One swiftboat veteran officially discredited

[tpahl]

Because I will not have some cheesy bastard impugning the record of those who fought and bled and died and then turn around and try to use the reputation of those same people to get elected.

There may be things more important to you and that's fine. But there is nothing more important to me. Perhaps flying home with my co-pilot's brains spattered all over me tends to make me a little touchy about people who seek to cheapen our service solely to garner votes.

I guess my point is not that it is not important, it is important. But it is not an important reason for most people not to vote for him. If you are truly so upset with him for doing this, I can understand your anger. But if it makes you feel better to see him lose, than I would concentrate on other issues that non vets are going to be more convinced by.

As you know, I am not a kerry or Bush supporter, So I am coming from a unbiased (in terms of bush v kerry) perspective. I think all the attention being given by republicans to the whole purple hearts is precisely what Kerry supporters want. Why? Because if they are talking about something as inconsequential (to most americans, but not you and other vets) as whether he was just kinda hurt or really hurt, or whether he did or did not do such and such a thing in vietnam 40 years ago, then they are not talking about the actual policies and legislation that Kerry supports that most of america does not agree with. In other words, the GOP is pumping out the smoke and holding up the mirrors FOR kerry, and he is loving it.

And again, his actually stance against the vietnam war and his protesting of it is a completly different view. That actual shows how he would govern as president. The specifics of what he did in vietnam tell us next to nothing about how he would govern.
Travis

 

[tpahl]

I think it's just more of a credibility (lying) problem with Kerry and this is just one more example of him making it a big issue then lying about it at the same time.

The main author of that book Unfit For Command is going to be on Hannity and Colmes (sp) tonight

If people are actually expecting a career politician to be honest and not lie, then I guess it is important. I think most of america already knows that career politicians are liars and do not need it proved to them by proving that Kerry did or did not do something in a jungle in vietnam 40 years ago.

 

[tpahl]

It goes to character.

You do not think that his agenda is far more damaging than his agenda?

Quit acting like a conservative.

I am not a conservative. Nor am I acting like one. Nor have I claimed to be one.

Just the fact that you think the truth of whether or not he lied about his actions to get medals is irrelevant reveals to me that you're really a lib.

You should not jump to conclusions so quickly.

You've learned to pepper your speech with the word "liberal", but you fool nobody.

You do not beleive that I am a libertarian? What would it take to prove it to you?

 

[Annie]

...I think all the attention being given by republicans to the whole purple hearts is precisely what Kerry supporters want... Travis

You are being deliberately obtuse. It's about LYING! Not about wounds, how he got them or didn't. For me, doesn't even have as much to do with his slandering young men that were fighting and some dying.

Your point of it being about medals makes as much sense as saying the Clinton mess was about sex. Wasn't and isn't.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You do not think that his agenda is far more damaging than his agenda?



I am not a conservative. Nor am I acting like one. Nor have I claimed to be one.



You should not jump to conclusions so quickly.



You do not beleive that I am a libertarian? What would it take to prove it to you?

Ok. Eat a worm, mikey. That'll prove it to me!

 

[tpahl]

You are being deliberately obtuse. It's about LYING! Not about wounds, how he got them or didn't. For me, doesn't even have as much to do with his slandering young men that were fighting and some dying.

Your point of it being about medals makes as much sense as saying the Clinton mess was about sex. Wasn't and isn't.

I am not saying the medals are not important. I agree the issue is not the medals. The issue is whether he lied about the medals or not. And my point is that whether he did or not is really not that important or damaging. So he lied. career politicians do that and no one will be surprised.

The same was true with clinton and sex. I do not care whether he lied about it or not. There were many more damaging things that he did than lie about sex. The GOP should have concentrated on those things, and should concentrate on kerrys bad record instead of lying as well.

 

[tpahl]

Ok. Eat a worm, mikey. That'll prove it to me!

Done. now are you going to let it drop. I am sick of you accusing me of being a liberal whenever you do not want to talk about the topic at hand. If you do not want to discuss the topic at hand, just don't reply. I do it all the time.

 

[Annie]

I am not saying the medals are not important. I agree the issue is not the medals. The issue is whether he lied about the medals or not. And my point is that whether he did or not is really not that important or damaging. So he lied. career politicians do that and no one will be surprised.

The same was true with clinton and sex. I do not care whether he lied about it or not. There were many more damaging things that he did than lie about sex. The GOP should have concentrated on those things, and should concentrate on kerrys bad record instead of lying as well.

You could get paid more working for Kerry, though I doubt you'd have more luck at gaining votes.

ONCE again, the issue is not the medals. Simple lie-CAMBODIA! The medals are neither here nor there. Lying, about unnecessary items, much less self delusion, is not something we should look for in a president. He had no reason to make up the Christmas in Cambodia story and go on and on for years about it.

Lying about sex wasn't the problem with Clinton, obstruction and LYING UNDER OATH were.

 

[Bonnie]

If people are actually expecting a career politician to be honest and not lie, then I guess it is important. I think most of america already knows that career politicians are liars and do not need it proved to them by proving that Kerry did or did not do something in a jungle in vietnam 40 years ago.

Well then by that rationalization how can you believe ANYTHING Kerry says??????? If he says he's going to not raise taxes on the middle class, he could just be lying to get elected. Im not so cynical as to think all politicians outright lie, probably a lot do, Kerry has told many a whopper so far and all throughout his career, there is no excuse for that, and it is that which makes him unfit to lead this country..............

 

[tpahl]

You could get paid more working for Kerry, though I doubt you'd have more luck at gaining votes.

Why do you say that? In my opinion i think I am helping Bush by pointing out that Kerry's lies (or supposed lies) are much less damaging than Kerry's policies. I seriously doubt that Kerry would appreciate me trying to make the public and media focus on his actual policies. They are not pretty so he prefers people talk about other things.

ONCE again, the issue is not the medals. Simple lie-CAMBODIA! The medals are neither here nor there. Lying, about unnecessary items, much less self delusion, is not something we should look for in a president. He had no reason to make up the Christmas in Cambodia story and go on and on for years about it.

Lying about sex wasn't the problem with Clinton, obstruction and LYING UNDER OATH were.

I repeat!!! I am not saying the medals are not important. I agree the issue is not the medals. & The same was true with clinton and sex.

The problem i have is not with the medals or the sex, it is the idea that proving that Clinton or Kerry have lied is not that damaging compared to their policies.

So please stop pretending that I am saying that the issue of medals is imiportant... I repeat the thing i think is important is that lying politicians is not a big deal and you should concentrate on issues.

 

[Annie]

Why do you say that? In my opinion i think I am helping Bush by pointing out that Kerry's lies (or supposed lies) are much less damaging than Kerry's policies. I seriously doubt that Kerry would appreciate me trying to make the public and media focus on his actual policies. They are not pretty so he prefers people talk about other things.

I repeat!!! I am not saying the medals are not important. I agree the issue is not the medals. & The same was true with clinton and sex.

The problem i have is not with the medals or the sex, it is the idea that proving that Clinton or Kerry have lied is not that damaging compared to their policies.

So please stop pretending that I am saying that the issue of medals is imiportant... I repeat the thing i think is important is that lying politicians is not a big deal and you should concentrate on issues.

For some of us, LYING FOR PERSONAL AGGRANDIZEMENT, OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, AND LYING UNDER OATH ARE IMPORTANT!

 

[tpahl]

For some of us, LYING FOR PERSONAL AGGRANDIZEMENT, OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, AND LYING UNDER OATH ARE IMPORTANT!

And you think that people did not know that he does that without proving this thing about the medals?

 

[Annie]

And you think that people did not know that he does that without proving this thing about the medals?

It has nothing to do with the medals, it has everything to do with lying about Christmas in Cambodia, not once or twice. Not before the Senate or outside of it.

 

[tpahl]

It has nothing to do with the medals, it has everything to do with lying about Christmas in Cambodia, not once or twice. Not before the Senate or outside of it.

okay, do you think that people do not know that he is liar without proving the thing about christmas in cambodia?

 

[Annie]

okay, do you think that people do not know that he is liar without proving the thing about christmas in cambodia?

It speaks to his character, or lack thereof. I really am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I do not post on Bush's great qualities over and over. If something in the news catches my eye, I'll post. Same with Kerry, I don't go looking for stuff, though if it happens, I'll post. Some will agree, some will not. Doesn't matter to me.

 

[tpahl]

It speaks to his character, or lack thereof. I really am not trying to prove anything to anyone. I do not post on Bush's great qualities over and over. If something in the news catches my eye, I'll post. Same with Kerry, I don't go looking for stuff, though if it happens, I'll post. Some will agree, some will not. Doesn't matter to me.

I know that it speaks to his character or lack thereof. What I am trying to get at is if you agree or disagree that it is even worth mentioning the incident in cambodia on christmas and whether Kerry lied or not. It seems to be spoken of so much by media and Bush supporters at the cost of actually looking at Kerrys policies. Do you think that Bush supporters and the media would be better served by focusing on policies or on whether kerry lied about christmas in Cambodia?

 

[Annie]

I know that it speaks to his character or lack thereof. What I am trying to get at is if you agree or disagree that it is even worth mentioning the incident in cambodia on christmas and whether Kerry lied or not. It seems to be spoken of so much by media and Bush supporters at the cost of actually looking at Kerrys policies. Do you think that Bush supporters and the media would be better served by focusing on policies or on whether kerry lied about christmas in Cambodia?

I don't see why my opinion would matter to you.

 

[Bonnie]

I know that it speaks to his character or lack thereof. What I am trying to get at is if you agree or disagree that it is even worth mentioning the incident in cambodia on christmas and whether Kerry lied or not. It seems to be spoken of so much by media and Bush supporters at the cost of actually looking at Kerrys policies. Do you think that Bush supporters and the media would be better served by focusing on policies or on whether kerry lied about christmas in Cambodia?

Id like to address this....Bush and his camapign officials are addressing Kerry's many flawed policy ideas. Here is the irony in all of this........right now Kerry is spending money that he should be saving to use closer to the camapign being on the defense with this whole Swift boat vet alegations book and commercial. This commercial started out as a 150.000 dollar commercial to be shown in a few battle ground states, Wisconsin, Ohio, and I think VA, as of right now Kerry is losing ground with the independants, the vets, and the catholic voters due partly to this issue and probably his lousy and very liberal voting record in the senate. Kerry and his own campaign is what propelled this situation to become a nationwide campaign issue. If he really wanted to take the steam out of this he should release his war records (the official one, not his doc's hand written accounting), but he won't because he is lying........That's the bottom line. Truth and policy are intertwined and there is no getting away from that.

 

[Annie]

Id like to address this....Bush and his camapign officials are addressing Kerry's many flawed policy ideas. Here is the irony in all of this........right now Kerry is spending money that he should be saving to use closer to the camapign being on the defense with this whole Swift boat vet alegations book and commercial. This commercial started out as a 150.000 dollar commercial to be shown in a few battle ground states, Wisconsin, Ohio, and I think VA, as of right now Kerry is losing ground with the independants, the vets, and the catholic voters due partly to this issue and probably his lousy and very liberal voting record in the senate. Kerry and his own campaign is what propelled this situation to become a nationwide campaign issue. If he really wanted to take the steam out of this he should release his war records (the official one, not his doc's hand written accounting), but he won't because he is lying........That's the bottom line. Truth and policy are intertwined and there is no getting away from that.

Good post Bonnie! For some reason, Travis and I descend into repetition. :tng: I'm sure it will end with the election! :read: (Fine Print: BUSH WINS!!!!)

 

[tpahl]

Id like to address this....Bush and his camapign officials are addressing Kerry's many flawed policy ideas. Here is the irony in all of this........right now Kerry is spending money that he should be saving to use closer to the camapign being on the defense with this whole Swift boat vet alegations book and commercial. This commercial started out as a 150.000 dollar commercial to be shown in a few battle ground states, Wisconsin, Ohio, and I think VA, as of right now Kerry is losing ground with the independants, the vets, and the catholic voters due partly to this issue and probably his lousy and very liberal voting record in the senate. Kerry and his own campaign is what propelled this situation to become a nationwide campaign issue. If he really wanted to take the steam out of this he should release his war records (the official one, not his doc's hand written accounting), but he won't because he is lying........That's the bottom line. Truth and policy are intertwined and there is no getting away from that.

I know that the bush Campaign and Bush himself are not addressing this whole fiasco. I am not criticizing Bush or his campaign. I am criticizing the media and the millions of Bush supporters that continue to harp on this issue at the expense of actual policy issues.

I am also aware that Kerry is spending alot of money to try and dispute the swift boat ads. This coincindes with my theory that Kerry is happy that people seem so obsessed with this issue rather than his senate voting record and his actual plans for the future. The more time spend debating who is right about what he did or did not do is less time spent criticizing the issues where Kerry is very weak and he knows it. He is basically choosing to accept the lesser of two different negatives to his candidacy. Many republicans and most of the media seem to be helping him along.

Travis