Open letter to the people of Spain

[Scourge]

okay then. So you have no proof. You have ridiculous circumstantial evidence that agrees completely with my statements on this issue. Posting IP addresses wil proove my coworker and I work IN THE SAME OFFICE. As I mentioned before, I told some people I work with about this board. One of them logged on, he was a muslim dude (if you couldn't tell) and he told me AFTERWARDS he was on the board. no, his real name is not The truth hurts. Nor is mine 'Scourge'. I emailed quickly and told you of the situation. You accused him of lying (fair enough). I haven't lied. I have one ID.

And DMP, read the posts we've been typing! He backed off of my argument to talk some garbage that isn't even true. I have invited arguments repeatedly. From Jimnyc and anyone. Bring it on if you have any.

I don't think I am always correct, and I do learn from debating some people here (Wonderwench, rwa, gop_jeff, etc) but its about issues, chatting about politics and world events. Not this gradeschool shite.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by Scourge
As I mentioned before, I told some people I work with about this board. One of them logged on, he was a muslim dude (if you couldn't tell) and he told me AFTERWARDS he was on the board.

And he just happened to end up in the very thread you were debating in to back up your assertions. And he also quickly denied knowing who you are.

You both claimed to not know one another, nor one anothers ID's. Yet you expect us to believe it's just a coincidence that he ended up patting you on the back?

Your either a liar or using multiple ID's. In my book, that kills your credibility either way.

 

[Scourge]

This is the last I'll say on this ridiculous and false idea.
I didn't know who 'the truth hurts' was until he said, hey man I'm on the board now. And told me his handle. I think my first or second email to you said as much. I have all I can handle with this ID, I cannot even fathom any reason to have two IDs. When I agree with Bullypulpit, or DKSuddeth, does that suddenly make everyone believe them? Having 2 IDs would really serve NO purpose. I don't have time to log in and out with IDs or whatever, anyhow. Sure my coworker and I agree on some things, but disagree on most things (religion, he's muslim, I'm atheist). So relax.

I appreciate your energetic witch hunt, but find someone WITH TWO IDs and maybe you'll have a point. As you probably know, he (truth) gave up on this board, but if your goal is truly to attack those that have 2 IDs and not just harass me, then stop. I have one ID. I have only ever had one ID. I will only ever have one ID. Go back and read his posts, he knows all that middle east shit because he's Muslim, I don't, I am more left-wing liberal, he's more die-hard islam. Enough is enough, man.

 

[jimnyc]

Ok, you won't read another thing from me about it.

 

[kcmcdonald]

man a perfectly good thread ruined. damn i always get in these things too late.

anyway my 2 cents,

the spanish populus has just given AQ a bigger gun to shot with. Now wait Europe, Athens will for sure be targeted. Hell if all of Europe abandons the war it will just be the US against world opion, not that big of deal if GW is in office but a big problem in JK is in office. sweet now there will be an attack in the US before november. And JK will sweep into office and the repos will be knocked out of power. Then OBL will have no country to attack him and now he will bide his time till NK or some other country,mabey Iran will sell this guy a Nuke. Then we will have a million dead not just a couple thousand. Thanks spain you really dropped the ball on this one. Folks let this be a lesson, the only good defence is a better offence. We must kill these people before they kill us. because they have no peace in thier vocabulary, all they have is hate and dealth, they've been fighting this kind of war for almost 20 years now, we've been fighting it for 3.
I remember a qoute I heard OBL say to Dan Rather back in the 90's.
Vietnam taught us that america was able to fight a cold war but the population was unable to fight a real war.(paraphrase, but that's the jist of what he said) Well looks like he was right about spain, there populus can't fight a war were people die. They can point nukes at russia for a hundered years, but as soon as they get attacke dthey quit. America can't afford this fate, which is why JK must not be elected and the war must continue at all costs. For thoses who say AQ and Iraq are not linked look at Madrid and look what a scared populus will do. It will not fight, it will run. Europe has this problem, They avoid a fight till it's to late then ask america to come in and solve it. Not this time, america will stop this before it becomes a really big problem.
Thank God for the courage of Pres Bush, PM Tony Blair, and all other leaders of the coaltion of the willing. Because these men understand that it is a high price to fight this war now, but it will be a higher price to gight it latter.

Bush in '04

 

[smellthecoffee]

Originally posted by jimnyc


The message you sent to al-Qaida yesterday was clear: "Please don't threaten us; please don't kill our people; we'll do what you want us to do."

sounds like Reagan selling illegal arms to Iran through Ollie North.
Why did the US President give in to terrorists?

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee

Originally posted by jimnyc


The message you sent to al-Qaida yesterday was clear: "Please don't threaten us; please don't kill our people; we'll do what you want us to do."

sounds like Reagan selling illegal arms to Iran through Ollie North.
Why did the US President give in to terrorists?

If you learned to read and/or use the search feature above you would find that these ridiculous questions have been asked an answered many, many times already.

 

[smellthecoffee]

why bother participating at a site dedicated to debate if you are scared of questions? you should just surf neo-con sites and chant USA...USA... Ths was another of your famous duck the issue stances. No answers. face it, you can't offer any defence. Reagan secretly dealt arms to Iran..FACT. More lies from the Govt.
Tell me it didn't happen! US & UK armed Saddam... FACT!
Tell me we didn't. You republicans love to engage in selective amnesia! Your credibility is shot to pieces. This isn't a discussion board this is a conservative orgy. The fact that it is moderated by the most inflamatory propagandists present illustrates it's partisan basis. Well in November, just like in Spain, the people will rain down thier judgement on this illegal war and the lies of this illiterate puppet President and his staff of corporate fat cats.
life is about to change Jim.

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee
why bother participating at a site dedicated to debate if you are scared of questions? you should just surf neo-con sites and chant USA...USA... Ths was another of your famous duck the issue stances. No answers. face it, you can't offer any defence. Reagan secretly dealt arms to Iran..FACT. More lies from the Govt.
Tell me it didn't happen! US & UK armed Saddam... FACT!
Tell me we didn't. You republicans love to engage in selective amnesia! Your credibility is shot to pieces. This isn't a discussion board this is a conservative orgy. The fact that it is moderated by the most inflamatory propagandists present illustrates it's partisan basis. Well in November, just like in Spain, the people will rain down thier judgement on this illegal war and the lies of this illiterate puppet President and his staff of corporate fat cats.
life is about to change Jim.

Nobody is denying anything.

Yes, the US sold arms to both Iran and Iraq. It was also a paltry amount compared to other countries contributions. Look into what Russia, China & France sold them. The US sold them 1% of their total arms. I also believe the reasoning for assisting them at the time was valid.

However, none of this in any way invalidates the actions of the US against Saddam and his regime this time around. Times have changed and people have changed.

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee
The fact that it is moderated by the most inflamatory propagandists present illustrates it's partisan basis.

Show me where I have been imflamatory.

 

[OCA]

What was the end result of Reagan selling arms to Iran? Do you know the answer?

 

[jimnyc]

And speaking of 'shady' things going on with Iraq in the past, here's a little reading about those who opposed our intervention:

France

-According to the CIA World Factbook, France controls over 22.5 percent of Iraq’s imports.[1] French total trade with Iraq under the oil-for-food program is the third largest, totaling $3.1 billion since 1996, according to the United Nations.[2] In 2001 France became Iraq’s largest European trading partner.
-Roughly 60 French companies do an estimated $1.5 billion in trade with Baghdad annually under the U.N. oil-for-food program.[3]
-France’s largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated a deal to develop the Majnoon field in western Iraq. The Majnoon field purportedly contains up to 30 billion barrels of oil.[4]
-Total Fina Elf also negotiated a deal for future oil exploration in Iraq’s Nahr Umar field. Both the Majnoon and Nahr Umar fields are estimated to contain as much as 25 percent of the country’s reserves.[5]
-France’s Alcatel company, a major telecom firm, is negotiating a $76 million contract to rehabilitate Iraq’s telephone system.[6]
-From 1981 to 2001, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), France was responsible for over 13 percent of Iraq’s arms imports.[7]

Germany

-Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[8]
-It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany’s “firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.” It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[9]
-During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[10]
-In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[11]
-German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein’s Al Fao Supercannon project.[12]

Russia

-According to the CIA World Factbook, Russia controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports.[13] Under the U.N. oil-for-food program, Russia’s total trade with Iraq was somewhere between $530 million and $1 billion for the six months ending in December of 2001.[14]
-According to the Russian Ambassador to Iraq, Vladimir Titorenko, new contracts worth another $200 million under the U.N. oil-for-food program are to be signed over the next three months.[15]
-Soviet-era debt of $7 billion through $8 billion was generated by arms sales to Iraq during the 1980–1988 Iran–Iraq war.
-Russia’s LUKoil negotiated a $4 billion, 23-year contract in 1997 to rehabilitate the 15 billion-barrel West Qurna field in southern Iraq. Work on the oil field was expected to commence upon cancellation of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. The deal is currently on hold.[16]
-In October 2001, Salvneft, a Russian–Belarus company, negotiated a $52 million service contract to drill at the Tuba field in Southern Iraq.[17]
-In April 2001, Russia’s Zaruezhneft company received a service contract to drill in the Saddam, Kirkuk, and Bai Hassan fields to rehabilitate the fields and reduce water incursion.
-A future $40 billion Iraqi–Russian economic agreement, reportedly signed in 2002, would allow for extensive oil exploration opportunities throughout western Iraq.[18] The proposal calls for 67 new projects, over a 10-year time frame, to explore and further develop fields in southern Iraq and the Western Desert, including the Suba, Luhais, West Qurna, and Rumaila projects. Additional projects added to the deal include second-phase construction of a pipeline running from southern to northern Iraq, and extensive drilling and gas projects. Work on these projects would commence upon cancellation of sanctions.[19]
-Russia’s Gazprom company over the past few years has signed contracts worth $18 million to repair gas stations in Iraq.[20]
-The former Soviet Union was the premier supplier of Iraqi arms. From 1981 to 2001, Russia supplied Iraq with 50 percent of its arms.[21]

China

-According to the CIA World Factbook, China controls roughly 5.8 percent of Iraq’s annual imports.[22]
-China National Oil Company, partnered with China North Industries Corp., negotiated a 22-year-long deal for future oil exploration in the Al Ahdab field in southern Iraq.[23]
-In recent years, the Chinese Aero-Technology Import–Export Company (CATIC) has been contracted to sell “meteorological satellite” and “surface observation” equipment to Iraq. This contract was approved by the U.N. oil-for-food program.[24]
-CATIC also won approval from the U.N. in July 2000 to sell $2 million worth of fiber optic cables. This and similar contracts approved were disguised as telecommunications gear. These cables can be used for secure data and communications links between national command and control centers and long-range search radar, targeting radar, and missile-launch units, according to U.S. officials. In addition, China National Electric Wire & Cable and China National Technical Import Telecommunications Equipment Company are believed to have sold Iraq $6 million and $15.5 million worth of communications equipment and other unspecified supplies, respectively.[25]
-According to a report from SIPRI, from 1981 to 2001, China was the second largest supplier of weapons and arms to Iraq, supplying over 18 percent of Iraq’s weapons imports.[26]

http://www.freelebanon.org/articles/a363.htm

 

[smellthecoffee]

ok. so on that logic cops should just give crooks a gun to hold and then shoot them for holding a gun. This is the reason much of the rest of the world refuses to take the USA at thier word. America plays both sides of everything to it's ultimate advantage. There is NO HONOUR in solving a problem we created initially.
This duplicity is so apparant to anyone who looks honestly at the facts. Americans and Iraqis are dying every single day because politicians can't restrain their need to control everything and everyone...evrywhere. And I am referring to politicians period! But this president has been as loose with militarism as he has been with the truth. It will be to our eternal detriment if it continues.

 

[smellthecoffee]

Originally posted by MtnBiker
Show me where I have been imflamatory.

My apology MtnBiker I should have been specific. I have not found this to be the case with you. I have however found some others to be hateful and profane, which is inappropriate for a moderator. IMO.

 

[smellthecoffee]

Originally posted by jimnyc
And speaking of 'shady' things going on with Iraq in the past, here's a little reading about those who opposed our intervention:

thank you for the clear indication that when the USA isn't holding the purse strings it's time to send in the troops and take over the resources. Who is holding all the cards ( along with the oil) now?
Viva La Haliburtan!

 

[jimnyc]

Originally posted by smellthecoffee
thank you for the clear indication that when the USA isn't holding the purse strings it's time to send in the troops and take over the resources. Who is holding all the cards ( along with the oil) now?
Viva La Haliburtan!

Can you display to us how we have taken over all their resources? Please be specific about the resources in question and display how we are now profiting from each resource. Thanks

 

[smellthecoffee]

Originally posted by jimnyc
Can you display to us how we have taken over all their resources?

Senator Richard Lugar said, "As part of our plan for Iraq...we're going to run the oil business...we're going to run it well, we're going to make money, and it's going to help pay for the rehabilitation of Iraq."
* "Make Iraq pay for war, U.S. senator says," Globe and Mail, 2 August 2002.
Kellog, Brown and Root have already won a 10-year contract to "mitigate and prevent" oil fires in Iraq. They won it before the first shot was fired.
The company is a subsidiary of Halliburton.
Halliburton is Dick Cheney's former company. Cheney's still being paid by Halliburton.
* " Ousting Hussein could open the door for U.S. and British firms. French, Russian and Chinese rivals would lose their edge," Los Angeles Times, March 12, 2003.
The Pentagon has asked KBR, Fluor, Bechtel, Louis Berger, and Parsons to bid on a $900 million contract to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure.
* "Profiting from a liberated Iraq," People's Weekly World Newspaper, Mar 29, 2003.
"Outfits such as Halliburton and Baker Hughes, as well as construction giant Bechtel Group, could feel just as victorious as the US Special Forces troops."
* "It's not 'all about oil,' but..." Business Week Online, January 30, 2003.
Part of the issue is who will have control of Iraq's rich oil resources. The U.S. has asked the UN to lift economic sanctions passed after the first Gulf War in 1991. Once the sanctions are lifted, the oil can be sold on an open market. The money from sales can be used to begin rebuilding Iraq's damaged infrastructure and establishing a democratic government.
The next big battle over who controls Iraq's future could well be played out in the UN as the Security Council meets to discuss lifting the sanctions. Bush said the regime of Saddam Hussein has "passed into history."
"Now that Iraq is liberated, the United Nations should lift economic sanctions on that country," Bush said recently while speaking to workers at a Boeing plant in St. Louis, Missouri
"rebuilding Iraq" - Scholastic.com

Even before the war in Iraq began March 20, the Bush administration was considering plans to help rebuild the country after fighting ceased. According to news reports in early March, the U.S. Agency for International Development secretly asked six U.S. companies to submit bids for a $900 million government contract to repair and reconstruct water systems, roads, bridges, schools and hospitals in Iraq.
http://www.opensecrets.org/news/rebuilding_iraq/index.asp

The cost of rebuilding Iraq has been estimated to run as high as half a trillion dollars over the next decade. If this doesn't constitute resource driven spoils of war. I don't know what does.
The charmed circle of American capitalism. Raytheon's Tomahawk and cruise missiles destroy it. Bechtel's construction equipment rebuilds it. Iraqi oil pays for it. Richard Perle shows well-heeled clients how to get rich off it. War is good business!

 

[jimnyc]

There is absolutely nothing in there showing they have taken over any resources. I'm not looking for words, I'm looking for cold hard facts and data.

 

[kcmcdonald]

smells,
at transfer the Iraqies get the oil revenue. yes we will take some to profide for reconstruction and infastructure, and Coalition compainies in charge of reconstruction and rebuilding will of course take a profit. but that is the nature of buissness. We are not highjacking the oil from the Iraqies were investing in thier country by means of a commodity.

 

[nbdysfu]

Turtle Bay’s Carnival of Corruption
Digging deeper into the scandalous Oil-for-Food program.

By Claudia Rosett

[excerpt] __________________
OIL-FOR-TERROR?
Even more disturbing is the $10.1 billion that the General Accounting Office estimates Saddam Hussein was able to salt away "in illegal revenues related to the Oil-for-Food program." By GAO estimates, recently revised upward, Saddam acquired $4.4 billion via kickbacks on relief contracts and illicit surcharges on oil contracts; plus $5.7 billion via oil smuggling. All this took place under cover of repeated Oil-for-Food "good housekeeping" seals of approval. The U.S. has so far located only a small portion of these assets. That leaves billions of Saddam's secret stash still out there. The danger is that Baathists, terrorists (with whom Saddam did indeed have connections), or some combination of the two, will get to these billions first, if they haven't already. It is worth asking if some mix of U.N. secrecy, incompetence, and corruption may have allowed the accumulation of money now backing terrorist attacks in Iraq, or elsewhere.

In any event, the first practical step should be to secure the U.N.'s own records of Oil-for-Food. In Baghdad, Oil-for-Food-related documents kept by Saddam have already proven a source of damning information and are under investigation. The Iraqi Governing Council has already commissioned a report by the private accounting firm KPMG International, due out in a few months. And U.S. administrators in Baghdad have now frozen the records there relating to Oil-for-Food, to help with congressional inquiries in advance of hearings expected next month.

But at the U.N.'s New York headquarters, not all records have been rendered up. The U.N. treasurer's office still controls the Oil-for-Food bank accounts, held in the French bank, BNP Paribas. And, the U.N. still has in its keeping all U.N. records of these BNP accounts, according to officials both in Baghdad and at the U.N.

These accounts are highly relevant to any independent look at the U.N. itself. As Sevan reminded Saddam's regime on July 12, 2001, "the signatories are United Nations staff members." Through these accounts passed more than $100 billion in U.N.-approved oil sales and relief purchases made by Saddam, and toward the end of the U.N.'s administration of Oil-for-Food, they held balances of more than $12 billion.

Outside the U.N. these bank accounts have long been a source of some mystery. The U.N. has refused to disclose BNP statements, or the amount of interest paid on those balances of billions. Even such directly concerned parties as the Kurdish regional authorities of northern Iraq — entitled to 13 percent of the proceeds of Saddam's Oil-for-Food sales — who for years have been requesting a look at the books, have received no details.

The U.N. bank records of Oil-for-Food could be especially important in filling in gaps in U.N. documentation on other fronts. For example, the U.N.-processed relief contracts were often brief, vague, and in some cases involved suppliers who could not later be located, as confirmed both by notes on the U.N.'s own website, and in a phone interview with officials of the U.S. Defense Contract Management Agency, which together with the Defense Contract Audit Agency last summer reviewed hundreds of top-dollar Oil-for-Food contracts, culled from the thousands still open after the fall of Saddam. The bank records should at least include full details of all transfers of funds — the accounts whence they came, and the accounts to which they went.

Why did the U.S. allow the U.N. to keep control of the accounts (and the records) after responsibility for winding down all other aspects of the Oil-for-Food program was turned over to the CPA last November? One CPA official explains that the BNP accounts were left in the hands of U.N. personnel because the bookkeeping was so Byzantine the CPA feared any attempt to intervene might interrupt needed deliveries of relief to Iraq.

link: National Review Online

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