The Rain in Spain Falls Mainly on the Slain

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by wonderwench, Mar 15, 2004.

  1. wonderwench
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    Our Mark Steyn Fix:

    The Spanish dishonoured their dead

    "When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, naturally they will like the strong horse." So said Osama bin Laden in his final video appearance two-and-a-half years ago. But even the late Osama might have been surprised to see the Spanish people, invited to choose between a strong horse and a weak horse, opt to make their general election an exercise in mass self-gelding.

    To be sure, there are all kinds of John Kerry-esque footnoted nuances to Sunday's stark numbers. One sympathises with those electors reported to be angry at the government's pathetic insistence, in the face of the emerging evidence, that Thursday's attack was the work of Eta, when it was obviously the jihad boys. One's sympathy, however, disappears with their decision to vote for a party committed to disengaging from the war against the jihadi. As Margaret Thatcher would have said: "This is no time to go wobbly, Manuel." But they did. And no one will remember the footnotes, the qualifications, the background - just the final score: terrorists toppled a European government.

    What was it all those party leaders used to drone robotically after IRA atrocities? We must never let the bullet and the bomb win out over the ballot and the bollocks. Something like that. In Spain, the bombers hijacked the ballot, and very decisively. The Socialist Workers' Party wouldn't have won, except for the terrorism.

    At the end of last week, American friends kept saying to me: "3/11 is Europe's 9/11. They get it now." I expressed scepticism. And I v[iery much doubt whether March 11 will be a day that will live in infamy. Rather, March 14 seems likely to be the date bequeathed to posterity, in the way we remember those grim markers on the road to conflagration through the 1930s, the tactical surrenders that made disaster inevitable. All those umbrellas in the rain at Friday's marches proved to be pretty pictures for the cameras, nothing more. The rain in Spain falls mainly on the slain. In the three days between the slaughter and the vote, it was widely reported that the atrocity had been designed to influence the election. In allowing it to do so, the Spanish knowingly made Sunday a victory for appeasement and dishonoured their own dead. (more)
     
  2. goodboy
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    Knee-jerk politics.
    I just never saw the connection between Iraq and Al Qaida, well at least not until AFTER we invaded it.
    No weapons of mass-distraction either....funny that!

    Pre-emptive war = moral can of worms.

    Next week: the official opening of Pandora's box....bring a bible and a gumshield.
     
  3. wonderwench
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    Yawn.

    Radical Islamic Fundamentalists have declared a Jihad on Western Civilization - and they are counting on people like you to bury your heads in the sand.
     
  4. goodboy
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    And counting on people like you to get scared and incite more war. That after all is what terrorism is for, to incite paranoia and to provoke.

    I hate terrorists, we've lived with terrorism in the UK for many, many years. I want them all dead. And Saddam hated terrorists because he was initially a secular dictator, Osama wouldn't have had anything to do with him.

    Hunt the terrorists down (they are allin friggin' Europe and Saudi Arabia anyway, not Iraq), investigate through intelligence and remain vigilant and resilient. You sound you think a holy war is actually the solution. Your talk is dangerously subversive.
     
  5. nbdysfu
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    I don't know if ww is one to be called holy. Perhaps you should bring back that old avatar wonderwench. (It really helps the unfamiliar. ;))

    I think you would be totally right to call out someone if they abused religion to incite war; that is not the contemporary western role of religion.

    I am not convinced the jihad is a religious war. It is funded by corrupt leaders who seek to twist certain perceptions of fundamental doctrines of their religion, focusing the rage of the masses that they impoverish away from their own vice and onto 'decadent' america. The fodder of the jihad is motivated by a misconception of its own religion and a distaste for western culture, desparation and bloodlust.

    The leadership of the jihad and the left* are motivated to subvert the defense of western culture for one reason only: the desire for power.
     
  6. wonderwench
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    That sounds all happy happy joy joy. If we were dealing with rational people - your approach would be feasible.

    But we are not. They have declared war on us. Sitting back and waiting to be attacked is not an option.

    Sadly, much of Europe is now on the appeasement track. So it will be up to the U.S. to save the world from itself.
     
  7. Bry
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    Yesterday was the anniversary of the famous meeting in the Azores of three democratically elected leaders. In the US, the photos of that meeting might have been considered comforting. The Americans would not be alone in their preemptive invasion. However, by the majority of the citizens in the other two of those nations which were represented by their democratically elected leaders in the Azores, the photos of that meeting represented an unconscionable betrayal. Precisely in Spain, more than ninety percent of the population was against supporting the American invasion of Iraq.

    Turn forward to what has just transpired here in Spain. The governing party has been removed from power in Democratic elections in the wake of a tragic attack on the population of Spain on the part of Islamic extremists associated with Al Qaeda. In the four days that passed between the attack itself and the elections, the government (it has been DEMONSTRATED) took every opportunity to hide the truth, pressure and intimidate the international press corp, and in select moments to lie outright. A poll conducted on the eve of the election, the results of which were not released until today, Tuesday, showed that 51% of the Spanish population were convinced that their government was manipulating information. 29% believed that the information offered by the government was released unaltered and in a timely manner. This poll was conducted BEFORE it was conclusively demonstrated that the government had in fact occulted, delayed the release of, and in some instances changed the information it was their obligation to present to the public. In any case, the assertion that the ruling party, in the absence of the bombing attacks, would have carried the day, is patently unfounded and absurd. A week before the election (days before the bombing), several polls declared the campaign a virtual tie, and no poll showed the ruling party with more than a five percent edge. The election results, if anything, show the Spanish refusal to surrender themselves to corrupt politics, not to Bin Laden.

    The opinion which you have selected for us, WW, is not informed. It fails to offer even a token of an understanding of what the Spanish people have lived in the last year and a half. What it does do is participate in the shameless right-wing propaganda that would have us believe that the only way to fight terrorists is to pre-emptively invade countries, and to equate a failure to support such an invasion even under the extreme conditions which the Spanish government has created for their constituency, with cowardice. I can tell you because I am living it. The Spanish reaction the the sad turns of events in the last weel has been anything but cowardly. The elections Sunday produced an unprecedented participation of nearly 80%. Protests went around the clock, as the people demanded that their government act like the democratically elected REPRESENTATIVES that they are. To call such behavior cowardice is blasphemy against the very precepts of democracy.

    If some unpublishable jackass wants to opine (and you, WW, want to agree) that Spain has acted in a somehow cowardly way by voting out this government which has for years systematically abused their power, and in the last week put their will to deceive and manipulate the public on display for all the world to see, don't be surprised if someone takes offense. It doesn't take a genious to realize that for better or for worse, Spain was never on board when it came to the war in Iraq, and it is frankly insulting for some idiot to somehow equate a nation's unwillingness to be manipulated and browbeaten by their elected officials into supporting that war and its consequences, with a cowardly submission to Bin Laden and his henchmen.
     
  8. wonderwench
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    Bry,

    My sympathies are with the Spanish people. I don't think they yet understand the import of their decision.

    The terrorists strikes were conducted to instill fear and topple the government. They succeeded. And the are further emboldened to continue attacking other coalition members in the hopes of turning their populations against the government.

    Like it of not, Radical Fundamental Islamic Radicals have declared war on Western Civilization. Appeasement doesn't work with people who believe God has ordered them to kill you. Call it rightwing if you like - I call it realistic.
     
  9. Bry
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    I agree that it is possible that Al Qaeda will interpret the election results in Spain as encouraging to their modus operandi. That would be an unfortunate result of two unrelated circumstances. The people of Spain have spoken to remove from power a thoroughly abusive government. That is their obligation as citizens of a democracy. To suggest that their actions are in some way equivalent to a capitulation to terrorists is nothing short of grotesque. -the existence of terrorists in no way obligates the people of Spain to remain under the sway of an abusive government, and to suggest otherwise is nothing short of insulting.

    The president elect has made it clear that troops will remain in Iraq past the previously established June 30th end of their mission, if and only if control of Iraq is turned over to UN authority. Apart from his unwillingness to continue supporting the US presence in Iraq, he has stated that he intends to stand strong against terrorism. By referring to such a stance simply as "appeasement", you are doing nothing more than playing the partisan game of "you're either with us or you're against us". I would only ask that before you post vitriolic garbage about the slain in Spain, that you make some effort to inform yourself on the circumstances which are involved.
     
  10. kcmcdonald
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    Bry,
    I understand you live in Spain and the majority of the public did not support the war. However before the attack anzar's government was expected to maintain a majority. With the attack the spainish people descided against the ruling majority blameing them for the dealths and gavanizing the country against the war. However you're first president realized what the true threat of terror is. That it is beound the UN it is beyound spains borders, your next president does not, he looks at it as an internal problam. terror is interantional not national and the mass movement of the populouses in Europe remind me of the 30's. I can't sit by and let a population who sat ideally by while the worst murder in history(as of YET!!!!!) gained power and then when action was taken it was to late. I'm sorry for the losses and the fear, but that's what the terroists want, you to be affarid and to run and hide, that's what the spainish electorite just did, they ran and hid away from the world war on terror.
     

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