Push comes to shove, will U. S. military back Wall Street, POTUS, or American voters?

[Preius]

Constitutional Topic: Martial Law - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

I see....

Does that mean this section of the Declaration of Independence is wrong, Should I contact a Constitutional attorney for adivice. Someone with the credentials of.......lets say..... Barry Obama?

The Declaration of Independence

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,"

Just trying to get this clear. Maybe some military experts will contribute here.

the declaration of independence is not law.

So, you are saying the Declaration of Independence is not as much United States law as the U. S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights........if I understand you correctly?

I would need to see a link from a VERY strong source supporting your point of view to accept that.

A U. S. Supreme Court Justice majority opinion would suffice. After all I did link you to the direct quote in the Declaration of Independence.

Please show me the courtesy. Thank you. It would appear that others are as interested in this topic as I am. Very American.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Sorry, but I am making no statement about any movement, well maybe the Tea Party, but there is a slim chance of that.

All I have posted is that the founders of this country thought it was VERY important to state in writing in the Declaration of Independence that we have the right to 'alter or abolish' our form of government. Why would that be scary? Remember who signed that declaration, liberal Thomas Jefferson, conservative John Adams, conservative southern aristocrat John Rutledge from South Carolina, the great Benjamin Franklin, and the leaders from all 13 colonies. These men hammered out the exact wording of that document for weeks until they all agreed unanimously. Imagine how difficult that had to be. Are you saying our founding fathers were wrong?

Oh really, you made no statement about any movement.

your posting..

1). Take the side of Wall Street.

2). Do whatever the Commander in Chief told them to do.

3). Like Egypt, the military would lean toward change while supporting our existing government.

4). Lean toward change because the gridlock of Wall Street and politics hurts the military also.

5). Other

Well, that was certainly not my intention, but I can see how you viewed things that way. I am a capitalist, a social liberal, but a fiscal moderate. For God sake I am an Eagle Scout, I have lived my life by the principles of Americanism. I work in Advertising, you can't get more big business than a national advertising agency. I own stock in John Deere and Kroger for Christ sake.

There are many threads these days about Wall Street. I have generated some examples that I thought would encourage posters to my OP. I mean....my gosh....there are posters here that are FAR MORE conservative than I. I would think they would be upholding the Declaration to the letter of each word, and support me in my question.

Having a little problem with the Declaration of Independence are we, Stephanie? How can I help you?

You claim to want prior military opinion yet ignore it? Once again the Declaration of Independence is not law nor does any part of regulate, control or provide authority to our Government. The Constitution does that.

And I repeat we are free to rebellion if we fe4ll the Government is no longer receptive to our will.

The OWS movement is a bunch of spoiled people that think the Government owes them something. The military would not support it and if they begin active rebellion would put them down.

 

[Stephanie]

Sorry, but I am making no statement about any movement, well maybe the Tea Party, but there is a slim chance of that.

All I have posted is that the founders of this country thought it was VERY important to state in writing in the Declaration of Independence that we have the right to 'alter or abolish' our form of government. Why would that be scary? Remember who signed that declaration, liberal Thomas Jefferson, conservative John Adams, conservative southern aristocrat John Rutledge from South Carolina, the great Benjamin Franklin, and the leaders from all 13 colonies. These men hammered out the exact wording of that document for weeks until they all agreed unanimously. Imagine how difficult that had to be. Are you saying our founding fathers were wrong?

Oh really, you made no statement about any movement.



your posting..

1). Take the side of Wall Street.

2). Do whatever the Commander in Chief told them to do.

3). Like Egypt, the military would lean toward change while supporting our existing government.

4). Lean toward change because the gridlock of Wall Street and politics hurts the military also.

5). Other

Well, that was certainly not my intention, but I can see how you viewed things that way. I am a capitalist, a social liberal, but a fiscal moderate. For God sake I am an Eagle Scout, I have lived my life by the principles of Americanism. I work in Advertising, you can't get more big business than a national advertising agency. I own stock in John Deere and Kroger for Christ sake.

There are many threads these days about Wall Street. I have generated some examples that I thought would encourage posters to my OP. I mean....my gosh....there are posters here that are FAR MORE conservative than I. I would think they would be upholding the Declaration to the letter of each word, and support me in my question.

Having a little problem with the Declaration of Independence are we, Stephanie? How can I help you?

tsk tsk..got caught did you?
You have been a outspoken voice for the Ows movement on the board or did you think no one noticed..

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I see....

Does that mean this section of the Declaration of Independence is wrong, Should I contact a Constitutional attorney for adivice. Someone with the credentials of.......lets say..... Barry Obama?

The Declaration of Independence

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,"

Just trying to get this clear. Maybe some military experts will contribute here.

the declaration of independence is not law.

So, you are saying the Declaration of Independence is not as much United States law as the U. S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights........if I understand you correctly.

I would need to see a link from a strong source supporting your point of view to accept that. After all I did link you to the direct quote in the Declaration of Independence. Please show me the courtesy.

Link to what? The Declaration is not law. Never has been. Or perhaps you can provide us a governing phrase or article in it that provides power, authority or law to this Government?

 

[Unkotare]

So, you are saying the Declaration of Independence is not as much United States law as the U. S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights........if I understand you correctly? :

It is hard to believe that anyone could be as stupid as you.

 

[The Gadfly]

"I......, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, in accordance with regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so help me God"

That oath is first and foremost to the Constitution; not to the land, the people, or any party. The troops will obey any lawful order; i.e. any order that does not, on its face, violate either applicable regulations, or the UCMJ, is presumptively lawful. It really is that simple.

 

[Sallow]

Martial law is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, but the suspension of habeas corpus is mentioned in Article 1, Section 9, and the activation of the militia in time of rebellion or invasion is mentioned in Article 1, Section 8.

Constitutional Topic: Martial Law - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

I see....

Does that mean this section of the Declaration of Independence is wrong, Should I contact a Constitutional attorney for adivice. Someone with the credentials of.......lets say..... Barry Obama?

The Declaration of Independence

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,"

Just trying to get this clear. Maybe some military experts will contribute here.

The declaration of independence is NOT where legislation is derived.

 

[Sallow]

"I......, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, in accordance with regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so help me God"

That oath is first and foremost to the Constitution; not to the land, the people, or any party. The troops will obey any lawful order; i.e. any order that does not, on its face, violate either applicable regulations, or the UCMJ, is presumptively lawful. It really is that simple.

Hey!

That's my line!

 

[Douger]

The US of fallen empire is comprised of people from nearly all the nations that exist.
They left because they couldn't effect change and had no hope.
I left for that very reason. You people will never change.

OOOOOOOOOo Britney has 3 nipplez ! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee !

 

[mskafka]

In a current America, the military would do what it has taken an oath to do: Support and defend the constitution of the United States of America. This will be up for debate, when some of the extreme left or right read it, but I'm just quoting the oath, folks.

But what will happen if the shit truly hits the fan for the majority of Americans (50% or more), is anyone's guess.
1. If we have a large population of people lining up daily, waiting for a slice of bread,

2.if soldiers were forced to fire upon and kill multiple citizens (like Bloody Sunday in Russia) over a number of years,

3. if millions of people suddenly get cold feet and decide to make a run on the banks and the military is forced to intervene,

4. if the military has to occupy a few more strange countries that many people in the West have never heard of, and ALL of the enlisted are forced to stay in these countries, beyond their enlistment contracts for more than 5 or 6 years,

5. if the United States suddenly finds herself with 50% (150 million+) people unemployed,

6. if the US finds herself 75% or more homeless,

...if one or more of the above happen over a period of years, I think that history has taught us what "the people" will do....and this includes the military, usually. When the majority becomes desperate, they will resort to desperate measures.

 

[PredFan]

If the military has to be called in, it could only be because the OWSers got too rowdy. In that case, the military would support the POTUS.

 

[mskafka]

If the military has to be called in, it could only be because the OWSers got too rowdy. In that case, the military would support the POTUS.

You have such optimism. I wish I shared it.

 

[Toome]

I don't know if this is the work of a troll or if some folks are genuinely that naive about the US military.

The US military is NOT in the business of enforcing domestic law. This is purely cop stuff. That's what Posse Comitatus is all about. IF riots and general disorder broke out, the military MAY be called on to help restore order, but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not its OWS, the Tea Party or convention of UFO Conspiracy Theorists. It's a matter of restoring order. It will take a helluva lot before we get to that point.

Lessons learned from the LA Riots in '92 was that even though the Guard was called and later federalized, and even though active duty US units were also involved, the military was very reluctant to use its authority. It referred matters to the local civilian authority whenever possible and was basically a show of force. In fact, soldiers did not use deadly force with very few exceptions, and even then attempted to shoot out tires or fire warning shots before having to kill a couple dumbasses who tried to take on trained shooters and ended up losing that bet big time with tight center-of-mass shot groups.

Whenever anyone tries to compare the US military with those of foreign countries, it reveals a general lack of knowledge of how our military works. Not trying to shoot darts here, just pointing out that the United States military is a very unique organization, and the attempts to compare our military's reactions to these scenarios with others is laughable.

 

[mskafka]

My post was "if" scenarios. These would be worst-case scenario issues; of the caliber that I would barricade myself in the house.

Yes, Posse Comitatus. I laughed out loud when I read "Inside Delta Force" (great book!) and the asshat psychiatrist asked the writer how he would carry out an assassination, as a trick.

When I posted, I said that these things would have to happen over a number of years, and many civilians would have to be killed. These would have to be out of the ordinary things continuously happening for something like the Russian or French Revolution to occur. Years of large number of people (military included) starving, would bring about some kind of revolution. Or maybe one large thing happening. But most people have enough sense not to do a bank run. The Great Depression would be enough incentive for most people not to do such. But then, we are not the same country that we were in the 20's, 30's, and 40's. So who knows...

If you're in the Airborne, I'm sure that you have an intimate knowledge of the US Military, and I won't doubt your word.

 

[Preius]

Constitutional Topic: Martial Law - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

I see....

Does that mean this section of the Declaration of Independence is wrong, Should I contact a Constitutional attorney for adivice. Someone with the credentials of.......lets say..... Barry Obama?
The Declaration of Independence

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,"

Just trying to get this clear. Maybe some military experts will contribute here.

You might as well contact Obama since he is the leader of your movement.

There is nothing Barry Obama would like more than to be the leader of the 99%. Unfortunately, Obama has pissed off his base big time, and this includes me.

During the debt ceiling talks Obama sold out the New Deal, New Frontier, and the Great Society in one move. He indicated he was willing to play poker and consider cuts in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. Democratic presidents never compromise the BIG 3. Last time the DNC sent me a fund raising letter, I wrote across it and sent back, "I do not donate to Republicans." The night Obama sold out the Big 3, I removed the special 2012 Obama bumper sticker sent by the DNC for DNC members, and from my Jeep. We put Obama in office, and he is not following instructions. Watch Obama out their campaigning for his JOBS legislation, his popularity is down the toilet with almost everyone.

There are members of the Democratic Party who would like to dump Obama in the primaries, and put Hillary Clinton up for 2012. I was Clinton before I was Obama.

The 99% is against both political parties and Wall Street, (ie; all financial capitols around the planet. It is a political blood bath over at the DNC. Loyal lifetime union members are telling the Democratic Party to fuck off, and are going into the streets with OWS. OWS has allowed them in, ONLY if they are participants, and do not take leadership roles.

Could their be a third party? I doubt it, this thing is already going international. OWS is way past the 2012 election the United States, the focus is on demonstrations in Greece and Rome. Europeans are dumping Euros and buying dollars. Americans are moving out of dollars into metals. I bought a little gold last week myself.

TODAY THE VATICAN ENDORSED OCCUPY WALL STREET. Occupy Wall Street: Vatican sides with anti-capitalist protesters in call for 'global economic authority' | Holy Post | National Post THE TRAIN IS LEAVING THE STATION.​

"VATICAN CITY — The Vatican called on Monday for the establishment of a “global public authority” and a “central world bank” to rule over financial institutions that have become outdated and often ineffective in dealing fairly with crises.

The document from the Vatican’s Justice and Peace department should please the “Occupy Wall Street” demonstrators and similar movements around the world who have protested against the economic downturn."

 

[Preius]

Preius, you're an idiot.

Some might agree with you on that, but I just love seeing the right run. It has already happened in this thread. The illusions of the right are again shattered. They are scared, and they drop the subject.

They preach, and they have never read the founding documents of our nation!

It is fun to watch them melt when the facts come out.

Today, the Vatican endorsed OWS, and conservatives are not posting. Let's see if they get their rocks back in a few days. Oh, yeah I am going to save this thread, the right is afraid of it. They ran without answering.

It is funny they are so shallow, but there is one I respect greatly, and can offer an expert level perspective. That of course is SFC Ollie who is well connected in national security. At least that is what the Dems down in Austin, Texas tell me. I bow to his expertise.

 

[Dr Grump]

Preius

You will have to excuse some of the conservative nimrods like Steph, which this board seems to attract. Some people around here believe that you must have one of two agenda's - lib or con. Anything in between or outside that perimeter, their brain has a meltdown....

 

[Preius]

the declaration of independence is not law.

So, you are saying the Declaration of Independence is not as much United States law as the U. S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights........if I understand you correctly.

I would need to see a link from a strong source supporting your point of view to accept that. After all I did link you to the direct quote in the Declaration of Independence. Please show me the courtesy.

Link to what? The Declaration is not law. Never has been. Or perhaps you can provide us a governing phrase or article in it that provides power, authority or law to this Government?

Provide me with link documentation that the U. S. Declaration of Independence is not a part of the law of the land along with the U. S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I already know you are wrong, I just want to see how you will respond. My guess, hit and run poster.

 

[Stephanie]

Preius

You will have to excuse some of the conservative nimrods like Steph, which this board seems to attract. Some people around here can't believe that you must have one of two agenda's - lib or con. Anything in between or outside that perimeter, their brain has a meltdown....

awww Dr.Grumpy, now you done gone an hurt my wittle fweelings. Haven't seen you around but it was good to see you come around just to post this..Anybody here could see he has been a major mouthpiece for the Ows movement and you might know that IF you had been around...but WHAT EVA..
Have a good one love.

 

[SFC Ollie]

This is, of course, nothing but a meaningless troll thread started by a predictable, repetitive, mentally impaired asswipe.

Most interesting, I quote the Declaration of Independence word for word and immediately receive accelerated name-calling. Very telling........

The OP of this thread is really quite simple. Is anyone having a problem understanding? Sometimes I tend to get a verbally complex.

Yes the Declaration of Independence did say that we had the right to overthrow the Government. And then the Constitution spelled out how we could legally do that.

The US military will support the US Constitution.