use public modes of transportation to make their schedules. I'm just about fed up with the right wing bullshit for which there seems to be no end. Al Gore did nothing except to point out to mankind that in the long run they are fucking themselves. Do you want to leave a planet on which your children and family can breathe or not?