'Palestinian'

Discussion in 'Israel and Palestine' started by abu afak, Jun 10, 2011.

  1. Douger
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    Douger BANNED

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    None of this follows the script.
    Go get the script and focus closely on The Chosen going back Home to IsNtReal.
    You're going to make your masters mad with this rhetoric.
     
  2. docmauser1
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    docmauser1 Gold Member

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    Monsanto research suggested DDT was harmless too, of course.
     
  3. peach174
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    peach174 Gold Member Gold Supporting Member Supporting Member

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    Until Palestinians acknowledge the right to live for Israeli's nothing is going to be solved.
     
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  4. abu afak
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    abu afak ALLAH SNACKBAR!

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    Zionism was 100 Year old Nationalist revival Movement of the Jews. Reviving one of 3200 years and existed for 1400 years,
    'Palestinianism' was NOT.
    Not only did they Not accept the partition creating 'Palestine' in 1948, but for 20 years subsequent the land was Annexed by Jordan and there was NO 'Palestine' nor even really 'palestinians',
    as Arabs never really bought that crap until about the time they lost the WB to Israel in the 1967 War. Otherwise there would still be passport-carrying Jordanians.
    Jordan is 70% 'Palestinian' (whatever that is) as it's Queen.
    In fact, in 'Black September' (1970), Arafat & co. tried to Make Jordan the Palestinian state it is/was by overthrowing King Hussein.
    But they lost-- and it was back to 'Israel' and wanting the West Bank which was renounced in the 1964 PLO Charter.


    Very Little between American and Canadian.. perhaps except Shared 300+ years histories of each.
    Much bigger between Americans and Mexicans who are a different ethnicity/language/culture (which is why you Didn't make THAT comparison) and part of whose Land we Americans now sit.
    Jews are Just Jews, while Arabs have 22 states, many arbitrarily bordered by the Ottoman Break up.
    'Iraqis', 'Jordanians', 'Palestinians' were conqueror constructs, NOT peoples.
    Re-read what you quoted.
    Of course people only whine about one tiny part of this giant allocation in which Arabs were the big winners.

    And they, those local-and-Transient-left-over-non-Jordan-arabs got/were offered the vast majority of the Land.
    The Jews only got 13% of British Mandate 'Palestine'.
    Jordan (Given to a Hashemite SAUDI Prince as spoils) was/is 77%; 'Palestine 10%. Meaning Arabs/Palestinians got 87% of the Mandate.
    And Half of the Jews 13% was the thought-useless Negev Desert. (and 2/3 including the Half of Israel that is the Negev Desert was Ottoman/British STATE LAND, owned by NO Arab)

    It does but only now. But let's not kid ourselves about "some great country called Palestine being overrun by the Jews".
    What makes a 'people' is Culture, Language, Ethnicity/Race, shared History, etc and they know it.
    Jews know they are a people. Tibetans, Mongols, Turks, Kurds... and Arabs. (Nicht Palestinians, until lately)

    Continuing...
    Jews only have and have had only/"Just" One national movement, Zionism/Israel for 3200 years.
    Arabs are indeed a People. Thus Pan-Arabism.
    'Palestinian' like 'Jordanian' (or 'Iraqi') Not so historically.
    And Arabs under various new, made-up, misgrouped (ie 'Iraq'), and old names got 99% of the Ottoman Break up.

    The problem, as you unwitting quoted above, was they wanted 100%.
    But Arabs overall did very well in the Break-up. Perhaps ruling 110% of their 'original Range'.
    The only real loser the Larger True People (Culture, Language, Ethicity) KURDS.
    But you don't here much about that, and certainly You aren't/haven't going to make an issue of that.
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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  5. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore Diamond Member

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    Britain administered Palestine it did not take possession.

     
  6. abu afak
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    abu afak ALLAH SNACKBAR!

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    Tinhead.
    This is how it's done.
    You don't have to 'quote' my whole comprehensive post to add your Dumb 8 words.
    One assumes you are responding to the post immediately above.
    (altho I could quote you here, but only because of page change/continuity)

    If unlikely, someone should intervene in between then you can edit in the quote.
    Quoting a Long Muliquote reply you are Not going to do the same with is a giant waste of space and makes the string needlessly long and UNREADABLE.
    Got it Tinhead?

    Many boards wisely only quote the post of one/last poster--preventing the 6 or 8 quote-within-quote-within-quote disasters here.
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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  7. docmauser1
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    docmauser1 Gold Member

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    Then Jordan is "palestine" for all intents and purposes, a palistani vaterland to drum and trumpet a return to, that is, because the flag is the jordanian al Urdun, adopted in 1928, while the palistanian das plagiat rag flag originates in 1994.
     
  8. Epsilon Delta
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    Epsilon Delta Jedi Master

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    You seem to have entirely missed the point. =/ But I'll go through it again anyway.

    Again, the main point of this is LAND. Palestinians are linguistically and culturally "Arab" peoples, the key point of their identity is the fact that they or their ancestors lived in the region of historic Palestine. All that you can claim is that they're "just Arabs," which is false and, frankly, stupid - a Yemeni is an Arab too, so is a Moroccan, yet they're not the same, and they live thousands of miles from each other. Again, someone from Canada might have the exact same language, exact same skin color, exact same white anglo-protestant ethno-religious background as someone from the US, it doesn't give anybody the right to come to Canada and cleanse it because "they're the same as Americas [according to me]." What separates a Canadian from an American is the fact that one LIVES in the LAND of Canada and another LIVES in the LAND of America, hence they subscribe to different national identities and are not the same - a Canadian does not consider himself an American, just like Palestinians don't consider themselves Iraqis. Even WITHIN countries the culture varies - New York has a different "culture" from Texas, even if they both share American culture.

    And just because America became a country 200 years ago but most Arab countries became countries 70 years ago doesn't make a difference, unless you're willing to sit down now and explain to everyone here at what arbitrary point in time (in years) does an identity become "legitimate" enough for you - is it 20 years? 40 years? 200 years? 2000 years? And WHY?

    That half of Jordan identifies itself as Palestinian is, again, irrelevant. Most Jews live in the US, so I guess Israel is not needed right? Or what, is it because it's not ruled by Jews that it's not appropriate? Neither is Jordan, so I guess it's not appropriate either. That is, if we're being honest and holding everyone to the same standard.

    Don't see the relevance. Explain.

    Nearly every country in the world today, including most of the Americas, Africa, and Oceania are based on conqueror constructs thanks to a history of imperialism and colonialism. There is absolutely no "ethnic" differences between New Zealanders and Australians and Britons and Canadians, yet they're not all the same [again] or any less legitimate. In reality, all borders are illegitimate arbitrary creations that don't follow any real logic, but that is the way the world is ordered and hence the reality we have to deal with. I don't know if you have ever seen a map of the US, but there's a suspiciously long straight line running from the great lakes to the pacific that surely respects no ethnic, linguistic, or cultural divisions and resulted from the US bargaining with Britain, and is the only reason people in norther Minnesota and N Dakota today aren't Canadian. That's the way it is and it doesn't make it any more or less legitimate. The fact is that TODAY Iraqis, Jordanians, and Palestinians are people, specifically Arab people who live in the land spaces that today are called those names, no different from any other country.

    This is exactly what I'm talking about. The British Mandate of Palestine itself was entirely arbitrarily constructed in the 1920s by a caretaker colonial administration. During Ottoman times what is now Jordan was entirely a different province and what is now Israel/OPTs were separated into three or four Ottoman Seljuks, all of which had a huge majority of Arabs and only a tiny percentage of Jews. And that's what the point is - whether they were there, they LIVED there, not in Algeria or in Kuwait, but THERE. That's why they're not "just Arabs." That's why Israelis are not "just Jews" anymore, because they live THERE.

    That's why it's irrelevant how you frame it, what it comes down to is advocating ethnic cleansing: you want to claim that there is no such thing as palestinians so that you can legitimize your belief that Israel is justified in kicking every Palestinian out of where they've always lived and their ancestors lived because they're "just Arabs" and so they can go live in any other Arab place. Until you go ahead and explain that this would be legitimate for any other country - that anybody can walk into Austria because theyre "just Germans" or that anybody can take over Singapore because they're "just Chinese" we know that you're just fulfilling the role of a propagandist for one side's violence.

    No, actually they're not, by YOUR own arbitrary standards they would not qualify as a people for most of the past 2000 years. This is just sad. By your own arbitrary definition of what makes a "people", not mine (I don't have one, I'm so naive that I assume that when millions of people define themselves as something, I should be inclined to believe them).

    Jews did not have the same language until the 1900s. Hebrew was a dead language only used for liturgical purposes, just like Latin, for over 1500 years. The vast majority of Jews did not speak Hebrew. Jews are not all of the same race or ethnicity - there's Slavic Jews, Western European Jews, Black Ethiopian Jews, Arab Jews. They did not have a shared history - there was a hugely spread out diaspora living all over the world with their own individual histories - and there still are to a degree. That's why all your "parameters" are useless. The only relevant thing is that Jews KNOW they are a people. Hence, they are a people - like Palestinians feel that they are a people. Whether they speak different languages, have different histories, or are of different races is entirely irrelevant.

    "Arabs" got countries where they lived under Ottoman rule. Turks got Turkey, where they lived. The Kurds did get screwed over, but at least they're still where they lived, not getting bulldozed out of their land anymore. Again, what happened elsewhere is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

    What is relevant is that the Arabs of historic Palestine, today known as Palestinians, wanted 100% because they basically were 100% until mass immigration of Jews began in the 1920s; their population began doubling every 10 years, it began to be overrun by Jews basically. Even in 48, Jews were only a third of the population, and they also wanted 100%.

    I think most people, Israelis and Jews, know they will not have 100%. But those that do on either side, regardless of all the false justifications they can give, whether you with your "palestinians aren't real" or "palestinians don't deserve to live there" or people on the other side with their "Jews aren't real" or "Jews stole all the land so they must be driven out" - it's pathetic. They can see very clearly the other sides terrible propositions, but cannot come to terms with the fact that they're advocating the same exact thing. It's called ethnic cleansing. Both sides propose it, both are wrong. Everything else is just a veil to justify it - there is no justification for it, so stop trying.

    Sure that Kurds are a people. I'm not going to deny that. If Kurds want a state, they should have one, Britain should've carved a Kurdish state. If they wanted to separate from Iraq/Turkey/Syria/Iran, I'd be all for it, and if they were oppressed (as they have been for ages by all of those regimes) I'll be the first to condemn it. This thread isn't about Kurds though. Feel free to make one and I'll go right to it.
     
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  9. P F Tinmore
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    P F Tinmore Diamond Member

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    Epsilon Delta.

    Well said.
     
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  10. mudwhistle
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    mudwhistle Diamond Member

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    Isn't Palestine derived from Philistine?
     

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