Open Borders

[sky dancer]

Here is a quote from Howard Zinn-- professor emeritus at Boston University, perhaps this country's premier radical historian.

"The world that I envision is one in which national boundaries no longer exist, in which you can move from one country to another with the same ease in which we can move from Massachusetts to Connecticut, a world without passports or visas or immigration quotas. True globalization in the human sense, in which we recognize that the world is one and that human beings everywhere have the same rights.

In a world like that you could not make war because it is your family, just as we are not thinking of making war on an adjoining state or even a far-off state. It would be a world in which the riches of the planet would be distributed in an equitable fashion, where everybody has access to clean water. Yes, that would take some organization to make sure that the riches of the earth are distributed according to human need.

A world in which people are free to speak, a world in which there was a true bill of rights. A world in which people had their fundamental economic needs taken care of would be a world in which people were freer to express themselves because political rights and free speech rights are really dependent on economic status and having fundamental economic needs taken care of.

I think it would be a world in which the boundaries of race and religion and nation would not become causes for antagonism. Even though there would still be cultural differences and still be language differences, there would not be causes for violent action of one against the other.

I think it would be a world in which people would not have to work more than a few hours a day, which is possible with the technology available today. If this technology were not used in the way it is now used, for war and for wasteful activities, people could work three or four hours a day and produce enough to take care of any needs. So it would be a world in which people had more time for music and sports and literature and just living in a human way with others."
t r u t h o u t | Howard Zinn: A World Without Borders

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Skydancer; I think you know better than equating WAR with ...Immigration, legal or otherwise. I thought better of you than such hyperbole.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Let me add this little tidbit here, skydancer. I bet H. Zinn doesn't deal with illegal aliens, and despite all that crap, he isolates himself among all those WHITE elitists that think JUST LIKE HE DOES. Wow, that is commitment for ya. He isolates himself among the other whites. He can hire guards to further protect his culture and his IDEALS and then have the balls to proselytize against immigration laws? Yeah, Right. I suppose Zinn isn't any different than those that exploit "Undocumented Immigrants", either. Color me a little SKEPTICAL. No, sorry. Open borders are just idealist dreams , that is all it will ever be. It is totally against HUMAN nature.

 

[sky dancer]

Skydancer; I think you know better than equating WAR with ...Immigration, legal or otherwise. I thought better of you than such hyperbole.

Actually, war is at the heart of my concern about immigration. Some of the anti-immigration activists see this immigration crisis as an 'invasion' which is a militant term. I come to this discussion of immigration from an anti-war stance. Some anti-immigration extremists want to militarize the borders further and create a Palestinian/Israeli like fence for 700 milles.

I agree with Howard Zinn's radical historical view of Mexican immigration--within the context of a never finished war with Mexico.

 

[sky dancer]

Let me add this little tidbit here, skydancer. I bet H. Zinn doesn't deal with illegal aliens, and despite all that crap, he isolates himself among all those WHITE elitists that think JUST LIKE HE DOES. Wow, that is commitment for ya. He isolates himself among the other whites. He can hire guards to further protect his culture and his IDEALS and then have the balls to proselytize against immigration laws? Yeah, Right. I suppose Zinn isn't any different than those that exploit "Undocumented Immigrants", either. Color me a little SKEPTICAL. No, sorry. Open borders are just idealist dreams , that is all it will ever be. It is totally against HUMAN nature.

You don't know Howard Zinn personally, so none of your claims about him take away from his arguments.

Color me skeptical when YOU bring up Howard Zinn's skin color and call him an elitist.

Of course, open borders are idealistic. But considering that they exist now tried NOW in Europe I'd hardly call them 'just idealist dreams'.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

So, we quibble here. You don't know H. Zinn from Enoch Powell or Tom Tancrado. Suffer the children unto thee. I live in a barrio. None of my business, but were do you live? You know what I mean. You seem to be presume alot here. I don't think YOU will put your money were your idealism is, either. Try it. Put that idealism to a test, skip the crap.

 

[sky dancer]

Hi Silver-

I know Tom Tancredo from Howard Zinn, that's for sure.

You presume quite a bit yourself. We could be getting to know each other. Aren't you the same fellow who just posted about mutual respect?

I put my money where my idealism is--that's why I live where I live.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Skydancer: I meant no offense. I don't always like the things I post here, my apologies. On that same note, please don't patronize me, either. I'm caught between two worlds . It's unpleasant and difficult. Part Anglo, part Hispanic. And, there isn't much middle ground. That isn't me being an intolerant jerk. ( Well, maybe a little... nobody is perfect. ) You are an idealist? So am I. Borders are not evil things. They are quite necessary sometimes. And yes, RESPECT goes a long way, too.

 

[sky dancer]

Skydancer: I meant no offense. I don't always like the things I post here, my apologies. On that same note, please don't patronize me, either. I'm caught between two worlds . It's unpleasant and difficult. Part Anglo, part Hispanic. And, there isn't much middle ground. That isn't me being an intolerant jerk. ( Well, maybe a little... nobody is perfect. ) You are an idealist? So am I. Borders are not evil things. They are quite necessary sometimes. And yes, RESPECT goes a long way, too.

I don't know how I may have patronized you. It is not my intent. I never said borders are evil things--I said I can imagine a world with porous borders and it already exists in Europe. We can create that on our continent too, if we choose to.

I am sorry if any of my posts offended you. I am posing some philosophical questions in regard to immigration. We do have philosophies behind immigration policy. Historically, those policies have been racist and exclusive.

Some of the authors I'm reading suggest that if people are allowed to come and live and work in other countries easily--that we will still need to help third world countries become stronger.

I'm interested in hearing more about how you feel caught between anglo and hispanic worlds.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

I just picked up a little boy that doesn't speak a word of English in my living room, he just tried to hurt his older sister. In my house, right now. This isn't some kind of far out dream world I live in, it's confused and its a mess and I just wish everyone would stop the crap and just do the bloody right thing instead of playing games. These kid's Mexican parents, the INS, all of us. You know how depressing this issue is to me ? It seems simple in practice, no so in reality. I have been in the position to report people and businesses to the INS, and do you know why I haven't? I don't know, either. Because I am a coward or idealistic? Things aren't so simple. For me, it isn't an abstraction and I recognize "THEY" are human beings. But, they can still immigrate LEGALLY. I have seen their blood spilt on my front walk, and behind my house. I know that that blood could just as easily have been mine, or yours, for that matter.

 

[sky dancer]

I'm happy to be getting to know you, Silver. I agree, when it comes to immigration right now, things are not simple.

It's a luxury for some of us to be able to discuss the idea of open borders.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Living with illegals is no luxury, skydancer. It complicates things. They are human, but they really should be able to follow the rules. They can. They won't. We excuse them... we pretend they are the underdog and forgive them their trespasses. I don't, I live with these losers. They deserve all the bad press they get, and even more. It isn't a lie. It isn't exaggerated.

 

[jodylee]

don't worry when the north american union is formed you wont have to worry about borders. maybe start learning spanish, thats my tip.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Living with illegals is no luxury, skydancer. It complicates things. They are human, but they really should be able to follow the rules. They can. They won't. We excuse them... we pretend they are the underdog and forgive them their trespasses. I don't, I live with these losers. They deserve all the bad press they get, and even more. It isn't a lie. It isn't exaggerated.

It could be simple... 4 steps:

1. Make 'American' the official language - not 'English'... I've been to England and they talk funny! People should be free to converse and conduct business in any language they want, but all government business should be done in the American language.

2. Take control of our borders.

3. Open the borders up to everyone who wants to come here and work, as long as they understand that they will be required to register every time they cross the border and if they fuck up and commit a crime they can never come back. We should probably include a provision of some sort that addresses any children born here to non-citizens.

4. Come up with some sort of bonus for actually being a bona fide citizen like "All citizens can earn $50,000 per year tax free", or "Only citizens can own property".

The only thing lacking would opening up 'We, The People Health Insurance' so we could charge aliens who wish to participate $10 per month more than the citizens who voluntarily participate.

See, simple!

-Joe

 

[Mr. President]

Secure borders.

Allow lower number of immigrants in.

Do not allow children to be granted immediate citizenship.

All temporary workers required to check in three times a month. Missing two check-ins is ground for revocation of work visa and removal from country.

No tax funded program benefitting the unemployed will be allowed to sponsor immigrants who have not recieved full citizenship.

 

[007]

A country is like your home. Your home is a microcosm of your country. Would you simply throw open your doors for any Tom, Dick or Harry to come and go as they pleased? I think not, and neither should we do so with our country.

 

[SW2SILVERQUASI]

Skydancer: You cite examples that are neither compelling nor convincing. Yes, It's me, the guy that lives with illegal aliens, yet again, like a bad penny. I like the idea of open borders, just the same way I like the honor system. But, funny thing happens when honesty competes with avarice. Illegal aliens don't give *%@+ about the Nation or the laws or the culture they are invading. I know it makes you all warm a fuzzy inside, to help these poor poor poor folks and all that liberal junk. I am fellow liberal, by the by. No joke, No mockery, I usually vote Democratic and all that stuff. Scout's honor. Well, I never was a scout, and I don't have a bible to swear on. Agnostic. Sorry. See the thing about this issue, it's a matter of ethics,more than anything else. Not so much Mexican illegal immigrants that are the focus here, but the attitude of all Americans. Particularly the ones that support open borders and hire illegal aliens. Let me guess, sweat heart...You live in a universe far far far away from any taint of "diversity" illegal aliens bring with them. I know you don't. Euphemisms aside, and all those cherry picked facts you people dig up aside. Very few of you have to deal with the heavy difficult issues illegals bring with them, so, in effect, and any mention of how bad illegals are is just exaggerations by petty jingoistic hysterical conservative ultra right neocon racist, as far as you folks are concerned. Nope, not really . Keep me in mind. I am as real as death and illegals are. By the way, how many illegal aliens do you know? Or suspect, but can't ask them? How many of them are your immediate neighbors? Or married to a relative? Just curious. I live in that world, and it isn't and exaggeration. We deserve better.

 

[007]

Skydancer: You cite examples that are neither compelling nor convincing. Yes, It's me, the guy that lives with illegal aliens, yet again, like a bad penny. I like the idea of open borders, just the same way I like the honor system. But, funny thing happens when honesty competes with avarice. Illegal aliens don't give *%@+ about the Nation or the laws or the culture they are invading. I know it makes you all warm a fuzzy inside, to help these poor poor poor folks and all that liberal junk. I am fellow liberal, by the by. No joke, No mockery, I usually vote Democratic and all that stuff. Scout's honor. Well, I never was a scout, and I don't have a bible to swear on. Agnostic. Sorry. See the thing about this issue, it's a matter of ethics,more than anything else. Not so much Mexican illegal immigrants that are the focus here, but the attitude of all Americans. Particularly the ones that support open borders and hire illegal aliens. Let me guess, sweat heart...You live in a universe far far far away from any taint of "diversity" illegal aliens bring with them. I know you don't. Euphemisms aside, and all those cherry picked facts you people dig up aside. Very few of you have to deal with the heavy difficult issues illegals bring with them, so, in effect, and any mention of how bad illegals are is just exaggerations by petty jingoistic hysterical conservative ultra right neocon racist, as far as you folks are concerned. Nope, not really . Keep me in mind. I am as real as death and illegals are. By the way, how many illegal aliens do you know? Or suspect, but can't ask them? How many of them are your immediate neighbors? Or married to a relative? Just curious. I live in that world, and it isn't and exaggeration. We deserve better.

Your arguments couldn't be more realistic. But I'm afraid your wasting your breath. Sky Dancer does not, and I suspect will not, EVER, give one clue that she hears anything other than her own unrealistic belief that the world is 'moving towards' a new world order of open borders. She's a broken record of moon bat idealism. She's the Geno Roddenberry of open borders, and a vehement adversary of illegal immigration. There is no room in her mind for any argument, however based in fact or actuality to the contrary.

It's been fun reading your posts though. I've enjoyed it.

 

[StaleBO]

Your arguments couldn't be more realistic...

It's been fun reading your posts though. I've enjoyed it.

I agree. I have been reading this thread with interest and believe SW2SILVERQUASI provided excellent points.

Unabated immigration is placing a tremendous burden on state and local governments. Education, health care, prisons and a host of other social services are assumed burdens where those benefiting rarely contribute to their funding certainly not in a proportional amount. Now only if the state and local governments could do what the federal government does... Article One Section 8 it.

 

[Meister]

Unfortunatley, most governments like our far left party is all for a one world government. JFK brought it forward in the early 1960's. Fact of the matter is it doesn't work, and it won't work. Europe is finding all sorts of problems with it, and they are the forerunners of it. If the left wants to have open borders, they should volunteer 25% of their wages just for the funding of this operation...then pay their own taxes with what's left over. I bet not one of them will step forward. There is enough democrats that could fund the operation for several years to come. Only if they all agree, of course. But don't come looking for me to fund an idiotic idea such as open borders. I lived in California for decades...they now are 42 billion in the red. A large portion is for the illegal criminals.
I knew a 20 year old illegal that worked for a construction company. He claimed 6 dependants on his W-4, he was single and had no children. He recieved 88% of his wages, and never filed taxes at the end of the year. The next year he came up with another social security card, and did it all over again, and he bragged about it. Don't go telling me how they pay taxes, too...OK?