Putin, It's Enough!

[Camp]

Prosecute a crime? What a draft statement. You don’t prosecute (or even effectively investigate) in an area that is still under contention. This is an international issue.
The US HAS claimed they know who shot down the plane. YOU are rejecting it out of hand because… well you have not said why. Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories…
How about you actually back something up rather than demand that no one else is and blatantly making claims that have no real evidence.

Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.

I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads. If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.

It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:

• MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
• PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/
• Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S

Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?

The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war. We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.

Now put your big boy pants on...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?

Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof? Intelligent people don't.

Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.

Does not matter. Why do you persist with your foolishness?

My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation. Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see? He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case. He is the POTUS!!!

Why are you grabbing at straws?

Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?

Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?

You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.

You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.

For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff. He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.

I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.

He better back it up or what? He is deferring his judgement or responsibility for the shoot down on the Defense Department and NATO. He has every right to support the conclusions made by those authorities and express his opinion. You have yet to refute the evidence that has been made public and has been brought up in this thread numerous times. Many, including the President, believe the evidence already made public is enough to point the finger at the separatist. Big surprise, you take the side of the Russians and the separatist and continue to echo their propaganda while they hinder further investigation and refuse to allow the case to be handled by an international court under authority of the UN.

 

[ESay]

Some additional information about the investigation of the crash.

The Dutch Safety Board has reported on the progress of the investigation into the MH17 crash to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO).
There is not much information, but what is written there - The draft final reports on the investigation into the crash and the investigation pertaining to flight routes were made available to the accredited representatives of the participating States on Tuesday, 2 June.
The states participating in the investigation are Malaysia, Ukraine, the United States, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, Australia and the Netherlands.

So, if I understand correctly, the representatives of these states, and thereby the governments of these states, are already completely aware what will be in the final report.

Dutch Safety Board Investigations Publication Investigation crash MH17 17 July 2014

 

[gipper]

Funny...you want me to back up my opinion yet you do not require the American government to do the same.

I have backed up my statements with many references in prior threads. If you are too lazy to search for the truth, then that's on you.

It has been almost a year since the shoot down and here is the latest news:

• MH17: Many possibilities, no definite suspects behind crash - See more at: MH17 Many possibilities no definite suspects behind crash AsiaOne Malaysia News
• PROSECUTOR: MH17 INVESTIGATION GOING WELL http://www.nltimes.nl/2015/06/30/prosecutor-mh17-investigation-going-well/
• Still no suspects in downing of MH17 over Ukraine http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/still-no-suspects-in-downing-of-mh17-over-ukraine/ar-AAclQ1S

Now can we try to THINK logically here for a minute?

The US gov, most western media, and many Euro govs immediately accused Russian backed rebels of this murderous act of war. We know the US gov has considerable capabilities in monitoring all things around the globe, yet no documented proof by US gov officials has been presented. The US gov makes a damning accusation and yet, the news is we still don't know who did it.

Now put your big boy pants on...when the head of the world's only superpower makes an accusation of this nature, why has he not gone to the Hague or UN with his evidence to show the world proof?

Do you merely accept an accusation by a POTUS and his paid for lackeys, without proof? Intelligent people don't.

Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.

Does not matter. Why do you persist with your foolishness?

My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation. Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see? He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case. He is the POTUS!!!

Why are you grabbing at straws?

Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?

Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?

You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.

You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.

For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff. He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.

I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.

He better back it up or what? He is deferring his judgement or responsibility for the shoot down on the Defense Department and NATO. He has every right to support the conclusions made by those authorities and express his opinion. You have yet to refute the evidence that has been made public and has been brought up in this thread numerous times. Many, including the President, believe the evidence already made public is enough to point the finger at the separatist. Big surprise, you take the side of the Russians and the separatist and continue to echo their propaganda while they hinder further investigation and refuse to allow the case to be handled by an international court under authority of the UN.

So in your mind it is perfectly okay for the POTUS to accuse Russian separatists of shooting down the plane ONE DAY AFTER THE EVENT OCCURRED.

• He then hit Russia with economic sanctions a little over a week after the shoot down.
• His ambassador to the UN issued a scathing attack on Russia and blamed Putin at a UN Security Council meeting just three days after the shoot down.
• Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, went even further, raising the possibility that the Russian military had actually fired the missile that took down the plane.
• BO even accused Putin of being a liar.
• Three days after the shoot down John Stupid Kerry accused the Russians.
• And on and on and on.........

Does that sound like a POTUS willing to defer judgement?

Do you think it proper to make wild accusations prior to any investigation and do it against a nuclear armed nation?

If dipshit Bush did this, the media would be calling him a crazed cowboy and they would be right....but its cool cause BO's in charge.

 

[Camp]

Often posters post links without reading them. This is a great example of that stupidity. Gipper's links are up to date. What they say is that the Dutch have narrowed the investigation down to "interested persons" and the final report will not be ready until sometime around the end of the year. But wait, here is the good part. It confirms what was already known about Russia. Russia is rejecting the case be heard in front of a UN tribunal. The Dutch and others wanted the case heard by and in a court that has international authority. Russia says no and has the power to veto any proposed resolution that would create a UN court. The Ukraine does not have that authority. So the answer to why this case has not come to trial and why all the evidence hasn't been made public in a public trial is because the Russians are refusing to allow the UN to do it. Russia is refusing to allow a court with international authority the right to investigate and bring forth charges. If you doubt the accuracy of this post, just read the links provided by Mr. Gipper.

Does not matter. Why do you persist with your foolishness?

My point, which you tend to ALWAYS distort or forget, is the POTUS made a very damning accusation. Now don't you think he should make his case for the world to see? He does not need the UN or any other authority to make his case. He is the POTUS!!!

Why are you grabbing at straws?

Why has the US gov been silent on this issue for many months now?

Does none of this cause you the slightest suspicion that what we are told just maybe now....just maybe....might not be accurate?

You are the one grabbing at straws. It is not the POTUS job to interfere with an investigation and legal affairs. The US made the feelings and opinions known and you don't like Obama so you are whining about it and trying to use the incident and case for your normal Obama derangement syndrome and hatred. Why should the American President jeopardize a legal proceeding being conducted by the Dutch or possibly an international tribunal of some kind? It is not the US or POTUS's job to prosecute this case.

You apparently have no understanding of international diplomacy.

For a seating POTUS to accuse another nation of an act of war, is big stuff. He better back up his pronouncements with facts proving his accusation.

I guess you don't hold Obama to any standards of conduct, so he can do and say what he wishes...in your mind.

He better back it up or what? He is deferring his judgement or responsibility for the shoot down on the Defense Department and NATO. He has every right to support the conclusions made by those authorities and express his opinion. You have yet to refute the evidence that has been made public and has been brought up in this thread numerous times. Many, including the President, believe the evidence already made public is enough to point the finger at the separatist. Big surprise, you take the side of the Russians and the separatist and continue to echo their propaganda while they hinder further investigation and refuse to allow the case to be handled by an international court under authority of the UN.

So in your mind it is perfectly okay for the POTUS to accuse Russian separatists of shooting down the plane ONE DAY AFTER THE EVENT OCCURRED.

• He then hit Russia with economic sanctions a little over a week after the shoot down.
• His ambassador to the UN issued a scathing attack on Russia and blamed Putin at a UN Security Council meeting just three days after the shoot down.
• Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, went even further, raising the possibility that the Russian military had actually fired the missile that took down the plane.
• BO even accused Putin of being a liar.
• Three days after the shoot down John Stupid Kerry accused the Russians.
• And on and on and on.........

Does that sound like a POTUS willing to defer judgement?

Do you think it proper to make wild accusations prior to any investigation and do it against a nuclear armed nation?

If dipshit Bush did this, the media would be calling him a crazed cowboy and they would be right....but its cool cause BO's in charge.

The most damning evidence, the cell phone intercepts and the social media posting were available immediately. Taking into account that Ukrainian military aircraft were being attacked and shot down with missiles in that same area, the President made a good call. If anything, I would have preferred he was more aggressive and harsher. When the Russian controlled separatist blocked international crews from entering and inspecting the crash seen or recovering evidence and even remains the proper attitude towards the Russians was to show disdain and disgust. Bodies were being left in the hot sun and looted and at night devoured by wild animals and dogs and you are complaining that the President was unfairly harsh with the people he knew caused the incident to start with. You guys seem to want to ignore those facts. Russia and the separatist left those bodies out in the weather and the mercy of animals and refused to let unarmed volunteers from neutral countries into the crash area. What do you suppose they were trying to hide?

 

[JimH52]

QUOTE="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.

What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really cares about Ukraine? Look:

- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there ARE quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think. I'd love to thank them a lot!!!

"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"

I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.

 

[Camp]

QUOTE="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.

What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really cares about Ukraine? Look:

- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there ARE quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think. I'd love to thank them a lot!!!

"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"

I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.

No hate. Don't like old style Soviet totalitarianism. That is what is being brought to Ukraine. It is happening in Russia too, but Russian masses are convinced by propaganda that the world is out to get them and only Putin can save them. Those who question this and begin to get attention and support are arrested, killed or becomes missing.
In Donetsk the journalist can not move around without a "guide" escorting them. All reports must be censored by officials. Art galleries are taken over and controlled by authorities also. Some art is being destroyed as not proper art for people of Donetsk to see. Even the famous "Lipstick Tube" aka "Make-up" created from an old smokestack to commemorate women who helped restore Donetsk after the war was blown up by separatist. So journalist have guides like the totalitarian government in N. Korea and art is being destroyed like the totalitarians in ISIS areas of their control. Peace demonstrations are forbidden in Donetsk, as in N. Korea and the Caliphate.

What happens to those who question authority in occupied Ukraine areas?

 

[PK1]

QUOTE="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.

What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really cares about Ukraine? Look:

- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there ARE quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think. I'd love to thank them a lot!!!

"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"

I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.

No hate. Don't like old style Soviet totalitarianism. That is what is being brought to Ukraine. It is happening in Russia too, but Russian masses are convinced by propaganda that the world is out to get them and only Putin can save them. Those who question this and begin to get attention and support are arrested, killed or becomes missing.
In Donetsk the journalist can not move around without a "guide" escorting them. All reports must be censored by officials. Art galleries are taken over and controlled by authorities also. Some art is being destroyed as not proper art for people of Donetsk to see. Even the famous "Lipstick Tube" aka "Make-up" created from an old smokestack to commemorate women who helped restore Donetsk after the war was blown up by separatist. So journalist have guides like the totalitarian government in N. Korea and art is being destroyed like the totalitarians in ISIS areas of their control. Peace demonstrations are forbidden in Donetsk, as in N. Korea and the Caliphate.

What happens to those who question authority in occupied Ukraine areas?

---
"What happens to those who question authority in occupied Ukraine areas?"

They become "missing".
Ethnic cleansing, if a Uki speaks out in protest.
Before the Russian takeover of the Donbas cities, there were more Ukrainians living in those eastern Oblasts than ethnic Russians.
The Russians are actively changing that mix with fascist methods supported by papa Putin.

 

[Stratford57]

QUOTE="JimH52, post: 11735142, member: 6882"] QUOTE="Stratford57, post: 11729927, member: 49659"] QUOTE="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really cares about Ukraine? Look:
- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there ARE quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think. I'd love to thank them a lot!!![ QUOTE]
"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"
I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.[ QUOTE]


Only the one who is not familiar with the history of Russia could say that.

1. Eastern part of Ukraine (half of the country) as well as Belarus were parts of Russia for centuries, many centuries before the world even heard about the USA existence. Russia was called “Kiev Russia” and Kiev was called ”the mother of Russian cities”. In 988 Prince Vladimir has started baptizing the people of Russia in the river Dnepr, city of Kiev. This mass baptism became the iconic inaugural event in the Christianization of the state of Kievan Rus'.
Christianization of Kievan Rus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia’
So, for Russia Ukraine basically is the same people, for half of a country Russian is still the first language (in spite of a forced total ukrainization of Russian speaking population, which started as soon as Ukraine became “independent”) . When Junta came to the power after the coup and started genocide of its population (killing or throwing into prison the ones who disagree with it, pulling the people into the war and misery), we can understand Russia/Putin’s concerns about it. What we don’t understand: what’s the USA business there. USA have had nothing to do with Ukraine in the past, while the blood obviously is thicker than water.

2. In 1919 after the October revolution Lenin “gave“ a part of Russia (which is now Eastern Ukraine) to Ukrainian republic ( to raise the percentage of proletariat in Ukrainian republic), however it was within the same country of the USSR. Later in 1954 Khrushchev “gave” Crimean peninsula to Ukrainian republic.
(The history of Western Ukraine is a little different).

3. In 1992 three crooks (Yeltsyn, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch) with Washington’s blessing have separated Ukraine and Belarus’ from Russia and declared them separate countries. So, they have been called separate countries for 24 years (can 24 years be compared to centuries?). The people living in Eastern Ukraine (including myself) felt like treir Motherland has been stolen from them and found themselves living in a foreign and not friendly country of Ukraine. However Western Ukrainians were happy. (And since then what makes Western Ukrainians happy is bad for Eastern Ukrainians and vise verse).

About 70 or 80% of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to stay in a Custom Union with Russia, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan. And Western Ukrainians want to join the EU and tear Ukraine away from Russia for good. And that’s why Kiev has pulled its troops to Donbass and that’s what I meant in the post you quoted.

P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times (and I agree, my English is not perfect). However I wonder if yourself can write in any foreign language at least at my level?

 

[PK1]

QUOTE="JimH52, post: 11735142, member: 6882"] QUOTE="Stratford57, post: 11729927, member: 49659"] QUOTE="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really cares about Ukraine? Look:
- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there ARE quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think. I'd love to thank them a lot!!![ QUOTE]
"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"
I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.[ QUOTE]


Only the one who is not familiar with the history of Russia could say that.

1. Eastern part of Ukraine (half of the country) as well as Belarus were parts of Russia for centuries, many centuries before the world even heard about the USA existence. Russia was called “Kiev Russia” and Kiev was called ”the mother of Russian cities”. In 988 Prince Vladimir has started baptizing the people of Russia in the river Dnepr, city of Kiev. This mass baptism became the iconic inaugural event in the Christianization of the state of Kievan Rus'.
Christianization of Kievan Rus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia’
So, for Russia Ukraine basically is the same people, for half of a country Russian is still the first language (in spite of a forced total ukrainization of Russian speaking population, which started as soon as Ukraine became “independent”) . When Junta came to the power after the coup and started genocide of its population (killing or throwing into prison the ones who disagree with it, pulling the people into the war and misery), we can understand Russia/Putin’s concerns about it. What we don’t understand: what’s the USA business there. USA have had nothing to do with Ukraine in the past, while the blood obviously is thicker than water.

2. In 1919 after the October revolution Lenin “gave“ a part of Russia (which is now Eastern Ukraine) to Ukrainian republic ( to raise the percentage of proletariat in Ukrainian republic), however it was within the same country of the USSR. Later in 1954 Khrushchev “gave” Crimean peninsula to Ukrainian republic.
(The history of Western Ukraine is a little different).

3. In 1992 three crooks (Yeltsyn, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch) with Washington’s blessing have separated Ukraine and Belarus’ from Russia and declared them separate countries. So, they have been called separate countries for 24 years (can 24 years be compared to centuries?). The people living in Eastern Ukraine (including myself) felt like treir Motherland has been stolen from them and found themselves living in a foreign and not friendly country of Ukraine. However Western Ukrainians were happy. (And since then what makes Western Ukrainians happy is bad for Eastern Ukrainians and vise verse).

About 70 or 80% of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to stay in a Custom Union with Russia, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan. And Western Ukrainians want to join the EU and tear Ukraine away from Russia for good. And that’s why Kiev has pulled its troops to Donbass and that’s what I meant in the post you quoted.

P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times (and I agree, my English is not perfect). However I wonder if yourself can write in any foreign language at least at my level?

---
Gee "Stratford", it looks like you're doing a good job earning your Putin propaganda pay ... which is effective on readers ignorant of actual historical & current events in Ukraine.
Let me provide corrective info here ...

The Ukrainian people and their Ukrainian language have been culturally independent from most "Russians" since the 1600's, although the Tsarist & Communist RUSSIANS have tried to eliminate their independence since the 1800's thru forced "Russification" programs ... until Ukraine finally became an INDEPENDENT nation in 1991, thanks to Yeltsyn, who hated the Soviet totalitarian regime.

Yes, in eastern Ukraine, where Russification has been the most effective since the Stalin era, there are many ethnic Russians (about 40% in only the 2 war-torn Donbass oblasts & mostly in cities) among the majority Ukrainian populations, and most Uki's there speak Russian too.
However, the Ukrainians in the east do NOT want to join Russia, as one of our many Putin trolls lies.
In fact, the Ukrainians want Russia to stop their aggression toward them,
i.e., Russia, get out of Ukraine!

New poll shows eastern Ukraine s separatists are wrong - The Washington Post

According to last year's "poll by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a vast majority of those living in Ukraine -- both in the restive east and more nationalist west -- want the country's borders to remain the same, despite the many political and social tensions that have come to the surface in recent months.
Only 18 percent of those surveyed in eastern Ukraine think the country's regions should be allowed to secede -- a statistic that serves as something of a rebuke to Pushilin and his fellow separatists."

 

[Tehon]

Owned.

Colonel Cassad -

 

[Sbiker]

QUOTE="JimH52, post: 11735142, member: 6882"] QUOTE="Stratford57, post: 11729927, member: 49659"] QUOTE="tinydancer, post: 11728639, member: 25451"]Look nazi lovers. If you want to back the coup fucking go for it. If you want to worship Bandera fucking go for it. If you want to be nazi 24/7 on the board go for it.
What is there to argue about? You love your nazis in Kiev and you pulled off a successful coup.[ QUOTE]

Hey, Tiny, do you think any of your opponents really cares about Ukraine? Look:
- Esay badly wants the EU to adopt Ukraine no matter how many destroyed lives it takes and how many people are already living in misery just in a year after the coup (and the things are getting worse every day);
- Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good, regardless of the opinion of at least 15 millions Ukrainian citizens in the East, who want to be with Russia;
- Pk1 and all his clones (Mike Bredsbey, Lisitsyn, PitStewart etc.) are trolls, who've joined USMB for the only purpose is to "stir the crap" against Russia;
- JimH52 as well as the majority of Americans on USMB "know" about Ukraine only from their "news", can't even find it on the map and don't care how many lives are (and will be!) sacrificed to the bloodthirsty geopolitical interests of their country. Thanks God there ARE quite a few Americans who don't buy what they are told and prefer to keep their eyes open and to think. I'd love to thank them a lot!!![ QUOTE]
"Camp hates Russia and would love to see Ukraine separated from Russia for good,"
I hate to break it to you Chuckie, but Ukraine is not part of Russia, not until Pooootin annexes it, which he is desperately trying to do.[ QUOTE]


Only the one who is not familiar with the history of Russia could say that.

1. Eastern part of Ukraine (half of the country) as well as Belarus were parts of Russia for centuries, many centuries before the world even heard about the USA existence. Russia was called “Kiev Russia” and Kiev was called ”the mother of Russian cities”. In 988 Prince Vladimir has started baptizing the people of Russia in the river Dnepr, city of Kiev. This mass baptism became the iconic inaugural event in the Christianization of the state of Kievan Rus'.
Christianization of Kievan Rus - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia’
So, for Russia Ukraine basically is the same people, for half of a country Russian is still the first language (in spite of a forced total ukrainization of Russian speaking population, which started as soon as Ukraine became “independent”) . When Junta came to the power after the coup and started genocide of its population (killing or throwing into prison the ones who disagree with it, pulling the people into the war and misery), we can understand Russia/Putin’s concerns about it. What we don’t understand: what’s the USA business there. USA have had nothing to do with Ukraine in the past, while the blood obviously is thicker than water.

2. In 1919 after the October revolution Lenin “gave“ a part of Russia (which is now Eastern Ukraine) to Ukrainian republic ( to raise the percentage of proletariat in Ukrainian republic), however it was within the same country of the USSR. Later in 1954 Khrushchev “gave” Crimean peninsula to Ukrainian republic.
(The history of Western Ukraine is a little different).

3. In 1992 three crooks (Yeltsyn, Kravchuk, Shushkevitch) with Washington’s blessing have separated Ukraine and Belarus’ from Russia and declared them separate countries. So, they have been called separate countries for 24 years (can 24 years be compared to centuries?). The people living in Eastern Ukraine (including myself) felt like treir Motherland has been stolen from them and found themselves living in a foreign and not friendly country of Ukraine. However Western Ukrainians were happy. (And since then what makes Western Ukrainians happy is bad for Eastern Ukrainians and vise verse).

About 70 or 80% of the people in Eastern Ukraine want to stay in a Custom Union with Russia, Belarus’ and Kazakhstan. And Western Ukrainians want to join the EU and tear Ukraine away from Russia for good. And that’s why Kiev has pulled its troops to Donbass and that’s what I meant in the post you quoted.

P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times (and I agree, my English is not perfect). However I wonder if yourself can write in any foreign language at least at my level?

---
Gee "Stratford", it looks like you're doing a good job earning your Putin propaganda pay ... which is effective on readers ignorant of actual historical & current events in Ukraine.
Let me provide corrective info here ...

The Ukrainian people and their Ukrainian language have been culturally independent from most "Russians" since the 1600's, although the Tsarist & Communist RUSSIANS have tried to eliminate their independence since the 1800's thru forced "Russification" programs ... until Ukraine finally became an INDEPENDENT nation in 1991, thanks to Yeltsyn, who hated the Soviet totalitarian regime.

Yes, in eastern Ukraine, where Russification has been the most effective since the Stalin era, there are many ethnic Russians (about 40% in only the 2 war-torn Donbass oblasts & mostly in cities) among the majority Ukrainian populations, and most Uki's there speak Russian too.
However, the Ukrainians in the east do NOT want to join Russia, as one of our many Putin trolls lies.
In fact, the Ukrainians want Russia to stop their aggression toward them,
i.e., Russia, get out of Ukraine!

New poll shows eastern Ukraine s separatists are wrong - The Washington Post

According to last year's "poll by the Pew Global Attitudes Project, a vast majority of those living in Ukraine -- both in the restive east and more nationalist west -- want the country's borders to remain the same, despite the many political and social tensions that have come to the surface in recent months.
Only 18 percent of those surveyed in eastern Ukraine think the country's regions should be allowed to secede -- a statistic that serves as something of a rebuke to Pushilin and his fellow separatists."

PK, you're a secret Russian troll, stop your propaganda against Ukraine!

 

[Sbiker]

P.S. You, JimH52, have been criticizing my English several times

Relax! We are private people, didnt' had army language courses...

 

[Stratford57]

QUOTE="PK1, post: 11721636, member: 54974"]
---
Ukraine genocide?
You conveniently forgot the Holodomor in the '30's when Stalin had millions of Ukrainians starve to death.[/QUOTE]

“Holodomor” is a term, invented to rewrite the history: official Kiev wants Ukrainians and the Western world to believe that the famine in 30-s was Stalin’s intentional internal policy for the purpose of genocide of Ukrainians. However it contradicts the real history: the famine was all over the country of the USSR and occurred at least in 3 Soviet republics: Russia, Ukraine and Kazakhstan.


The Soviet famine of 1932–33 affected the major grain-producing areas of the Soviet Union, leading to the deaths of millions in those areas and severe food insecurity throughout the USSR. These areas included Ukraine, Northern Caucasus, Volga Region and Kazakhstan, the South Urals, and West Siberia. The subset of the famine within the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is called Holodomor or "hungry mass-death."

Soviet famine of 1932 33 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


In the current century the only thing official Kiev has been good at is rewriting history. The purpose of all those lies about common history of Russia and Ukraine is ethnic strife and making Ukrainians hate their brothers Russians. “Divide and rule!” or “Fish in troubled waters!”.

Since Ukrainians have to hate Russians (according to official Kiev) for the Stalin’s stupid internal policy damage in 30-s, they have to hate Germans even more for the damage they [Germans] have done to Ukraine, Belarus and Russia in 40-s during WW2. But that just doesn’t make sense!

Last century the foreign historians were mocking the USSR, saying “In the USSR even the past is unpredictable.” Lately Ukraine has even surpassed the USSR: the past has become totally unpredictable in Ukraine since the coup.

A few months ago Ukrainian prime minister Yatsenuk has made some surprising statements during his visit to Germany: “Russia invaded Ukraine and Germany during WW2” [Ukraine was part of the USSR as well as Russia; and the USSR, the USA, France, Britain were fighting together against Germany during WW2 if case somebody has forgotten. However Western Ukrainians were fighting on Hitler’s side under the leadership of Stephan Bandera. Last year official Kiev has announced Stephan Bandera to become a national hero of Ukraine.]

Yatsenuk ^, the world champion in rewriting history.

 

[PK1]

---
Re: your recent anti-Ukraine post on Soviet famine in early 1930's ...

Yes, there were millions of Soviet deaths outside Ukraine during Stalin's regime, but Ukraine had it worse by far and it's even considered genocide by 25 countries.

In your own Wikipedia reference on the "Soviet Famine", the loss of life estimated by Robert Conquest is "5 million in Ukraine, 1 million in the North Caucasus, and 1 million elsewhere".
More detail can be explored here:
Holodomor - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Regarding your propaganda's tiresome references to Bandera, as explained before, he was not a Nazi but a Ukrainian nationalist who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny.
Hitler imprisoned Bandera for not being a Nazi 1941-1944.

Instead of focusing on a twisted view of History, why don't you stick with current events and try disputing this thread's opening post on Putin's propaganda machine operating out of St Petersburg and elsewhere (RT, etc).

 

[indiajo]

Hey! How many know that Poroshenko is using Ukrainian neo nazis to fight the rebels in the east?

Not anymore. They just start fighting him.
Soon you will have the opportunity to welcome him in the US, granting him exile.

 

[Camp]

Something for a one year anniversary

de.storyclash.com/Field-of-death-Unraveling-the-mystery-of-MH17-4424195

 

[Sonc]

Regarding your propaganda's tiresome references to Bandera, as explained before, he was not a Nazi but a Ukrainian nationalist

You're so clever.

Methods[edit]
The atrocities were carried out indiscriminately and without restraint. The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies inNo Simple Victory gives a short, but shocking description of the massacres. He writes:
Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province's future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles.[91]
An OUN order from early 1944 stated:
Liquidate all Polish traces. Destroy all walls in the Catholic Church and other Polish prayer houses. Destroy orchards and trees in the courtyards so that there will be no trace that someone lived there... Pay attention to the fact that when something remains that is Polish, then the Poles will have pretensions to our land".[9]
...
...
In many cases, victims were tortured and their bodies mutilated.

"Ukrainian nationalist who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny."
Here Stalin's soldiers.
For some reason all of them are Poles...

 

[Camp]

What are people thinking when they post these horrible photo's? There is no way to prove where they came from or what nation or group is responsible for them. Maybe they are photo's of indiscriminate bombing and artillery fire from Soviet forces. Maybe they are innocent Ukrainians murdered by Soviets. It's all just propaganda. What nation does not have bad soldiers seeking revenge that does not commit these kinds of war crimes?

The purpose of the post is better served by posting this link about the Volhynia Massacre from which these photo's are alleged to have come from or depict.

www.volhyniamassacre.eu

 

[Igrok_]

almost certainly there will soon be a monument of Dzerzhinsky in front of a famous building on Lubianka. Apparently, the monument will be a reminder for Russian contemporary ‘chekists’ how they should work.

It is a lie like almost all that ukrainians know and say about Russia.

 

[Sonc]

It's all just propaganda.

No. It's a fact - Ukrainian nationalists are guilty of Volyn massacre.
Propaganda here
"who fought against Stalin & Russian tyranny."
Those who are gutting pregnant women ... referred to as "heroes" who fought against Russian tyranny.