Debate Now Reflections Post-Charlottesville

Discussion in 'Debate Now - Structured Discussion Forum' started by usmbguest5318, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    In the wake of the "carrying on" in Charlottesville, we all heard the plangent pronouncements and pleas about preserving history. Some of us may have heard people support that notion using the argument that most Southerners weren't even slaveholders (true), all the while ignoring the fact that most Antebellum Southerner weren't slaveowners because they couldn't be, not because they were unwilling to be or because anathema to them was the notion of profiting from slave ownership. Then as now, if one could the be sole proprietor of a business that afforded one the equivalent of ~$60M net worth, one would. Moreover, the simple fact is that among Confederate Southerners, there was neither a massive plurality of them nor a majority of them who were also Abolitionists or who vehemently and vociferously rallied against oppressing blacks.

    But the problem isn't what 19th century or even early 20th century Confederates and their sympathizers did or said regarding blacks' status. The problem is the very existence today of nitwits and palterers who spew that specious line of bunkum about "preserving history and culture" thinking that the rest of us be imperspicacious enough to think it has merit. Truth be told, but for the fact that there are so many clowns who'll utter that line, people of material mental mien wouldn't dignify it with a response.

    To wit, riddle me this.
    • If it's so that the heritage and culture of common Confederate citizens who weren't slaveholders is indeed what the myriad statues and commemorations of dead slave owners, military and political leaders of the Confederacy and profiteers in the perpetuation of black subjugation be about, why do our supposedly egalitarian contemporaries not advocate for replacing/renaming statues of Robert E. Lee, streets named for Jeff Davis, schools named for Stonewall Jackson, a military base named for Braxton Bragg, etc. and in their places erecting sculptures of everyday Antebellum Southerners doing the things that those non-slaveholding men women did?
    • Why do we not see advocacy for bridges, streets, schools and buildings named for those non-slave owners and/or groups of them?
      • Mississippi Abolitionists Memorial Parkway
      • Antebellum Homemakers Senior High
      • Birmingham Bricklayers Bridge
      • The Stonemason County Courthouse
      • The Dairymaid Administrative Building
      • Blacksmith Blvd., Harness-maker Hwy, etc.
    • Why do we see no push to memorialize the Antebellum and Confederate migrant worker, indentured servant, self-sustaining farmer who had no slaves, shipwrights who employed only paid workers, carpenters, etc?
    • Why do we not see and hear advocates for preserving Southern history hollering for exchanging the existing honoraria for alternative honoraria calling attention to people and groups who had no blatantly inextricable ties to the perpetuation of the "curious institution?"
    That we don't all widely know the names of those millions of everyday Confederates -- people who, in spite of their acquiescence to if not explicit approbation of slavery and oppression of non-whites, demonstrated the industriousness and fortitude that is very much something to be proud -- is no reason why we cannot enshrine them and the basic strengths of mind and body they daily used to "make it" in the word in which they found themselves.

    To me, the answer is adamantinely clear. Like those long dead racists, today's defenders of the primacy of place enjoyed by Lee, Davis, Bragg, Pickett, et al have as their intention preserving the memory of the opprobrious view of humanity that, in the form of the Civil War, Black Codes, "separate but equal," etc., beset the U.S. and has ever since sundered, subverted and shook the serenity each of us citizens seeks in these supposedly-united states. Should we forget about the Confederacy? Of course not, but our collective memory of it and its perpetrators belongs in history books, not emblazoned on architraves and placed on pedestals before our most sacred and important institutions.

    There is plenty that is both honorable, culturally relevant, interesting and unifying about the contributions of the common, non-slaveowing Confederate seamstress, butcher, baker and cabinetmaker. If nothing else, it's that as is often said, but too infrequently commemorated, this country and its heritage and culture derives every bit as much from the labors of common folk as it does from the likes of world renowned inventors, financiers and industrialists.

    To wit, in the U.S. we have a long, rich and tasty tradition built up around Southern cooking, ranging from refined to rustic. And, of course, the heritage, culture and enjoyment of Southern cooking was and is shared by the oppressed and the oppressors alike. I'd even hazard that Southern cooking is one thing that is 100% American and that has been and remains welcomed and appreciated the world over. Indeed, when you think about it, of all the things that we Americans do, lo all of humanity, the one thing that unites us is food. The Confederacy and what it stood for deserves the nullification and interposition attendant to removing statues of them. Accordingly, I think we'd do ourselves some good by renaming streets to commemorate shirmp-'n'-grits, collard greens, cornbread, chicken and dumplings, fried okra, peanuts, jambalaya and gumbo, pecan pie, squirrel stew (aka Brunswick stew), biscuits and gravy, etc. and the Southern men and women who invented, served, perfected and made them famous.



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  2. Tank
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    I'm all for it, but will it help blacks take care of their children and commit less crime?
     
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  3. Dale Smith
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    Dale Smith Gold Member

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    When do you think libruls will start insisting that Albert Pike's statute in Washington, D.C will be removed?????
     
  4. yiostheoy
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    yiostheoy Gold Member

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    A fairly rambling rant.

    If you are referring to the riots between the anti black far right and the Negro far left, this was simply just a show of force between both sides.

    Both sides exist, that's for sure.

    And they don't like each other. That's for sure too.

    The news on this was entertaining. That's all.
     
  5. OldLady
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    OldLady Platinum Member

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    You're right about the food thing--it does unite us more than anything else, regardless of which cultures we are talking about. I LOL Antebellum Homemakers Senior High etc.

    I think we'll get shut of the Civil War eventually. Removing statues of the confederate leaders is a bold move but probably wise. Personally, I have no say in the matter, since there aren't any confederate war hero statues around here and if there were I'd give them the same lack of attention I do any guy-on-a-horse statues. At first, I was very hesitant about removing our history, but the more dialogue there has been, the more I've realized that this is not about history--it is still very real and present to many people.

    To me, a northerner born and bred, the war ended in 1865. To some people, it's never actually been concluded. Taking those statues to the museums is probably a good step to finally end the Civil War.
     
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  6. Tank
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    I agree, hopefully these people will finally get over slavery
     
  7. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    I wasn't. Were I, I would have mentioned them directly.
     
  8. usmbguest5318
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    usmbguest5318 Gold Member

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    At the end of the day, when I see a Confederate flag willfully displayed by someone -- on a pole, on their ass, chest or lapel, etc. -- what I know is that they cannot be doing so out of patriotism for the United States of America because the simple fact is that the Confederate States of America (CSA) was the nation that used that flag/symbol, and the CSA, not the USA, lost the Civil War. The CSA is no more, yet supposedly American citizens with willful pride display the CSA's imagery.

    Insofar as displaying "Stars and Bars" cannot be patriotic toward the USA, folks who display it must necessarily be expressing their affinity for something having to do with the CSA and what it stood for. Some will say it today represents "Southern pride." What the hell is "Southern pride" such that it is not, as slavery/racism are, inextricably linked to CSA/Confederacy
    • is distinguished from the pride of people hailing from or living in any other region of the U.S. and that is unique to the South?
    • necessitates associating it with the flag of the CSA/Confederacy?
    The South today isn’t what it was in the 1860s -- predominantly poor, rural, isolated. The modern South is the fastest growing region in the US; it is the most populated, nearly doubling the size of the West and Northeast combined with over 117 million residents. The South has a thriving economy, its GDP dwarfing both the Northeast and the West.

    There's plenty to be proud of. Why tarnish that pride by conflating it with, or risking that others construe one as doing so, the Confederacy?
     
  9. Picaro
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    Picaro BANNED

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    Actually it's northern Democratic Party propaganda hacks that revive it every election cycle, sniveling about southern states voting Republican and hoping to smear modern politicians with fake spam about the Civil War and racism, never mind most of the rioting and violence took place in northern cities, and even today it's places like New York City and Los Angeles that have been having the most violent race riots. In fact, after the election of Nixon northern state re-segregated their own school systems, the Civil Rights Acts being wildly popular as long as they only targeted a few cotton belt states, but as soon as Nixon took the Acts and oversaw enforcing them nationwide the riots haven't stopped to this day, so all the back patting Yankees do is just hilarious hypocrisy, based on removing the North's own history and lying to themselves to the extent of distortions and lying to school children in public school history books to maintain their own ludicrous fictions of 'fighting to end slavery n stuff' to justify crapping on modern southerners, for purely political fiction. Anybody who doubts this is the case can start with reading Hugh Davis Graham's The Civil Rights Era, for a complete and well sourced study of how the campaign began and how the racist radicals worked to destroy genuine reforms and equal rights, particularly making sure education in black schools drastically declined to the point it is at today, being largely useless and a joke. The whole fake outrage over statues is just rubbish 'issues' made up for lack of anything with substance to discuss, having trashed real progress with stupidity and corruption.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  10. waltky
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    waltky Wise ol' monkey Supporting Member

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    Granny says, "Dat's right...

    ... the more things change...

    ... the more dey remain the same."
     

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