Reid: in Conference We Win---but America LOSES

[JimBowie1958]

Reid on Immigration Reform: 'If We Go to Conference, We Will Win'

Ignoring the question of why would a political party like the GOP pass a bill that would make them permanent minorities and eventually go into extinction, my question is what do conservatives plan to do about it?

The GOP will have betrayed this nation and its people in about as dramatic a way as plausible.

Will conservatives stay GOP if the Immigration Amnesty Bill passes into law?

 

[tinydancer]

New party. It's the only way to go.

And as a seasoned veteran of "screw the progressives in my so called conservative party and throw the progressive I want to suck up to the liberals just so I can go on Sunday talk shows or as Lindsey Graham put it so well "I want to stay relevant in Washington" up here, you are wasting valuable time not forming a new conservative party.

*sigh*

You have elections on the horizon. 2014 is a make or break year but you can't sell your soul to put in a person under an R who will continually vote D.

 

[tinydancer]

I'm about to enter the ring up here again where I now live in Manitoba. I want them to drop the Progressive in Progressive Conservative Party.

It's why they lose to the NDP all the time. They stand for nothing. I can't figure why conservatives in the US have stuck with the inside the beltway Rs for as long as you have.

A poster I really respect chided me saying "I'll stay in the party and change it from the inside".

That boat won't float. Sometimes something is just so FUBAR'd you have to blow it out of the water and build another ship.

 

[Geaux4it]

Build the fence

Next

-Geaux

 

[JoeB131]

Reid on Immigration Reform: 'If We Go to Conference, We Will Win'

Ignoring the question of why would a political party like the GOP pass a bill that would make them permanent minorities and eventually go into extinction, my question is what do conservatives plan to do about it?

The GOP will have betrayed this nation and its people in about as dramatic a way as plausible.

Will conservatives stay GOP if the Immigration Amnesty Bill passes into law?

Maybe instead of trying to keep people of color from voting, the GOP should give them reasons to vote for them.

You know, before White people finally smarten up and realize that if you ain't rich, the GOP ain't doing jack shit for you.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Not a new Party, we'll need a new country

 

[JoeB131]

Build the fence

Next

-Geaux

God, are you stupid.

Fences? That's your answer.

Fences can be climbed over, cut through and tunneled under.

Also, most illegals don't climb under a fence. Most illegals come here legally, and then overstay their Visas.

here's the real way to limit illegal immigration. Go after the employers who hire them.

But that would mean going after the rich assholes who really run things in the GOP. You didn't think you bible thumpers and gun nuts were really the ones in charge, did you?

 

[Sallow]

The big American myth is that most immigrants came here "legally".

 

[candycorn]

Build the fence

Next

-Geaux

God, are you stupid.

Fences? That's your answer.

Fences can be climbed over, cut through and tunneled under.

Also, most illegals don't climb under a fence. Most illegals come here legally, and then overstay their Visas.

here's the real way to limit illegal immigration. Go after the employers who hire them.

But that would mean going after the rich assholes who really run things in the GOP. You didn't think you bible thumpers and gun nuts were really the ones in charge, did you?

I think you need to bi-sect the issues here;

One is strictly immigration. Yes, the #1 "contributor" to the illegal immigration problem is that we have people who over-stay their visas.

The other is immigration and security. If you have a fence around your property and you don't have kids you're trying to keep from wandering into the street, why do you have the fence? Security. Most houses are never broken into--fence or not yet people buy fences to act as both a deterrent and to install a physical barrier. We cannot know what is coming across our border if we have nobody there to stop it. I say go further; army troops patrolling the border and replacing the fences we have in place with a system of barriers that will keep out most insects much less illegal immigrants (one such model is below--I believe it is on the right track but a bit too robust).

You're right about the ultimate cause of illegal immigration. I don't think it is strictly rich republicans buying their labor. Who cares? Enforce the law.

 

[Geaux4it]

Build the fence

Next

-Geaux

God, are you stupid.

Fences? That's your answer.

Fences can be climbed over, cut through and tunneled under.

Also, most illegals don't climb under a fence. Most illegals come here legally, and then overstay their Visas.

here's the real way to limit illegal immigration. Go after the employers who hire them.

But that would mean going after the rich assholes who really run things in the GOP. You didn't think you bible thumpers and gun nuts were really the ones in charge, did you?

I think you need to bi-sect the issues here;

One is strictly immigration. Yes, the #1 "contributor" to the illegal immigration problem is that we have people who over-stay their visas.

The other is immigration and security. If you have a fence around your property and you don't have kids you're trying to keep from wandering into the street, why do you have the fence? Security. Most houses are never broken into--fence or not yet people buy fences to act as both a deterrent and to install a physical barrier. We cannot know what is coming across our border if we have nobody there to stop it. I say go further; army troops patrolling the border and replacing the fences we have in place with a system of barriers that will keep out most insects much less illegal immigrants (one such model is below--I believe it is on the right track but a bit too robust).

You're right about the ultimate cause of illegal immigration. I don't think it is strictly rich republicans buying their labor. Who cares? Enforce the law.

Enforce the law indeed

Build the fence

-Geaux

 

[candycorn]

God, are you stupid.

Fences? That's your answer.

Fences can be climbed over, cut through and tunneled under.

Also, most illegals don't climb under a fence. Most illegals come here legally, and then overstay their Visas.

here's the real way to limit illegal immigration. Go after the employers who hire them.

But that would mean going after the rich assholes who really run things in the GOP. You didn't think you bible thumpers and gun nuts were really the ones in charge, did you?

I think you need to bi-sect the issues here;

One is strictly immigration. Yes, the #1 "contributor" to the illegal immigration problem is that we have people who over-stay their visas.

The other is immigration and security. If you have a fence around your property and you don't have kids you're trying to keep from wandering into the street, why do you have the fence? Security. Most houses are never broken into--fence or not yet people buy fences to act as both a deterrent and to install a physical barrier. We cannot know what is coming across our border if we have nobody there to stop it. I say go further; army troops patrolling the border and replacing the fences we have in place with a system of barriers that will keep out most insects much less illegal immigrants (one such model is below--I believe it is on the right track but a bit too robust).

You're right about the ultimate cause of illegal immigration. I don't think it is strictly rich republicans buying their labor. Who cares? Enforce the law.

Enforce the law indeed

Build the fence

-Geaux

The idea that just because the 11,000,000 immigrants here are apparently benign characters for the most part doesn't mean that the one crossing right now, or next week, won't have devious intent or would be carrying a suitcase full of anthrax. Likely not but lets do what common sense tells us to do; secure the border.

After that, I probably show my liberalism by stating that I think anyone who is here after we get that fence built should be given citizenship if they have a clean record. Give them an SSN and have them start paying taxes. If those who are doing it the "right way" by applying, taking classes, etc are upset...sorry. Practical reality sometimes trumps what you're able to do in the interest of fairness.

 

[Geaux4it]

Agreed

Not securing the border first before amnesty is akin to giving you morphine because we can't stop the cancer

-Geaux

 

[The T]

Not a new Party, we'll need a new country

Washington warned us to beware of parties...this is an excerpt of his Farewell address from 1796:

..."All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests.

However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.

Towards the preservation of your government, and the permanency of your present happy state, it is requisite, not only that you steadily discountenance irregular oppositions to its acknowledged authority, but also that you resist with care the spirit of innovation upon its principles, however specious the pretexts. One method of assault may be to effect, in the forms of the Constitution, alterations which will impair the energy of the system, and thus to undermine what cannot be directly overthrown. In all the changes to which you may be invited, remember that time and habit are at least as necessary to fix the true character of governments as of other human institutions; that experience is the surest standard by which to test the real tendency of the existing constitution of a country; that facility in changes, upon the credit of mere hypothesis and opinion, exposes to perpetual change, from the endless variety of hypothesis and opinion; and remember, especially, that for the efficient management of your common interests, in a country so extensive as ours, a government of as much vigor as is consistent with the perfect security of liberty is indispensable. Liberty itself will find in such a government, with powers properly distributed and adjusted, its surest guardian. It is, indeed, little else than a name, where the government is too feeble to withstand the enterprises of faction, to confine each member of the society within the limits prescribed by the laws, and to maintain all in the secure and tranquil enjoyment of the rights of person and property.

I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty..."

Took awhile, but we are there.

SOURCE

 

[The T]

Sorry OP...I cannot vote in your poll, options are missing.

 

[JimBowie1958]

The big American myth is that most immigrants came here "legally".

Bullshit.

Prior to 1950 almost ALL immigrants came here in accordance with US laws.

Sallow, you are turning into just another fucking liar.

What a shame.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sorry OP...I cannot vote in your poll, options are missing.

Such as?

 

[JimBowie1958]

The idea that just because the 11,000,000 immigrants here are apparently benign characters for the most part doesn't mean that the one crossing right now, or next week, won't have devious intent or would be carrying a suitcase full of anthrax. Likely not but lets do what common sense tells us to do; secure the border.

After that, I probably show my liberalism by stating that I think anyone who is here after we get that fence built should be given citizenship if they have a clean record. Give them an SSN and have them start paying taxes.

Here I disagree with you. I would allow citizenship for people here who are immediate relatives of American citizens/anchor babies so we don't break up families of other-wise law abiding though illegal citizens. Some people are just desperate, so kicking them out after years of lawful labor and community involvement is too harsh for the crime, IMO.

But to start with this position that everyone here that has no record should get citizenship is simply too disrespectful of our immigration laws and all the trouble and costs the legal immigrants go through to obey and respect our laws.

If those who are doing it the "right way" by applying, taking classes, etc are upset...sorry. Practical reality sometimes trumps what you're able to do in the interest of fairness.

But not in this case. If we start severely fining businesses that hire illegals and confiscating their assets under asset forfeiture laws, the illegals will self deport.

 

[The T]

Sorry OP...I cannot vote in your poll, options are missing.

Such as?

My friend? Did you read my posts regarding Washington's warning about parties and vindictiveness and where it will lead?

I support NO party is the point, but rather the Individual and sovereignty OF the individual, and the States. (Neither is being defended by either party). Good thread though.

~T

 

[JimBowie1958]

Sorry OP...I cannot vote in your poll, options are missing.

Such as?

My friend? Did you read my posts regarding Washington's warning about parties and vindictiveness and where it will lead?

I support NO party is the point, but rather the Individual and sovereignty OF the individual, and the States. (Neither is being defended by either party). Good thread though.

~T

Thanks for the compliment, but I don't see how to effectively advance an groups interests if not in a party.

That is how the system is and sitting it out seems counter-productive.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I'm about to enter the ring up here again where I now live in Manitoba. I want them to drop the Progressive in Progressive Conservative Party.

It's why they lose to the NDP all the time. They stand for nothing. I can't figure why conservatives in the US have stuck with the inside the beltway Rs for as long as you have.

A poster I really respect chided me saying "I'll stay in the party and change it from the inside".

That boat won't float. Sometimes something is just so FUBAR'd you have to blow it out of the water and build another ship.

The Old Guard GOP establishment in the US has fried the party.
These are the old 'big tent' reach across the aisle worry about being liked instead of doing the work they were sent to do by the people who want true conservatism in government.
These people( John Mc Cain for example) must be voted out of office.