Question for proponents of the Public Option Plan/Single Payer Plan.

[Tech_Esq]

I believe in capitalism too. I don't believe that healthcare--necessary for life itself--should have ever become a profit/loss business. This is the only country in which corporations try to profit from the health (or lack of) of its citizens.

People aren't buying cars here--they're trying to obtain life-sustaining care or treatment. And this should be doled out by profiteers? When did we enter this bizarro world???

Right, so people who build houses, (shelter, necessary for life) should not make profits.

Grocery stores and farmers sell and produce food (definitely need for sustaining life) no profits for them either. Probably no restaurants either -- by extension.

Is the point getting through? That's a silly argument.

No it isn't. Grocery stores are hardly big profit makers. Same for most builders. Why should the health insurance companies be making profits of 428$?? Find me a builder (which many in my family have been in for generations) who make that sort of profit.

Aside from that though, medical care is not handled like this in any other country. I don't think people should be able to profit because they condemned a person to death because of a "pre-existing" condition, that they won't pay for--although the person has been paying them hundreds of dollars each month for coverage.

Yes, IT IS, REALLY.

Grocery stores are not big business? You really want to go down that road? Check the profits on Kroger, Safeway, Wegman's, Balducci's etc.

Builders don't make profits like "that" whatever "that" is. My suspicion is you don't know what "that" is either, you've just decided that you don't like this particular "hated industry du jour" to make any money no matter what it is. So, check the profits on companies like Beazer, Centex, D.R. Horton, Lennar etc. and tell me they make no money (well, when the housing market isn't in collapse, that is).

I noticed you were smart enough not to mention farmers because you didn't want to talk about ADM and ConAgra. Nevertheless, all of those items are far more important to life than medical care or insurance. You need them daily to live. I haven't "needed" a doctor in decades. I've "wanted" one more recently, but "needed?" Not since Jimmy Carter was President.

Your second argument is a complete fallacy. You are arguing against the status quo and nobody supports the status quo including the insurance companies.

There are definite improvements that need to be made to the way health care coverage is provided in this country. Insurance companies cannot continue to not cover pre-existing conditions. Insurance needs to be less expensive. Markets for individuals, small businesses and other companies need to be opened across state lines allowing for expanded risk pools, increasing competitions and lowered prices. There is a role for government in creating a market framework where all health insurers can participate if they agree to basic rules about pre-existing conditions etc. Tort reform needs to be included to reduce unnecessary procedures and reduce medical costs (the English rule of torts needs to be implemented, loser pays).

So nobody is saying keep it like it is. But the solution is not replace it with a system we know will fail because it has failed everywhere it has been tried.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Bfgrn,

I think I wrote that two years ago. I have been saying that for years. I fully understand that we are in dire need of a reform of our health insurance. However, I am in disagreement with you in regards to letting the government take control of another social program. They have proven with every program they have undertaken to be unsuccessful.

I happen to like the idea of not having to deal with health insurance anymore. I would love the idea of never having to worry about my coverage again. The thought of having Uncle Sam provide coverage for me and take out a payroll deduction from my check seems great. Hassle free for life! Where do I sign up?

But in reality, the program will run at a deficit for ever. Uncle Sam will fiddle with the laws and in a few years it will be bankrupt and the only thing keeping it going will be red ink and IOU's.

Do I have a better solution? Sadly, no!

But for people to preach that this is the saving grace of the American people and let's face it, that is exactly what you guys are doing, is absolutely ludicrous.

We've been in a health care crisis for at least 10 years. Things have been out of hand and ignored by those in Washington for a long time. Now that Liberal Democrats have control they see an opportunity for a power grab and frankly, I see this as frightening.

This is clearly an attempt to socialize medicine. The powers that be in Washington have said as much. When they finish with medicine what will be next? What kind of freedoms will we have when they are done?

Immie

Here's something to really, REALLY think about Immie...WHAT do YOU want America to be, a representative republic or a privatized corporatocracy? The Republicans tell us our only problem in America is government. WHAT do they offer to replace it?? It seem perfectly CLEAR to me that their solution is to turn America over to corporations. We've seen Bills passed by Congress that were written BY corporate lawyers, lobbyists and special interest groups...we have draconian laws that severely punish the average breadwinner when he or she tangles with corporations (like credit card interest rate hikes that even the Mafia consider dishonest)

I understand and support sensible and healthy skepticism of government. Our founding fathers promoted THAT type of skepticism. But what you are saying in essence Immie is that our founding fathers FAILED... the form of governing they created needs to be scrapped...But let me ask you; WHAT representation do you have with corporations??? If you are not a board member of a controlling stock holder, you have NONE...

Ironically, the health insurance corporations of today are a PERFECT replica of the unfair and punitive corporate policies of the British East India Company...the REAL tea party was over corporations that were TOO powerful...

Here is a segment of an EXCELLENT speech by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. IMO, he hits it right on the head...

September 10, 2005

There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks. They maximize wealth. They create jobs. I own a corporation. They're a great thing, but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don't have the same aspirations for America that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and the best way for it to get profits is to use our campaign-finance system -- which is just a system of legalized bribery -- to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the marketplace to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the commons, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn't mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they're amoral, and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process. Let them do their thing, but they should not be participating in our political process, because a corporation cannot do something genuinely philanthropic. It's against the law in this country, because their shareholders can sue them for wasting corporate resources. They cannot legally do anything that will not increase their profit margins. That's the way the law works, and we have to recognize that and understand that they are toxic for the political process, and they have to be fenced off and kept out of the political process. This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders -- Republican and Democrat -- have been warning the American public against domination by corporate power.

This White House has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately, but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid, the domination of our government by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Speech, 9/10/05 > Press Room > Sierra Club

Bfgrn,

I would not say that they have failed. There is a quote, I think it was by Winston Churchill, but I cannot swear to it and I don't have time to google it, that says in essense that all Democracy will eventually fail when citizens realize how to work the system. I love my country. But, I hate to say it, that I am afraid our Democratic Republic may be in its dying throes.

Washington DC has become rotten with corruption and there is nothing in the world that we as citizens can do to change that. That is the nature of power. I'm not blaming Republicans or Democrats, it is simply the way things are and eventually, just like every other civilization, this one is going to collapse. What emerges from the ashes only time will tell.

I would rather not see it in my lifetime, but I think it is inevitable.

Did the founding fathers fail? No, they didn't. Democracy has its life span. Our "Democracy" is no different than any other. But, it is not a failure by any stretch of the imagination.

Immie

Once people (Democrats) found out they could ignore the Constitution and get away with it, the dye was cast. It's just taken this long for it to get to a crisis level.

 

[Tech_Esq]

Look here is the thing........You have THREE options for health care. Get it through your employer. Get it by buying it YOURSELF from an ins company(not possible for most people since it cost's over $1,000 dollars(more than a house payment for many) or go without and hope like HELL you or a family member NEVER gets sick. Now here's the REALLY bad thing. Let's say you get REALLY sick and lose your job because you can't work......Guess what.......Your ins is GONE when you need it MOST. I guess you could get COBRA for a few months but there is NO WAY you could afford it cause hey you are OUT OF A JOB!

I've had my own insurance for over a year and half. You really should stop spreading lies, like it will cost over $1,000. It costs no where near that. I pay under $500 per month for a family plan with Dental insurance. (from Blue Cross)

Really, people we need to stop lying about the current state of affairs. Anyone with a decent paying job can afford health insurance privately purchased. I just went to eheathinsurance.com. If you don't believe me, go there and see what a plan would cost for you. I have no affiliation, just proving a point.

You apparently are very young with no problems. At the last company where I worked, one of the guys went out of our company plan, in which he was paying over $1,000 a month for family coverage, for a cheaper plan he obtained through the internet.

Everything was fine until he came down with multiple sclerosis--no previous history or family history, but they soon cancelled his coverage. They had no intention of taking care of someone who had so many medical needs.

Sure, buy internet insurance or any of those other plans--just don't get sick!

Wrong again! Do you ever tire of being wrong?

I'm well over 40. As I noted in my previous post, not particularly sickly. We do have pre-existing conditions in my family that is covered. That caused the price to be more expensive than it would otherwise.

So, you are saying that because I bought insurance through the mechanism of the Internet, that Blue Cross and Blue Shield purchased through that mechanism is different than Blue Cross purchased another way?

Wrong again. I had the policy reviewed by my mother, who owned an insurance brokerage for 30 years and she pronounced it a good policy. But, I'm sure your take on it is far superior, right?

 

[judyd]

I've had my own insurance for over a year and half. You really should stop spreading lies, like it will cost over $1,000. It costs no where near that. I pay under $500 per month for a family plan with Dental insurance. (from Blue Cross)

Really, people we need to stop lying about the current state of affairs. Anyone with a decent paying job can afford health insurance privately purchased. I just went to eheathinsurance.com. If you don't believe me, go there and see what a plan would cost for you. I have no affiliation, just proving a point.

You apparently are very young with no problems. At the last company where I worked, one of the guys went out of our company plan, in which he was paying over $1,000 a month for family coverage, for a cheaper plan he obtained through the internet.

Everything was fine until he came down with multiple sclerosis--no previous history or family history, but they soon cancelled his coverage. They had no intention of taking care of someone who had so many medical needs.

Sure, buy internet insurance or any of those other plans--just don't get sick!

Wrong again! Do you ever tire of being wrong?

I'm well over 40. As I noted in my previous post, not particularly sickly. We do have pre-existing conditions in my family that is covered. That caused the price to be more expensive than it would otherwise.

So, you are saying that because I bought insurance through the mechanism of the Internet, that Blue Cross and Blue Shield purchased through that mechanism is different than Blue Cross purchased another way?

Wrong again. I had the policy reviewed by my mother, who owned an insurance brokerage for 30 years and she pronounced it a good policy. But, I'm sure your take on it is far superior, right?

I'm not wrong. But I don't expect the son of an insurance broker to acknowledge that the insurance companies have been fleecing the citizens of the US for decades. So your mother got you a good price? Most people aren't that fortunate.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

I know you can get LIFE ins anywhere over state lines but I question getting HEALTH ins that way.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Say I was ABLE to get a Health Ins plan from Washington state.....I would be outta network where ever I go in Idaho. I think we have basically TWO choices Blue Shield and the other I can't remember but TWO choices isn't very much competition don't you think?

 

[Cecilie1200]

You apparently are very young with no problems. At the last company where I worked, one of the guys went out of our company plan, in which he was paying over $1,000 a month for family coverage, for a cheaper plan he obtained through the internet.

Everything was fine until he came down with multiple sclerosis--no previous history or family history, but they soon cancelled his coverage. They had no intention of taking care of someone who had so many medical needs.

Sure, buy internet insurance or any of those other plans--just don't get sick!

Wrong again! Do you ever tire of being wrong?

I'm well over 40. As I noted in my previous post, not particularly sickly. We do have pre-existing conditions in my family that is covered. That caused the price to be more expensive than it would otherwise.

So, you are saying that because I bought insurance through the mechanism of the Internet, that Blue Cross and Blue Shield purchased through that mechanism is different than Blue Cross purchased another way?

Wrong again. I had the policy reviewed by my mother, who owned an insurance brokerage for 30 years and she pronounced it a good policy. But, I'm sure your take on it is far superior, right?

I'm not wrong. But I don't expect the son of an insurance broker to acknowledge that the insurance companies have been fleecing the citizens of the US for decades. So your mother got you a good price? Most people aren't that fortunate.

This wasn't even a good try at a dodge. "Oh, you're just biased, so I can assume anything you say that I don't like is a lie, without any proof that it is." Not hardly. Also, he didn't say his mother got him a good price, which is so painfully obvious in his post that the only way you could have said this is if YOU are a shamelessly baldfaced liar. You should be ashamed of this post, but if you had that much integrity, you wouldn't have posted it in the first place. I'm back to wishing I had an emoticon that would let me spit in disgust.

 

[judyd]

Wrong again! Do you ever tire of being wrong?

I'm well over 40. As I noted in my previous post, not particularly sickly. We do have pre-existing conditions in my family that is covered. That caused the price to be more expensive than it would otherwise.

So, you are saying that because I bought insurance through the mechanism of the Internet, that Blue Cross and Blue Shield purchased through that mechanism is different than Blue Cross purchased another way?

Wrong again. I had the policy reviewed by my mother, who owned an insurance brokerage for 30 years and she pronounced it a good policy. But, I'm sure your take on it is far superior, right?

I'm not wrong. But I don't expect the son of an insurance broker to acknowledge that the insurance companies have been fleecing the citizens of the US for decades. So your mother got you a good price? Most people aren't that fortunate.

This wasn't even a good try at a dodge. "Oh, you're just biased, so I can assume anything you say that I don't like is a lie, without any proof that it is." Not hardly. Also, he didn't say his mother got him a good price, which is so painfully obvious in his post that the only way you could have said this is if YOU are a shamelessly baldfaced liar. You should be ashamed of this post, but if you had that much integrity, you wouldn't have posted it in the first place. I'm back to wishing I had an emoticon that would let me spit in disgust.

Really? So? Did you notice that my comment about his mother was a question--not a statement?

I still stand by my opinion though. If he was brought up by someone who made her living through the health insurance industry, I don't expect him to have an unbiased opinion of a public option.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Democrats have been saying that they are all for the elimination of private health insurance. Don't believe me, watch the videos in this thread:


Immie

I not only believe you, I agree with them.

 

[hvacjones]

Democrats have been saying that they are all for the elimination of private health insurance. Don't believe me, watch the videos in this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...lead-to-single-payer-government-run-care.html

How many jobs will that costs? I am not just talking about the CEOs and upper management jobs but how many jobs of people like you and me who work hard every day just to put dinner on the table will be lost. From the Janitor to middle management and don't forget the little guys, the independent agents who work for you to get you coverage. Those CEO's employ you; your brothers, sisters, parents, children, friends.

Where are those people going to go when the private health insurer disappears?

How many hundreds of thousands of jobs (Democrat jobs) are going to be lost? What industry do you work in?

Is your job safe?

edit: Oh and let me ask you this, aren't you glad Barney Frank and Barack Obama are working so hard to eliminate those jobs?

Immie

They will probobly go work for the government health isurance departmen, who will most likely insure them as part of their employment package.

 

[Immanuel]

Democrats have been saying that they are all for the elimination of private health insurance. Don't believe me, watch the videos in this thread:


Immie

I not only believe you, I agree with them.

Well, knowing you, that is no surprise.

Democrats have been saying that they are all for the elimination of private health insurance. Don't believe me, watch the videos in this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/healt...lead-to-single-payer-government-run-care.html

How many jobs will that costs? I am not just talking about the CEOs and upper management jobs but how many jobs of people like you and me who work hard every day just to put dinner on the table will be lost. From the Janitor to middle management and don't forget the little guys, the independent agents who work for you to get you coverage. Those CEO's employ you; your brothers, sisters, parents, children, friends.

Where are those people going to go when the private health insurer disappears?

How many hundreds of thousands of jobs (Democrat jobs) are going to be lost? What industry do you work in?

Is your job safe?

edit: Oh and let me ask you this, aren't you glad Barney Frank and Barack Obama are working so hard to eliminate those jobs?

Immie

They will probobly go work for the government health isurance departmen, who will most likely insure them as part of their employment package.

Some will... but most won't, but the Democrats will blame the unemployment lines that remind us old folks of the gas lines of the late 70's on Republicans and Bush.

Immie

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm not wrong. But I don't expect the son of an insurance broker to acknowledge that the insurance companies have been fleecing the citizens of the US for decades. So your mother got you a good price? Most people aren't that fortunate.

This wasn't even a good try at a dodge. "Oh, you're just biased, so I can assume anything you say that I don't like is a lie, without any proof that it is." Not hardly. Also, he didn't say his mother got him a good price, which is so painfully obvious in his post that the only way you could have said this is if YOU are a shamelessly baldfaced liar. You should be ashamed of this post, but if you had that much integrity, you wouldn't have posted it in the first place. I'm back to wishing I had an emoticon that would let me spit in disgust.

Really? So? Did you notice that my comment about his mother was a question--not a statement?

I still stand by my opinion though. If he was brought up by someone who made her living through the health insurance industry, I don't expect him to have an unbiased opinion of a public option.

And it's supposed to mean what that you put a question mark at the end? That you weren't really trying to make a point of him only getting a good price because of his mom, or that you were too stupid to figure out what he was saying, which wasn't anything of the sort? Either way, you don't come out looking very good.

I'm sure you stand by your opinion. I'm equally sure that your opinion would be the same, ie. "I don't have to pay any attention to anything I don't want to hear", no matter who said it. I don't expect an idealogue hack like you to have an unbiased opinion of a public option, so I guess we're even on that.

For the record, should you ever muster the intellectual honesty to actually investigate what people tell you instead of kneejerk deciding that they're just lying because they don't agree with you (I won't be holding my breath for it), you might try visiting the Blue Cross/Blue Shield website and finding out what sort of coverage they're offering. You might be surprised . . . of course, you might also sprain something from your first experience with independent thought, too.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Judyd did not dodge, and Cecilie1200 is absolutely wrong to think that "mom" is not a biased source, or that the child of an insurance agent is going to be objective about the insurance industry.

Whatever Cecilie1200 has to say better be taken with a pound of salt.

 

[listenner]

A market driven economy is a good thing. Your position on "Public Option" as a "Job Loss" medium is incorrect.

The concept: Public Option is competitive to the established "stand alone" benefit providers, thus a driver toward better cost structures and less restrictive enrollments.

Public Option is THAT, an OPTION Single Payer (i.e. Medicare look-a-like) is somewhere down the line. It is not the bill under play

When more people participate, more people are needed to service benefits flow. Thus, it follows, more people are employed....

 

[logical4u]

Public option: slaves (citizens) standing in long lines waiting for health care if they are strong enough to stand (otherwise, they are passed by the healtier citizens that want their "free" healthcare). Doctors that are forced into servitude by accepting gov grants for their schooling. Nurses that have their salaries capped by the gov to keep costs down. Health care facilities staffed by people that do not care if you live or die, they are there because the gov has blackmailed them with threats of denying health care to their families or because all the other jobs in the USA have gone away due to high taxes and businesses that have been regulated out of business.
People that believe the gov can take care of health care by taking a bigger chunk from those that make more than them are plain blind and unwilling to open their eyes and look at other nations that have "free" health care. It is not free, it is not great, and it is harder to get "life saving" medical care (unless you are part of the ruling elite).
If you want "free" health care, just sell yourself on Craig's list; you will be just a piece of property when this is passed, the rest of us prefer freedom over a "caretaker/boss".

 

[Intense]

Public option: slaves (citizens) standing in long lines waiting for health care if they are strong enough to stand (otherwise, they are passed by the healtier citizens that want their "free" healthcare). Doctors that are forced into servitude by accepting gov grants for their schooling. Nurses that have their salaries capped by the gov to keep costs down. Health care facilities staffed by people that do not care if you live or die, they are there because the gov has blackmailed them with threats of denying health care to their families or because all the other jobs in the USA have gone away due to high taxes and businesses that have been regulated out of business.
People that believe the gov can take care of health care by taking a bigger chunk from those that make more than them are plain blind and unwilling to open their eyes and look at other nations that have "free" health care. It is not free, it is not great, and it is harder to get "life saving" medical care (unless you are part of the ruling elite).
If you want "free" health care, just sell yourself on Craig's list; you will be just a piece of property when this is passed, the rest of us prefer freedom over a "caretaker/boss".

I had an Interesting conversation with a French Woman today, She teaches at the UN School. After lecturing Me about how screwed up our Health Care System is here, compared to France, she did note that another primary difference between our systems is the little paperwork done in France. Doctors are not so blessed with impressive Staffs, they are much more on Their own. Too much Paper work here, and unnecessary Bullshit.