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I understand your point and it is a fine debate. I just think that hate groups are in a different league than minority and even political groups.How can you not, Slade? Either businesses have the right to refuse service or they don't. You can't have it both ways.People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
You are soooo ready for what?People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?For the past 10 years or so we had to hear from progressives how businesses were not private. How they belonged to the government and/or the public. How serving the public meant they had no right to refuse service.
Yet the past few days, progressives had drowned social media celebrating stories of businesses who "serve the public" denying Nazi and/or white supremacist groups service. One was a restaurant. The big news today was ISP and cloud services denying their services to a website called "Daily Stormer" (apparently some white supremacist site).
So what happened? When a business owner wanted to refuse service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs (fully protected by the U.S. Constitution), the left completely lost their shit. They insisted that it was "discrimination" and demanded that either the business be forced - at the barrel of a gun - to provide their products or services, or be run out of business.
And yet, when a business does the exact same thing to another group (for reasons not protected by the U.S. Constitution), all we hear from the fascists is "they have the right to refuse service".
This is what happens when views/ideologies are built from irrational emotion instead of logic and reason. There is an absurd contradiction and lack of consistency - which completely obliterates all credibility (hence the reason nobody takes the left seriously on anything).As usual with the double standards justificationPeople are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Discrimination is discrimination
Hate is hate
You can't silence or forbid one type of hatred,
and force through legalization, the tolerance of another!
Homosexuals hate being held to moral standards of decency
Homosexuality is not normal and no one or no law
will force me, nor convince me otherwise
I am so ecstatic the signs are all around us,
I am soooo ready!
You were sayingHere's Mr drama queen again claiming that liberals want socialism. Get a clue dude.There is no such thing privately owned business in socialists societies....
You are right there was hate on both sides that showed up with purpose. One group showed up to express hate for Jews, blacks and non whites, to push the message that they want to take their country back.... the other group showed up to cast hate on their racist message and stand up for American values. If you want to equal those two then go ahead but I'd be careful who you express that too because it isn't going to be received well by many.I understand your point and it is a fine debate. I just think that hate groups are in a different league than minority and even political groups.How can you not, Slade? Either businesses have the right to refuse service or they don't. You can't have it both ways.People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Mano decides what is and is not a hate group, and what would be considered hate speech? Not one person in any of these threads has asked or stated what it would be. As it is now, say something another person don't like and it's hate. Sure, curb the rhetoric and maybe don't show up at a protest strapped up for a rumble. One thing for sure, last weekend America saw two hate groups come together and embarrass the country. They need to starte disavowing the same behavior To.
You are right there was hate on both sides that showed up with purpose. One group showed up to express hate for Jews, blacks and non whites, to push the message that they want to take their country back.... the other group showed up to cast hate on their racist message and stand up for American values. If you want to equal those two then go ahead but I'd be careful who you express that too because it isn't going to be received well by many.I understand your point and it is a fine debate. I just think that hate groups are in a different league than minority and even political groups.How can you not, Slade? Either businesses have the right to refuse service or they don't. You can't have it both ways.People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Mano decides what is and is not a hate group, and what would be considered hate speech? Not one person in any of these threads has asked or stated what it would be. As it is now, say something another person don't like and it's hate. Sure, curb the rhetoric and maybe don't show up at a protest strapped up for a rumble. One thing for sure, last weekend America saw two hate groups come together and embarrass the country. They need to starte disavowing the same behavior To.
The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.Yes and no. Yes they should allow equal expression of beliefs as they want for their own beliefs. No, neither should get abusive about it.Let me see if I'm understanding your point correctly. You think the LGBT community should accept white supremacy and Nazis under the same premise that they expect to be accepted into society by Christians?People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?For the past 10 years or so we had to hear from progressives how businesses were not private. How they belonged to the government and/or the public. How serving the public meant they had no right to refuse service.
Yet the past few days, progressives had drowned social media celebrating stories of businesses who "serve the public" denying Nazi and/or white supremacist groups service. One was a restaurant. The big news today was ISP and cloud services denying their services to a website called "Daily Stormer" (apparently some white supremacist site).
So what happened? When a business owner wanted to refuse service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs (fully protected by the U.S. Constitution), the left completely lost their shit. They insisted that it was "discrimination" and demanded that either the business be forced - at the barrel of a gun - to provide their products or services, or be run out of business.
And yet, when a business does the exact same thing to another group (for reasons not protected by the U.S. Constitution), all we hear from the fascists is "they have the right to refuse service".
This is what happens when views/ideologies are built from irrational emotion instead of logic and reason. There is an absurd contradiction and lack of consistency - which completely obliterates all credibility (hence the reason nobody takes the left seriously on anything).
Dear Slade3200 Christians have also been persecuted historically. And now instead of just Christians rejecting gay politics, the LGBT as a collective movement have been harassing and calling for punishment of Christians for their beliefs.
The shoe is on the other foot.
This whole process is an exercise in the LGBT being put in the opposite position as before. When it's their turn to call for condemnation and ostracizing people who disagree with their beliefs, are they any more "inclusive" ? or just as fearful, angry and discriminatory?
A lesson in learning what it means for people to be equal. The same mistakes and damage the Christians are blamed for, now it's the Left's turn to act that way "out of good intentions" before they realize how and why this bullying happens they oppose so much when it happens to them!
Is that right?
The difference between race and orientation is race is genetically determined but orientation is faith based like someones religious affiliation. So these beliefs ppl have can't be regulated by govt. Nor can they be established or prohibited. If there is a conflict between ppl of different beliefs, the fair thing to do is either resolve it mutually or agree to separate. Govt should never be abused to establish or prohibit a faith based belief. Ppl need to work those out for themselves, not impose on or abuse each other so badly they end up whining to govt to break up a fist fight. Grow up and quit incitng fights to begin with. Then govt doesn't have to step in to a fight between kids that escalates until someone gets hurt. It's called growing up, and I'm surprised more ppl haven't figured it out yet. Gee whiz.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.Yes and no. Yes they should allow equal expression of beliefs as they want for their own beliefs. No, neither should get abusive about it.Let me see if I'm understanding your point correctly. You think the LGBT community should accept white supremacy and Nazis under the same premise that they expect to be accepted into society by Christians?People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Dear Slade3200 Christians have also been persecuted historically. And now instead of just Christians rejecting gay politics, the LGBT as a collective movement have been harassing and calling for punishment of Christians for their beliefs.
The shoe is on the other foot.
This whole process is an exercise in the LGBT being put in the opposite position as before. When it's their turn to call for condemnation and ostracizing people who disagree with their beliefs, are they any more "inclusive" ? or just as fearful, angry and discriminatory?
A lesson in learning what it means for people to be equal. The same mistakes and damage the Christians are blamed for, now it's the Left's turn to act that way "out of good intentions" before they realize how and why this bullying happens they oppose so much when it happens to them!
Is that right?
The difference between race and orientation is race is genetically determined but orientation is faith based like someones religious affiliation. So these beliefs ppl have can't be regulated by govt. Nor can they be established or prohibited. If there is a conflict between ppl of different beliefs, the fair thing to do is either resolve it mutually or agree to separate. Govt should never be abused to establish or prohibit a faith based belief. Ppl need to work those out for themselves, not impose on or abuse each other so badly they end up whining to govt to break up a fist fight. Grow up and quit incitng fights to begin with. Then govt doesn't have to step in to a fight between kids that escalates until someone gets hurt. It's called growing up, and I'm surprised more ppl haven't figured it out yet. Gee whiz.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
For the past 10 years or so we had to hear from progressives how businesses were not private. How they belonged to the government and/or the public. How serving the public meant they had no right to refuse service.
Yet the past few days, progressives had drowned social media celebrating stories of businesses who "serve the public" denying Nazi and/or white supremacist groups service. One was a restaurant. The big news today was ISP and cloud services denying their services to a website called "Daily Stormer" (apparently some white supremacist site).
So what happened? When a business owner wanted to refuse service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs (fully protected by the U.S. Constitution), the left completely lost their shit. They insisted that it was "discrimination" and demanded that either the business be forced - at the barrel of a gun - to provide their products or services, or be run out of business.
For the past 10 years or so we had to hear from progressives how businesses were not private. How they belonged to the government and/or the public. How serving the public meant they had no right to refuse service.
Except nobody actually ever said that. So as usual, you start out with a false premise.
Yet the past few days, progressives had drowned social media celebrating stories of businesses who "serve the public" denying Nazi and/or white supremacist groups service. One was a restaurant. The big news today was ISP and cloud services denying their services to a website called "Daily Stormer" (apparently some white supremacist site).
The question becomes, why is your movement embracing these people?
So what happened? When a business owner wanted to refuse service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs (fully protected by the U.S. Constitution), the left completely lost their shit. They insisted that it was "discrimination" and demanded that either the business be forced - at the barrel of a gun - to provide their products or services, or be run out of business.
Okay, nobody ever pointed a gun at someone. So you understand the legal issue, SOME states have rules that you can't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. Some don't. But the notion of public accommedation laws preventing discrimination is one that goes back to the 1960's, it's not a new or even a liberal idea.
There is, however, no such provision for radical political beliefs.
You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.Yes and no. Yes they should allow equal expression of beliefs as they want for their own beliefs. No, neither should get abusive about it.Let me see if I'm understanding your point correctly. You think the LGBT community should accept white supremacy and Nazis under the same premise that they expect to be accepted into society by Christians?Dear Slade3200 Christians have also been persecuted historically. And now instead of just Christians rejecting gay politics, the LGBT as a collective movement have been harassing and calling for punishment of Christians for their beliefs.
The shoe is on the other foot.
This whole process is an exercise in the LGBT being put in the opposite position as before. When it's their turn to call for condemnation and ostracizing people who disagree with their beliefs, are they any more "inclusive" ? or just as fearful, angry and discriminatory?
A lesson in learning what it means for people to be equal. The same mistakes and damage the Christians are blamed for, now it's the Left's turn to act that way "out of good intentions" before they realize how and why this bullying happens they oppose so much when it happens to them!
Is that right?
The difference between race and orientation is race is genetically determined but orientation is faith based like someones religious affiliation. So these beliefs ppl have can't be regulated by govt. Nor can they be established or prohibited. If there is a conflict between ppl of different beliefs, the fair thing to do is either resolve it mutually or agree to separate. Govt should never be abused to establish or prohibit a faith based belief. Ppl need to work those out for themselves, not impose on or abuse each other so badly they end up whining to govt to break up a fist fight. Grow up and quit incitng fights to begin with. Then govt doesn't have to step in to a fight between kids that escalates until someone gets hurt. It's called growing up, and I'm surprised more ppl haven't figured it out yet. Gee whiz.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
I actually agree with most of what you said and applaud your articulation. I just disagree when it comes to hate groups like the Nazi's, KKK, and White Supremacists. We've been down that road before. Nazi's gathered up Jews and cooked them in ovens and slaughtered them in the millions. The white Supremacists enslaved blacks and treated them like property, we fought a war over it. Following the war we had rebellion through the KKK and Jim Crow which resulted in segregation and blacks were lynched, forced to use different bathrooms and different schools etc. This happened until we finally had a civil rights revolution in the 60's. These are disgraceful times in our history that we have bled over and rejected from our society. We know where these hate groups are coming from and they type of society they are trying to promote. It leads to death.You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.Yes and no. Yes they should allow equal expression of beliefs as they want for their own beliefs. No, neither should get abusive about it.Let me see if I'm understanding your point correctly. You think the LGBT community should accept white supremacy and Nazis under the same premise that they expect to be accepted into society by Christians?
Is that right?
The difference between race and orientation is race is genetically determined but orientation is faith based like someones religious affiliation. So these beliefs ppl have can't be regulated by govt. Nor can they be established or prohibited. If there is a conflict between ppl of different beliefs, the fair thing to do is either resolve it mutually or agree to separate. Govt should never be abused to establish or prohibit a faith based belief. Ppl need to work those out for themselves, not impose on or abuse each other so badly they end up whining to govt to break up a fist fight. Grow up and quit incitng fights to begin with. Then govt doesn't have to step in to a fight between kids that escalates until someone gets hurt. It's called growing up, and I'm surprised more ppl haven't figured it out yet. Gee whiz.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
Dear Slade3200
Sorry but the LGBT groups only exist to impose their own beliefs and policies.
I even criticized Mustafaa Carroll of CAIR for only defending civil rights of Muslims.
He explained it's a full time job, and that is their focus. I understand that.
But going through legal process to defend one side over the other is still divisive and biased.
And that's what is causing the competition and bullying.
Christians truly believe they are teaching God's love when they mistakenly teach
the Bible where it leaves out Buddhists, nontheists, and others who are secular gentiles under natural laws.
They mean to teach "unconditional love" but if their message is biased it causes rejection division judgment and damage.
All groups need to learn to use their principles to INCLUDE all others.
And nobody is doing that. Even people call me a bigot and think I'm
racist or enabling to "include all groups" and beliefs under the Constitution.
Slade3200 all these people in all these groups think they are pursuing
the truth and fighting against evil that is destroying society, the nation the world.
They all believe they are defending equality from being oppressed by some unequal group leaving them out and seeking to destroy them.
Until we address and treat each person and each group equally,
this fingerpointing, scapegoating blame game is going to continue,
where each person like you wants to blame a DIFFERENT group or groups as the ones to blame
while EXCUSING a different group. So the fighting continues.
The key is to acknowledge that all these groups blame different ones.
So let's accept that. And work with that, REGARDLESS which people blame which groups more.
The true difference I ahve found Slade3200
is which people admit that all groups are blamed by somebody in the other groups.
And when we can admit that we are all blamed by somebody,
maybe we can deal with that equally regardless whose fault it is.
Let's fix it all anyway. Even if we don't agree who is more or less to blame for what!
I actually agree with most of what you said and applaud your articulation. I just disagree when it comes to hate groups like the Nazi's, KKK, and White Supremacists. We've been down that road before. Nazi's gathered up Jews and cooked them in ovens and slaughtered them in the millions. The white Supremacists enslaved blacks and treated them like property, we fought a war over it. Following the war we had rebellion through the KKK and Jim Crow which resulted in segregation and blacks were lynched, forced to use different bathrooms and different schools etc. This happened until we finally had a civil rights revolution in the 60's. These are disgraceful times in our history that we have bled over and rejected from our society. We know where these hate groups are coming from and they type of society they are trying to promote. It leads to death.You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.Yes and no. Yes they should allow equal expression of beliefs as they want for their own beliefs. No, neither should get abusive about it.
The difference between race and orientation is race is genetically determined but orientation is faith based like someones religious affiliation. So these beliefs ppl have can't be regulated by govt. Nor can they be established or prohibited. If there is a conflict between ppl of different beliefs, the fair thing to do is either resolve it mutually or agree to separate. Govt should never be abused to establish or prohibit a faith based belief. Ppl need to work those out for themselves, not impose on or abuse each other so badly they end up whining to govt to break up a fist fight. Grow up and quit incitng fights to begin with. Then govt doesn't have to step in to a fight between kids that escalates until someone gets hurt. It's called growing up, and I'm surprised more ppl haven't figured it out yet. Gee whiz.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
Dear Slade3200
Sorry but the LGBT groups only exist to impose their own beliefs and policies.
I even criticized Mustafaa Carroll of CAIR for only defending civil rights of Muslims.
He explained it's a full time job, and that is their focus. I understand that.
But going through legal process to defend one side over the other is still divisive and biased.
And that's what is causing the competition and bullying.
Christians truly believe they are teaching God's love when they mistakenly teach
the Bible where it leaves out Buddhists, nontheists, and others who are secular gentiles under natural laws.
They mean to teach "unconditional love" but if their message is biased it causes rejection division judgment and damage.
All groups need to learn to use their principles to INCLUDE all others.
And nobody is doing that. Even people call me a bigot and think I'm
racist or enabling to "include all groups" and beliefs under the Constitution.
Slade3200 all these people in all these groups think they are pursuing
the truth and fighting against evil that is destroying society, the nation the world.
They all believe they are defending equality from being oppressed by some unequal group leaving them out and seeking to destroy them.
Until we address and treat each person and each group equally,
this fingerpointing, scapegoating blame game is going to continue,
where each person like you wants to blame a DIFFERENT group or groups as the ones to blame
while EXCUSING a different group. So the fighting continues.
The key is to acknowledge that all these groups blame different ones.
So let's accept that. And work with that, REGARDLESS which people blame which groups more.
The true difference I ahve found Slade3200
is which people admit that all groups are blamed by somebody in the other groups.
And when we can admit that we are all blamed by somebody,
maybe we can deal with that equally regardless whose fault it is.
Let's fix it all anyway. Even if we don't agree who is more or less to blame for what!
You can take issue with LGBT advocates and their fights with religious groups. I like your approach on how to engage and believe inclusiveness and understanding is essential. I just see a clear separation between that situation and the situation we are talking about now with the hate groups.
I agree, but the wars have already been fought with this issue, right now we are dealing with the after effects and shutting down any momentum or uprising that they may be initiating. I don't think they have the numbers to do anything serious. The political issue that is making this thing so talked about is the fact that the way our president responded has produced an empowerment of these groups where they are thanking him and assuming that he is supporting their cause. It makes them stronger and that is just sick. Despite all that he stays silent about it while he goes off tweeting attacks at senators and CEO's. How embarrassing.I actually agree with most of what you said and applaud your articulation. I just disagree when it comes to hate groups like the Nazi's, KKK, and White Supremacists. We've been down that road before. Nazi's gathered up Jews and cooked them in ovens and slaughtered them in the millions. The white Supremacists enslaved blacks and treated them like property, we fought a war over it. Following the war we had rebellion through the KKK and Jim Crow which resulted in segregation and blacks were lynched, forced to use different bathrooms and different schools etc. This happened until we finally had a civil rights revolution in the 60's. These are disgraceful times in our history that we have bled over and rejected from our society. We know where these hate groups are coming from and they type of society they are trying to promote. It leads to death.You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
Dear Slade3200
Sorry but the LGBT groups only exist to impose their own beliefs and policies.
I even criticized Mustafaa Carroll of CAIR for only defending civil rights of Muslims.
He explained it's a full time job, and that is their focus. I understand that.
But going through legal process to defend one side over the other is still divisive and biased.
And that's what is causing the competition and bullying.
Christians truly believe they are teaching God's love when they mistakenly teach
the Bible where it leaves out Buddhists, nontheists, and others who are secular gentiles under natural laws.
They mean to teach "unconditional love" but if their message is biased it causes rejection division judgment and damage.
All groups need to learn to use their principles to INCLUDE all others.
And nobody is doing that. Even people call me a bigot and think I'm
racist or enabling to "include all groups" and beliefs under the Constitution.
Slade3200 all these people in all these groups think they are pursuing
the truth and fighting against evil that is destroying society, the nation the world.
They all believe they are defending equality from being oppressed by some unequal group leaving them out and seeking to destroy them.
Until we address and treat each person and each group equally,
this fingerpointing, scapegoating blame game is going to continue,
where each person like you wants to blame a DIFFERENT group or groups as the ones to blame
while EXCUSING a different group. So the fighting continues.
The key is to acknowledge that all these groups blame different ones.
So let's accept that. And work with that, REGARDLESS which people blame which groups more.
The true difference I ahve found Slade3200
is which people admit that all groups are blamed by somebody in the other groups.
And when we can admit that we are all blamed by somebody,
maybe we can deal with that equally regardless whose fault it is.
Let's fix it all anyway. Even if we don't agree who is more or less to blame for what!
You can take issue with LGBT advocates and their fights with religious groups. I like your approach on how to engage and believe inclusiveness and understanding is essential. I just see a clear separation between that situation and the situation we are talking about now with the hate groups.
I guess the main difference with me is I'm trying to PREVENT war, not rely on it.
The way this division and bullying goes, it makes it necessary to use war tactics.
If we are going to fully learn from history, we should be able to achieve
the same transformation but WITHOUT the bloodshed. We are a civilized
nation with democratic process protected for the people. Why the hell
can't we use our prized free speech to petition each other instead of resorting to physical force???
By saying homosexuality isn't normal is not keeping it real. Who made you the arbiter of what is normal.People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?For the past 10 years or so we had to hear from progressives how businesses were not private. How they belonged to the government and/or the public. How serving the public meant they had no right to refuse service.
Yet the past few days, progressives had drowned social media celebrating stories of businesses who "serve the public" denying Nazi and/or white supremacist groups service. One was a restaurant. The big news today was ISP and cloud services denying their services to a website called "Daily Stormer" (apparently some white supremacist site).
So what happened? When a business owner wanted to refuse service to homosexuals based on their religious beliefs (fully protected by the U.S. Constitution), the left completely lost their shit. They insisted that it was "discrimination" and demanded that either the business be forced - at the barrel of a gun - to provide their products or services, or be run out of business.
And yet, when a business does the exact same thing to another group (for reasons not protected by the U.S. Constitution), all we hear from the fascists is "they have the right to refuse service".
This is what happens when views/ideologies are built from irrational emotion instead of logic and reason. There is an absurd contradiction and lack of consistency - which completely obliterates all credibility (hence the reason nobody takes the left seriously on anything).As usual with the double standards justificationPeople are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Discrimination is discrimination
Hate is hate
You can't silence or forbid one type of hatred,
and force through legalization, the tolerance of another!
Homosexuals hate being held to moral standards of decency
Homosexuality is not normal and no one or no law
will force me, nor convince me otherwise
I am so ecstatic the signs are all around us,
I am soooo ready!
Jeezzzz
You were sayingHere's Mr drama queen again claiming that liberals want socialism. Get a clue dude.There is no such thing privately owned business in socialists societies....
You can cherry pick all you want. There are fringe activists on both sides. The fringe does not represent the masses.
So ... now you threaten?You are right there was hate on both sides that showed up with purpose. One group showed up to express hate for Jews, blacks and non whites, to push the message that they want to take their country back.... the other group showed up to cast hate on their racist message and stand up for American values. If you want to equal those two then go ahead but I'd be careful who you express that too because it isn't going to be received well by many.I understand your point and it is a fine debate. I just think that hate groups are in a different league than minority and even political groups.How can you not, Slade? Either businesses have the right to refuse service or they don't. You can't have it both ways.People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Mano decides what is and is not a hate group, and what would be considered hate speech? Not one person in any of these threads has asked or stated what it would be. As it is now, say something another person don't like and it's hate. Sure, curb the rhetoric and maybe don't show up at a protest strapped up for a rumble. One thing for sure, last weekend America saw two hate groups come together and embarrass the country. They need to starte disavowing the same behavior To.
Because you happen to agree with the goals of the core groups, you find them based in "love and equality", rather than diviseness and furthering one group over another. It is nonsensical to claim that the Muslim and LGBT groups are not interesting in advancing their agendas at the cost of others, just as can be said about the others.You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?The thing is Emily, we are not comparing to groups with a simple difference of opinion. We are talking about polar opposite situations. Gay rights is fighting for the right to LOVE who they want and live like a free citizen in their country. Nazis and WS's spread HATE SPEECH.Yes and no. Yes they should allow equal expression of beliefs as they want for their own beliefs. No, neither should get abusive about it.Let me see if I'm understanding your point correctly. You think the LGBT community should accept white supremacy and Nazis under the same premise that they expect to be accepted into society by Christians?Dear Slade3200 Christians have also been persecuted historically. And now instead of just Christians rejecting gay politics, the LGBT as a collective movement have been harassing and calling for punishment of Christians for their beliefs.
The shoe is on the other foot.
This whole process is an exercise in the LGBT being put in the opposite position as before. When it's their turn to call for condemnation and ostracizing people who disagree with their beliefs, are they any more "inclusive" ? or just as fearful, angry and discriminatory?
A lesson in learning what it means for people to be equal. The same mistakes and damage the Christians are blamed for, now it's the Left's turn to act that way "out of good intentions" before they realize how and why this bullying happens they oppose so much when it happens to them!
Is that right?
The difference between race and orientation is race is genetically determined but orientation is faith based like someones religious affiliation. So these beliefs ppl have can't be regulated by govt. Nor can they be established or prohibited. If there is a conflict between ppl of different beliefs, the fair thing to do is either resolve it mutually or agree to separate. Govt should never be abused to establish or prohibit a faith based belief. Ppl need to work those out for themselves, not impose on or abuse each other so badly they end up whining to govt to break up a fist fight. Grow up and quit incitng fights to begin with. Then govt doesn't have to step in to a fight between kids that escalates until someone gets hurt. It's called growing up, and I'm surprised more ppl haven't figured it out yet. Gee whiz.
Regulation of speech is not new. I can't post a billboard of an old naked guy next to an elementary school. I can't walk into a business and threaten/intimidate employees or other customers. In some places I can't sign at the top of my lungs after midnight and wake up all the neighbors.
Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
Sorry, you're wrong yet again.I agree, but the wars have already been fought with this issue, right now we are dealing with the after effects and shutting down any momentum or uprising that they may be initiating. I don't think they have the numbers to do anything serious. The political issue that is making this thing so talked about is the fact that the way our president responded has produced an empowerment of these groups where they are thanking him and assuming that he is supporting their cause. It makes them stronger and that is just sick. Despite all that he stays silent about it while he goes off tweeting attacks at senators and CEO's. How embarrassing.I actually agree with most of what you said and applaud your articulation. I just disagree when it comes to hate groups like the Nazi's, KKK, and White Supremacists. We've been down that road before. Nazi's gathered up Jews and cooked them in ovens and slaughtered them in the millions. The white Supremacists enslaved blacks and treated them like property, we fought a war over it. Following the war we had rebellion through the KKK and Jim Crow which resulted in segregation and blacks were lynched, forced to use different bathrooms and different schools etc. This happened until we finally had a civil rights revolution in the 60's. These are disgraceful times in our history that we have bled over and rejected from our society. We know where these hate groups are coming from and they type of society they are trying to promote. It leads to death.You make fair points and I agree with you for the most part. I don't think that crime should be excused by any group. The difference between the examples that you provided is the core mission of those 3 groups. The Muslim and LBGT groups have good core missions revolving around love and equality vs. their fringe extremists whose actions should be condemned. The Nazi's, KKK, and white supremacists have hateful, divisive, illegal and un-American core missions, to segregate, dispel and divide. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement that fought against those values. Their group as a whole is overwhelmingly condemned based on their core mission. The others are condemned when extremists take their protests too far and produce destruction and violence. Do you see the difference?Excuse me Slade3200 but we should make the same disinction:
* between peaceful Muslims who believe in peace and obeying civil authority laws and govt
vs. the inciteful violent Jihadists who seek to violate laws, discriminate and destroy illegally
* between lawabiding white supremacist and nationalists who believe in obeying laws to preserve European history and culture
vs. the violent criminal groups seeking to conspire to violate the civil rights of others
AND
* between the LGBT advocates seeking equality and inclusion
vs. the ones abusing party, media and govt to pass laws VIOLATING equal rights and beliefs of others.
If we want to credit the LGBT advocate for seeking inclusion and defense of equal rights
and NOT blame "that whole movement" for the LGBT defenders who BASH and SUE to REMOVE Christian references
from schools and public institutions while defending their own faith-based practices,
then we should make this same distinction with ALL groups.
Otherwise, we are guilty of discrimination and only
making this distinction for the groups we sympathize with, and not others.
I still work with all BLM supporters willing to work with me and others on common causes.
But if they keep dividing and refusing to work with ALM and other groups, that division is half their fault.
I can still work with LGBT activists willing to include and defend ALL beliefs under the same Constitution.
But Slade3200 when LGBT REFUSE to include former gays and DENOUNCE them as frauds,
when they BASH and BLAME Christians for their beliefs and seek to PENALIZE THEM BY LAW,
that is just as unconstitutional by discriminating by creed.
I've run into this over and over.
However, I am willing to distinguish the truly inclusive LGBT from the
ones preaching hatred, rejection and fear of Christianity.
But the way they reject and denounce any talk of people who once identified
gay, then came out as straight, this speaks to mass discrimination and hypocrisy on the side of LGBT in general.
Obama has problem with this sex-identity group
De Blasio’s wife Chirlane McCray talks about lesbian past
Dear Slade3200
Sorry but the LGBT groups only exist to impose their own beliefs and policies.
I even criticized Mustafaa Carroll of CAIR for only defending civil rights of Muslims.
He explained it's a full time job, and that is their focus. I understand that.
But going through legal process to defend one side over the other is still divisive and biased.
And that's what is causing the competition and bullying.
Christians truly believe they are teaching God's love when they mistakenly teach
the Bible where it leaves out Buddhists, nontheists, and others who are secular gentiles under natural laws.
They mean to teach "unconditional love" but if their message is biased it causes rejection division judgment and damage.
All groups need to learn to use their principles to INCLUDE all others.
And nobody is doing that. Even people call me a bigot and think I'm
racist or enabling to "include all groups" and beliefs under the Constitution.
Slade3200 all these people in all these groups think they are pursuing
the truth and fighting against evil that is destroying society, the nation the world.
They all believe they are defending equality from being oppressed by some unequal group leaving them out and seeking to destroy them.
Until we address and treat each person and each group equally,
this fingerpointing, scapegoating blame game is going to continue,
where each person like you wants to blame a DIFFERENT group or groups as the ones to blame
while EXCUSING a different group. So the fighting continues.
The key is to acknowledge that all these groups blame different ones.
So let's accept that. And work with that, REGARDLESS which people blame which groups more.
The true difference I ahve found Slade3200
is which people admit that all groups are blamed by somebody in the other groups.
And when we can admit that we are all blamed by somebody,
maybe we can deal with that equally regardless whose fault it is.
Let's fix it all anyway. Even if we don't agree who is more or less to blame for what!
You can take issue with LGBT advocates and their fights with religious groups. I like your approach on how to engage and believe inclusiveness and understanding is essential. I just see a clear separation between that situation and the situation we are talking about now with the hate groups.
I guess the main difference with me is I'm trying to PREVENT war, not rely on it.
The way this division and bullying goes, it makes it necessary to use war tactics.
If we are going to fully learn from history, we should be able to achieve
the same transformation but WITHOUT the bloodshed. We are a civilized
nation with democratic process protected for the people. Why the hell
can't we use our prized free speech to petition each other instead of resorting to physical force???
You were sayingHere's Mr drama queen again claiming that liberals want socialism. Get a clue dude.There is no such thing privately owned business in socialists societies....
You can cherry pick all you want. There are fringe activists on both sides. The fringe does not represent the masses.
I assume then that you propose that the "fringe" on either side deserve exactly the same treatment.
What was my threat?So ... now you threaten?You are right there was hate on both sides that showed up with purpose. One group showed up to express hate for Jews, blacks and non whites, to push the message that they want to take their country back.... the other group showed up to cast hate on their racist message and stand up for American values. If you want to equal those two then go ahead but I'd be careful who you express that too because it isn't going to be received well by many.I understand your point and it is a fine debate. I just think that hate groups are in a different league than minority and even political groups.How can you not, Slade? Either businesses have the right to refuse service or they don't. You can't have it both ways.People are standing up to groups and individuals that spread hate speech and who are widely condemned by every leader in our country including Trump. How can you compare that to an oppressed minority group like homosexuals?
Mano decides what is and is not a hate group, and what would be considered hate speech? Not one person in any of these threads has asked or stated what it would be. As it is now, say something another person don't like and it's hate. Sure, curb the rhetoric and maybe don't show up at a protest strapped up for a rumble. One thing for sure, last weekend America saw two hate groups come together and embarrass the country. They need to starte disavowing the same behavior To.
