Relativity and climate science

mamooth

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2012
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Indianapolis, Indiana
Everything old is new again. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Einstein faced the same kind of opposition that climate scientists face now.

First, from a review of a 1920 German book on the topic ...

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1111/1111.2181.pdf
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According to Wazeck, the successes of relativity marginalized those that had different ideas: academics of a different opinion, such as Gehrcke and Lenard, would increasingly find themselves on the margins of their profession, as their candidates for positions would be more easily overlooked and their institutional desires would be less likely to be fulfilled. Welträtsellöser, likewise, would find it ever more difficult to get their ideas published in respected journals, or be awarded speaking time at scientific meetings. Modern science, most prominently represented by Einstein's mathematical physics, had sidelined them. Thus, anti-relativists were only clamoring to the defense of their own ideas and scientific stature; to them, Einstein was the assailant.

Relativity threatened the "knowledge systems" of its opponents. These were quite varied, ranging from mechanical world pictures to occultist perspectives, but anti-relativists were quick to suspend their differences of opinion: facing a common enemy, they realized that they stood stronger, and their opposition would be more credible, when they stood together. Anti-relativists consequently built up networks to act against Einstein's theory in concert. This led to some success. For instance, the clamor about the theory in Germany contributed to the Nobel committee's delay in awarding its 1921 prize to Einstein, and to the particular choice of subject for which he finally did receive it: his account of the photoelectric effect, instead of the controversial theory of relativity.
---

And concerning the "citizen scientist" contingent ...

Who Were Einstein's Opponents?
---
Non-academic researchers like Patschke announced public lectures, submitted essays, and tried to establish contact with Einstein and other leading scholars in order to warn them — as well-intentioned colleagues — of the falsehood of the theory of relativity and to convince them of the veracity of their own scientific worldviews. Patschke and others like him were often simply ignored; in other instances, it was patiently explained how their criticisms of the theory of relativity had completely missed the mark. But because their observations were anchored in specific worldviews, Patschke and his associates were immune to this type of criticism. Einstein's opponents were simply not prepared to question their own worldviews and instead sought alternative explanations for why their objections were disregarded by the academics. With time, many turned to conspiracy to account for their marginal status: plots favoring Einstein, so they imagined, explained his success and their marginalization. Having reached this point, any sort of resolution of the controversy had become impossible.
---
 
Everything old is new again. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Einstein faced the same kind of opposition that climate scientists face now.

First, from a review of a 1920 German book on the topic ...

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1111/1111.2181.pdf
---
According to Wazeck, the successes of relativity marginalized those that had different ideas: academics of a different opinion, such as Gehrcke and Lenard, would increasingly find themselves on the margins of their profession, as their candidates for positions would be more easily overlooked and their institutional desires would be less likely to be fulfilled. Welträtsellöser, likewise, would find it ever more difficult to get their ideas published in respected journals, or be awarded speaking time at scientific meetings. Modern science, most prominently represented by Einstein's mathematical physics, had sidelined them. Thus, anti-relativists were only clamoring to the defense of their own ideas and scientific stature; to them, Einstein was the assailant.

Relativity threatened the "knowledge systems" of its opponents. These were quite varied, ranging from mechanical world pictures to occultist perspectives, but anti-relativists were quick to suspend their differences of opinion: facing a common enemy, they realized that they stood stronger, and their opposition would be more credible, when they stood together. Anti-relativists consequently built up networks to act against Einstein's theory in concert. This led to some success. For instance, the clamor about the theory in Germany contributed to the Nobel committee's delay in awarding its 1921 prize to Einstein, and to the particular choice of subject for which he finally did receive it: his account of the photoelectric effect, instead of the controversial theory of relativity.
---

And concerning the "citizen scientist" contingent ...

Who Were Einstein's Opponents?
---
Non-academic researchers like Patschke announced public lectures, submitted essays, and tried to establish contact with Einstein and other leading scholars in order to warn them — as well-intentioned colleagues — of the falsehood of the theory of relativity and to convince them of the veracity of their own scientific worldviews. Patschke and others like him were often simply ignored; in other instances, it was patiently explained how their criticisms of the theory of relativity had completely missed the mark. But because their observations were anchored in specific worldviews, Patschke and his associates were immune to this type of criticism. Einstein's opponents were simply not prepared to question their own worldviews and instead sought alternative explanations for why their objections were disregarded by the academics. With time, many turned to conspiracy to account for their marginal status: plots favoring Einstein, so they imagined, explained his success and their marginalization. Having reached this point, any sort of resolution of the controversy had become impossible.
---

Einstein faced the same kind of opposition that climate scientists face now.

One important difference is that Relativity did not get government backing to force us to waste trillions in tax dollars.
 
Everything old is new again. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Einstein faced the same kind of opposition that climate scientists face now.

First, from a review of a 1920 German book on the topic ...

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1111/1111.2181.pdf
---
According to Wazeck, the successes of relativity marginalized those that had different ideas: academics of a different opinion, such as Gehrcke and Lenard, would increasingly find themselves on the margins of their profession, as their candidates for positions would be more easily overlooked and their institutional desires would be less likely to be fulfilled. Welträtsellöser, likewise, would find it ever more difficult to get their ideas published in respected journals, or be awarded speaking time at scientific meetings. Modern science, most prominently represented by Einstein's mathematical physics, had sidelined them. Thus, anti-relativists were only clamoring to the defense of their own ideas and scientific stature; to them, Einstein was the assailant.

Relativity threatened the "knowledge systems" of its opponents. These were quite varied, ranging from mechanical world pictures to occultist perspectives, but anti-relativists were quick to suspend their differences of opinion: facing a common enemy, they realized that they stood stronger, and their opposition would be more credible, when they stood together. Anti-relativists consequently built up networks to act against Einstein's theory in concert. This led to some success. For instance, the clamor about the theory in Germany contributed to the Nobel committee's delay in awarding its 1921 prize to Einstein, and to the particular choice of subject for which he finally did receive it: his account of the photoelectric effect, instead of the controversial theory of relativity.
---

And concerning the "citizen scientist" contingent ...

Who Were Einstein's Opponents?
---
Non-academic researchers like Patschke announced public lectures, submitted essays, and tried to establish contact with Einstein and other leading scholars in order to warn them — as well-intentioned colleagues — of the falsehood of the theory of relativity and to convince them of the veracity of their own scientific worldviews. Patschke and others like him were often simply ignored; in other instances, it was patiently explained how their criticisms of the theory of relativity had completely missed the mark. But because their observations were anchored in specific worldviews, Patschke and his associates were immune to this type of criticism. Einstein's opponents were simply not prepared to question their own worldviews and instead sought alternative explanations for why their objections were disregarded by the academics. With time, many turned to conspiracy to account for their marginal status: plots favoring Einstein, so they imagined, explained his success and their marginalization. Having reached this point, any sort of resolution of the controversy had become impossible.
---

Relativity has passed every experiment it's been subjected to. What's AGW track record?
 
Yeah, I think of all the rigorous testing that Relativity has been subject to for 100 years and I can see how Mann's Tree Rings are suffering the same fate
 
Everything old is new again. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Einstein faced the same kind of opposition that climate scientists face now.

First, from a review of a 1920 German book on the topic ...

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1111/1111.2181.pdf
---
According to Wazeck, the successes of relativity marginalized those that had different ideas: academics of a different opinion, such as Gehrcke and Lenard, would increasingly find themselves on the margins of their profession, as their candidates for positions would be more easily overlooked and their institutional desires would be less likely to be fulfilled. Welträtsellöser, likewise, would find it ever more difficult to get their ideas published in respected journals, or be awarded speaking time at scientific meetings. Modern science, most prominently represented by Einstein's mathematical physics, had sidelined them. Thus, anti-relativists were only clamoring to the defense of their own ideas and scientific stature; to them, Einstein was the assailant.

Relativity threatened the "knowledge systems" of its opponents. These were quite varied, ranging from mechanical world pictures to occultist perspectives, but anti-relativists were quick to suspend their differences of opinion: facing a common enemy, they realized that they stood stronger, and their opposition would be more credible, when they stood together. Anti-relativists consequently built up networks to act against Einstein's theory in concert. This led to some success. For instance, the clamor about the theory in Germany contributed to the Nobel committee's delay in awarding its 1921 prize to Einstein, and to the particular choice of subject for which he finally did receive it: his account of the photoelectric effect, instead of the controversial theory of relativity.
---

And concerning the "citizen scientist" contingent ...

Who Were Einstein's Opponents?
---
Non-academic researchers like Patschke announced public lectures, submitted essays, and tried to establish contact with Einstein and other leading scholars in order to warn them — as well-intentioned colleagues — of the falsehood of the theory of relativity and to convince them of the veracity of their own scientific worldviews. Patschke and others like him were often simply ignored; in other instances, it was patiently explained how their criticisms of the theory of relativity had completely missed the mark. But because their observations were anchored in specific worldviews, Patschke and his associates were immune to this type of criticism. Einstein's opponents were simply not prepared to question their own worldviews and instead sought alternative explanations for why their objections were disregarded by the academics. With time, many turned to conspiracy to account for their marginal status: plots favoring Einstein, so they imagined, explained his success and their marginalization. Having reached this point, any sort of resolution of the controversy had become impossible.
---

Astounding parallels.
 
Relativity has passed every experiment it's been subjected to. What's AGW track record?

Has it ever been subjected to an actual experiment?

This is the answer I get every time I ask them to show me an Experiment

mann_treering.jpg
 
Michio Kaku said that the standard for physics is so high that had Relativity failed even one experiment it would have had to have been abandoned as a theory.

He defriended me on Facebook when I asked if AGW should be subject to the same standard
 
Everything old is new again. The more things change, the more they stay the same. Einstein faced the same kind of opposition that climate scientists face now.

First, from a review of a 1920 German book on the topic ...

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1111/1111.2181.pdf
---
According to Wazeck, the successes of relativity marginalized those that had different ideas: academics of a different opinion, such as Gehrcke and Lenard, would increasingly find themselves on the margins of their profession, as their candidates for positions would be more easily overlooked and their institutional desires would be less likely to be fulfilled. Welträtsellöser, likewise, would find it ever more difficult to get their ideas published in respected journals, or be awarded speaking time at scientific meetings. Modern science, most prominently represented by Einstein's mathematical physics, had sidelined them. Thus, anti-relativists were only clamoring to the defense of their own ideas and scientific stature; to them, Einstein was the assailant.

Relativity threatened the "knowledge systems" of its opponents. These were quite varied, ranging from mechanical world pictures to occultist perspectives, but anti-relativists were quick to suspend their differences of opinion: facing a common enemy, they realized that they stood stronger, and their opposition would be more credible, when they stood together. Anti-relativists consequently built up networks to act against Einstein's theory in concert. This led to some success. For instance, the clamor about the theory in Germany contributed to the Nobel committee's delay in awarding its 1921 prize to Einstein, and to the particular choice of subject for which he finally did receive it: his account of the photoelectric effect, instead of the controversial theory of relativity.
---

And concerning the "citizen scientist" contingent ...

Who Were Einstein's Opponents?
---
Non-academic researchers like Patschke announced public lectures, submitted essays, and tried to establish contact with Einstein and other leading scholars in order to warn them — as well-intentioned colleagues — of the falsehood of the theory of relativity and to convince them of the veracity of their own scientific worldviews. Patschke and others like him were often simply ignored; in other instances, it was patiently explained how their criticisms of the theory of relativity had completely missed the mark. But because their observations were anchored in specific worldviews, Patschke and his associates were immune to this type of criticism. Einstein's opponents were simply not prepared to question their own worldviews and instead sought alternative explanations for why their objections were disregarded by the academics. With time, many turned to conspiracy to account for their marginal status: plots favoring Einstein, so they imagined, explained his success and their marginalization. Having reached this point, any sort of resolution of the controversy had become impossible.
---






The problem with your comparison is Einsteins theory was MEASURABLE and TESTABLE. Two characteristics that AGW "theory" lack.
 
The cranks were also screaming "But you haven't tested it!" concerning Einstein.

They looked just as dumb back then.

Ahh the poor thing didn't read anything in between the op and her last post

TM used to do that all the time but at least she was funny
 
There is a more direct connection.

Most of the denialists here embrace the "There's no backradiation!" absurdity.

Relativity says that information may not be transmitted faster-than-light. Yet the "no backradiation" theory says that photons heading for a warmer surface instantly know they're supposed to vanish.

Hence, the "no backradiation!" theory violates relativity, making AGW denialists also relativity denialists.
 
There is a more direct connection.

Most of the denialists here embrace the "There's no backradiation!" absurdity.

Relativity says that information may not be transmitted faster-than-light. Yet the "no backradiation" theory says that photons heading for a warmer surface instantly know they're supposed to vanish.

Hence, the "no backradiation!" theory violates relativity, making AGW denialists also relativity denialists.

No relativativity REQUIRED for back-radiation. Just fields and waves theory from the 19th century. But you are correct.. It's silly to deny atmos physics.. Even if you don't need Einstein..
 
There is a more direct connection.

Most of the denialists here embrace the "There's no backradiation!" absurdity.

Relativity says that information may not be transmitted faster-than-light. Yet the "no backradiation" theory says that photons heading for a warmer surface instantly know they're supposed to vanish.

Hence, the "no backradiation!" theory violates relativity, making AGW denialists also relativity denialists.

I'll put on my Devil's Advocate hat here.

photons that carry force in electric or magnetic fields know that they are supposed to vanish if they cannot find a suitable target to act upon. while I believe radiative and reactive photons are different (eg. attractive/repulsive), I do not think we can completely rule out every mechanism by which radiative photons could 'test the waters'.

that said, I think radiative photons are created to shed energy rather than to transfer it, and therefore do not need a 'partner', or knowledge of its condition.
 
There is a more direct connection.

Most of the denialists here embrace the "There's no backradiation!" absurdity.

Relativity says that information may not be transmitted faster-than-light. Yet the "no backradiation" theory says that photons heading for a warmer surface instantly know they're supposed to vanish.

Hence, the "no backradiation!" theory violates relativity, making AGW denialists also relativity denialists.

For the life of me I can't understand thy this topic makes all you warmers and lukewarmers so stupid. Why do you imagine that photons must know that they are to vanish or that they vanish at all. The argument that I put forward is that they don't radiate in the direction of less entropy in the first place.

Every observation ever made is of energy moving towards more entropy. Do you think air molecules inside a leaking tire must know that the pressure outside the tire is lower and that they should move out through the leak? What about when the pressure inside equalizes with the outside? Do you think they must somehow know this has happened and that now the ones left shouldn't try to escape?

Hook a 12 volt battery to a wire and a 6 volt battery to the other end and then run a wire from the 6 volt battery to ground. Do you think those electrons in the 6 volt battery must know that they can't flow upstream to the 12 volt battery Or do you think that maybe some of them try and vanish? Or do you think some choice is involved in the electrons in the 6 volt battery moving towards the 12 volt battery or to ground? Or do you think that some choice or intelligence is in loved in eventually sending them all to ground?

Every observation ever made is of energy moving towards more entropy. No observation has ever been made of energy spontaneously moving towards less entropy. No one questions any of these energy movements or suggests that they are the result of intelligent choice or decision making on the part of the energy in question.

Why then in the.case of photons which are theoretical and remain unobserved do you ascribe intelligence when they simply obey the laws of physics or believe that the laws of physics are somehow different for them than for every other energy transfer ever observed?
 
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There is a more direct connection.

Most of the denialists here embrace the "There's no backradiation!" absurdity.

Relativity says that information may not be transmitted faster-than-light. Yet the "no backradiation" theory says that photons heading for a warmer surface instantly know they're supposed to vanish.

Hence, the "no backradiation!" theory violates relativity, making AGW denialists also relativity denialists.

For the life of me I can't understand thy this topic makes all you warmers and lukewarmers so stupid. Why do you imagine that photons must know that they are to vanish or that they vanish at all. The argument that I put forward is that they don't radiate in the direction of less entropy in the first place.

Every observation ever made is of energy moving towards more entropy. Do you think air molecules inside a leaking tire must know that the pressure outside the tire is lower and that they should move out through the leak? What about when the pressure inside equalizes with the outside? Do you think they must somehow know this has happened and that now the ones left shouldn't try to escape?

Hook a 12 volt battery to a wire and a 6 volt battery to the other end and then run a wire from the 6 volt battery to ground. Do you think those electrons in the 6 volt battery must know that they can't flow upstream to the 12 volt battery Or do you think that maybe some of them try and vanish? Or do you think some choice is involved in the electrons in the 6 volt battery moving towards the 12 volt battery or to ground? Or do you think that some choice or intelligence is in loved in eventually sending them all to ground?

Every observation ever made is of energy moving towards more entropy. No observation has ever been made of energy spontaneously moving towards less entropy. No one questions any of these energy movements or suggests that they are the result of intelligent choice or decision making on the part of the energy in question.

Why then in the.case of photons which are theoretical and remain unobserved do you ascribe intelligence when they simply obey the laws of physics or believe that the laws of physics are somehow different for them than for every other energy transfer ever observed?

Why do you imagine that photons must know that they are to vanish or that they vanish at all.

Because we know that objects above absolute zero radiate constantly.

The argument that I put forward is that they don't radiate in the direction of less entropy in the first place.

Yes, we're aware of your smart photon argument.
 

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