abu afak
ALLAH SNACKBAR!
- Mar 3, 2006
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I not only didn't miss the point I refuted you Thoroughly.Epsilon Delta said:You seem to have entirely missed the point. =/ But I'll go through it again anyway.
Thus below salvage attempt.. which doesn't answer my posts directly and deflects/mischaracterizes their cogent portions
Good.E-D said:Again, the main point of this is LAND. Palestinians are linguistically and culturally "Arab" peoples,
now you have been TAUGHT what a 'people' is. But you unwittingly impeached yourself.
Of course I compared their arbitrariness with Jordanians and other closer groups, Not Moroccans. You, of course CANNOT handle/quote that distinction/non-distinctionE-D said:the key point of their identity is the fact that they or their ancestors lived in the region of historic Palestine. All that you can claim is that they're "just Arabs," which is false and, frankly, stupid - a Yemeni is an Arab too, so is a Moroccan, yet they're not the same, and they live thousands of miles from each other...
Further
One could in fact argue Gazans are closer to Egyptians than fellow WB 'palestinians'.Palestine inhabited by a Mixed population
The "Chauvinist Arab version of history," then--so important to the current claim of "Palestinian" rights to "Arab Palestine," which Arab Palestinians PURPORTEDLY inhabited for "Thousands of years" --omits several relevant, situation-altering facts.
History did not begin with the Arab conquest in the seventh century.
The people whose nation was destroyed by the Romans were the Jews.
There were no Arab Palestinians then -- not until 700 years later would an Arab rule prevail, and then Briefly. And not by people known as "Palestinians." The short Arab rule would be reigning over Christians and Jews, who had been there to languish under various other foreign conquerors, -- Roman, Byzantine, Persian, to name just three in the centuries between the Roman and Arab conquests. The peoples who conquered under the banner of the invading Arabians from the desert were often hired mercenaries who remained on the land as soldiers -- not Arabians, but others who were enticed by the promise of the booty of conquest.
From the time the Arabians, along with their non-Arabian recruits, entered Palestine and Syria, they found and themselves added to what was "ethnologically a chaos of all the possible human combinations to which, when Palestine became a land of pilgrimage, a new admixture was added."1 Among the peoples who have been counted as "indigenous Palestinian Arabs" are Balkans, Greeks, Syrians, Latins, Egyptians, Turks, Armenians, Italians, Persians, Kurds, Germans, Afghans, Circassians, Bosnians, Sudanese, Samaritans, Algerians, Motawila, and Tartars.John of Wurzburg lists for the middle era of the kingdom, Latins, Germans, Hungarians, Scots, Navarese, Bretons, English, Franks, Ruthenians, Bohemians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Georgians, Armenians, Syrians, Persian Nestorians, Indians,Egyptians, Copts, Maronites and natives from the Nile Delta. The list might be much extended, for it was the period of the great self-willed city-states in Europe, and Amalfi, Pisans, Genoese, Venetians, and Marseillais, who had quarters in all the bigger cities, owned villages, and had trading rights, would, in all probability, have submitted to any of the above designations, only under pressure. Besides all these, Norsemen, Danes, Frisians, Tartars, Jews, Arabs, Russians, Nubians, and Samaritans, can be safely added to the greatest human agglomeration drawn together in one small area of the globe."2Greeks fled the Muslim rule in Greece, and landed in Palestine.
By the mid-17 century, the Greeks lived everywhere in the Holy Land--constituting about 20% of the population-and their authority dominated the villages.3Between 1750 and 1766 Jaffa had been rebuilt, and had some 500 houses. Turks, Arabs, Greeks and Armenians and a solitary Latin monk lived there, to attend to the wants of the thousands of pilgrims who had to be temporarily housed in the port before proceeding to Jerusalem.4"In some cases villages [in Palestine] are populated wholly by settlers from other portions of the Turkish Empire within the 19th century. There are villages of Bosnians, Druzes, Circassians and Egyptians," one historian has reported. 5
Another source, the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1911 edition (before the "more chauvinist Arab history" began to prevail with the encouragement of the British), finds the "population" of Palestine composed of so "widely differing" a group of "inhabitants" -- whose "ethnological affinities" create "early in the 20th century a list of no less than 50 languages" (see below) -- that "it is therefore no easy task to write concisely ... on the ethnology of Palestine."
In addition to the "Assyrian, Persian and Roman" elements of ancient times, "the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages.". . . There are very Large contingents from the Mediterranean countries, especially Armenia, Greece and Italy . . . Turkoman settlements ... a number of Persians and a fairly large Afghan colony . . . Motawila ... long settled immigrants from Persia ... tribes of Kurds ... German "Templar" colonies ... a Bosnian colony ... and the Circassian settlements placed in certain centres ... by the Turkish government in order to keep a restraint on the Bedouin ... a large Algerian element in the population ... still maintain(s) [while] the Sudanese have been reduced in numbers since the beginning of the 20th century.In the late 18th century, 3,000 Albanians recruited by Russians were settled in Acre.
The Encyclopaedia Britannica finds "most interesting all the non-Arab communities in the country . . . the Samaritan sect in Nablus (Shechem); a gradually disappearing body" once "settled by the Assyrians to occupy the land left waste by the captivity of the Kingdom of Israel."6
The Disparate peoples recently assumed and purported to be "settled Arab indigenes, for a thousand years" were in fact a "Heterogeneous" community 7 With NO "Palestinian" identity, and according to an official British historical analysis in 1920, NO Arab identity either:
"The people west of the Jordan are Not Arabs, but Only Arabic-speaking. The bulk of the population are fellahin.... In the Gaza district they are mostly of Egyptian origin; elsewhere they are of the most mixed race." 8
Palestine inhabited by a mixed population
What? :^)E-D said:Again, someone from Canada might have the exact same language, exact same skin color, exact same white anglo-protestant ethno-religious background as someone from the US, it doesn't give anybody the right to come to Canada and cleanse it because "they're the same as Americas [according to me]."
Get a grip. We're not talking about "cleansing", we're talking about what makes a people.
You want to try the 'Cleansing' slander-- try another string.
Hint: it won't work either.
The main thing that separates American from Canadian, AS I SAID, is 300+ years of different history AS peoples.E-D said:What separates a Canadian from an American is the fact that one LIVES in the LAND of Canada and another LIVES in the LAND of America, hence they subscribe to different national identities and are not the same - a Canadian does not consider himself an American, just like Palestinians don't consider themselves Iraqis. Even WITHIN countries the culture varies - New York has a different "culture" from Texas, even if they both share American culture.
NO such difference between 'Jordanians' and 'palestinians'. No Cultural or lingual difference either.
And one notes you don't know/haven't absorbed Both Jordan (77% of the Mandate, and Iraq) were both given To Saudi/Hashemite Princes as spoils. (STOLEN) The former.. er.. 'Palestinian' land.
Where's your indignence?
Having to bring in Moroccans just shows the weakness of your position.
This would be true (ooops) if there was ONE Arabia instead of many bogus countries, but is NOT true of the fake mini-constructs resulting from Ottoman break up.E-D said:And just because America became a country 200 years ago but most Arab countries became countries 70 years ago doesn't make a difference, unless you're willing to sit down now and explain to everyone here at what arbitrary point in time (in years) does an identity become "legitimate" enough for you - is it 20 years? 40 years? 200 years? 2000 years? And WHY?
Iraqis, Jordanians, Palestinians have no shared sense of Individualness/History/Raison. Americans did at the time of the Constitution.
The defeat of the Ottomans just left a lot of Sheikdoms/Emirates/Tribes and a few kingdoms. Only the latter close to a 'people' or Nation. UNLIKE Zionists.
I said 70% NOT half. Dishonest quote.E-D said:That half of Jordan identifies itself as Palestinian is, again, irrelevant. Most Jews live in the US, so I guess Israel is not needed right? Or what, is it because it's not ruled by Jews that it's not appropriate? Neither is Jordan, so I guess it's not appropriate either. That is, if we're being honest and holding everyone to the same standard.
And a laughable point/NOT analogous since Jews are claiming the USA as a Second state.
Quite right. That's because there was NO existing Nationalist Peoples ready form a country. Thus a Mandate period was needed for the area's Arabs to be divided. UNLIKE the Zionists.E-D said:This is exactly what I'm talking about. The British Mandate of Palestine itself was entirely arbitrarily constructed in the 1920s by a caretaker colonial administration.
That's "Sanjaks" NOT "Seljuks"E-D said:During Ottoman times what is now Jordan was entirely a different province and what is now Israel/OPTs were separated into three or four Ottoman Seljuks, all of which had a huge majority of Arabs and only a tiny percentage of Jews..
Seljuks were a 1000 year old Islamic (Turkish) Dynasty.
LOL.
and as explained in my last. Jews only got a Tiny percent of the land. (13% of Mandate of which half was desert/ and 1% of Ottomania)
And unlike their neighbors Jordan and [rejected] palestine, Jews were expected (and do) share their land even though a majority in it as of of 1947. (thus it's borders)
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