On Reinstating The Draft

[Alpha1]

Interesting side isssue....

Justification for attacks on civilians

Conscription is a component of total war, and can also be used as an example of established policy to justify a government's demand that other sacrifices be required of civilians. Once a draft is allowed, Justice Louis Brandeis argued, "all bets are off".[43] Arguably this results in a blurring of the moral distinction between civilians and the military as legitimate military targets, leading to attacks on civilians.[citation needed] Examples would include the indiscriminate bombing of cities conducted by both sides during World War II, the My Lai Massacre. It has been popular recently to call civilian deaths "collateral damage" although their deaths are highly predictable. In fact, during the last century, civilian deaths have grown compared to military deaths in conflict.

Conscription makes all citizens potential solders...

 

[Avatar4321]

I think Obama will reinstate the draft if Pakistan erupts the way I think it could

Id be more worried about Mexico erupting the way I think it could.

 

[manu1959]

no, it isn't. indentured servitude is paying a debt with one's labor over a certain period of time, agreed to by both parties.

Well, I suppose three different online dictionary websites better fix their pages then.

I do realize what Indentured servants are though. Just about half of all white immigrants to the English colonies of North America during the 17th and 18th were Indentured servants.

didn't most of those white immigrants choose to trade their labour for a trip to the americas.....

 

[Xenophon]

It's interesting that Socialism and Conscription always seem to go together, isn't it.

Socialists always try to force people to do things they don't want to do 'for their own good' including military service.

 

[Modbert]

didn't most of those white immigrants choose to trade their labour for a trip to the americas.....

Yes, though of course many came to America at the time for a better life since the situation in their country wasn't good.

So it was partly out of choice and partly out of necessity.

 

[Lycurgus]

It would not surprise me to see some kind of draft initiative during the Obama term. However, I would be surprised if it ended up being a traditional general draft. What are the real odds or conditions which might set something like this off? Good question, I'm not sure we could begin to sort them out just yet.

Personally I hope nothing triggers such a move.

 

[Ravi]

Much has been made by the new administration of the idea of national service and volunteerism. While service to one’s community is certainly admirable, it is not the federal government’s place to “encourage” or promote volunteerism. Moreover, there are troubling signs that national service could transition from voluntary to mandatory, or de facto mandatory, such as the requirement of service in order to be granted a diploma, or something along those lines.

Involuntary servitude was supposed to be abolished by the 13th Amendment, but things like Selective Service and the income tax make me wonder how serious we really are in defending just basic freedom. The income tax enslaves workers for nearly 4 months out of a year by garnishing what amounts to all their wages in that period of time. A military draft could demand your very life, without your consent. This should be unthinkable in a free society.

Congressman Ron Paul - On Reinstating the Draft - Texas Straight Talk

Is he talking about the requirement to do community service work to get a diploma? If so, that's been happening in Florida for a few years. Also, if you get a diploma it isn't exactly servitude.

Isn't Ron Paul one who thinks that welfare should be only given if people receiving it perform some kind of service for it? If he is, he is contradicting himself.

 

[Ravi]

don't have the right?!?!?!

you people haven't a clue.

every government has the right to gather an army. and if people are paid, it's not slavery. paul is a wacko.

It isn't if they aren't paid, either...doesn't the government have a constitutional mandate to defend the country? There is nothing in the constitution that says the government cannot force everyone to serve as a requirement of citizenship.

 

[editec]

Do Americans owe ANYTHING to their nation?

If so, what do we owe this nation?

According to some people here, no we owe nothing to this land.

We don't owe taxes because taxes are slavery

And we don't owe military service because military service is slavery.

So apparently, they believe either that nations themselves are a terrible idea, or that nations can exist without armies OR taxes.

And they think that socialists and communists are idealists?

Seems to me that if you believe that a national identity is a good thing, that you also have to take the bitter with the sweet and accept that the citizens of that nation must do something to support it.

EDITEC'S MODEST PROPOSAL FOR NATIONAL SERVICE​

People can support that nation in one of two ways...either by their labor, or by their money (which after all, only represents labor of the past)


If you work for two of years on some national service project, you get:

1. Some minimum salary and health care (sort of the military model)

AND

2. A tax credit equal to the average family salary for a year for every year in public service.

Right now that would mean that a two year stint in national servicew would bring you $116,000 in FUTURE tax credits.

OR...

Alternatively, a two year stint in national service could be rewarded with four years of complete tuition and expenses paid for any college or approval educational institute in the USA that you can get into.

OR...

And since I KNOW that many of you are wealthy enough that two years out of the harness would cost you MORE than it would most of us, how about adding the following?

If one elects NOT to enter nation service for two years, you can PAY $116,000 in lieu of service.

There, now the silver-spoonfed chickenhawk class don't have to lie about those flat feet to keep out thier nancyboy asses out of harms way like they usually did when the draft was in place.

They just pay some po' boy to take their place, instead.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

A draft is legal and is not unconstitutional in any way. It is not slavery nor is it indentured service. However a draft had better have a clear and pressing need and a fair and equitable method of deciding who serves and who is not required.

There is absolutely no reason for the US to initiate a draft now or in the foreseeable future. If the Military needs to be larger ( which I believe it does) then it should be done through the all volunteer system we have now.

The Government has the right to call up the people for MILITARY service, but no legal Constitutional right to call up people for non military service.

Even though the States no longer maintain militias, the Constitution is clear that it considers the body of the population of every State to be available for MILITARY service as needed.

If Obama tries to create a Civilian draft for community services he has no Constitutional authority to do so. Individual States could call up their militias for purposes that are not just related to war, not so the Federal Government.

So the solution would be to convince the States to create these supposed civil or community service drafts with clear and legal reasons for doing so within the construct of the States Constitution. However the Federal Government can not force any State to do so. Neither Congress, the Courts or the President have the Constitutional authority for such action.

Unless Obama creates an Amendment to the Constitution that usurps the power of the States in this regard he has no authority.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

This is a power the Congress has..

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Article I Section 8.

From the same section...

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

The President's power is such..

The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

Article II Section 2


Now unless one can find a REASON that a civilian force would be needed to ENFORCE the laws of the Republic the above is pretty damn clear.

The United States Constitution - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

 

[RodISHI]

Do Americans owe ANYTHING to their nation?

If so, what do we owe this nation?

According to some people here, no we owe nothing to this land.

We don't owe taxes because taxes are slavery

And we don't owe military service because military service is slavery.

So apparently, they believe either that nations themselves are a terrible idea, or that nations can exist without armies OR taxes.

And they think that socialists and communists are idealists?

Seems to me that if you believe that a national identity is a good thing, that you also have to take the bitter with the sweet and accept that the citizens of that nation must do something to support it.

EDITEC'S MODEST PROPOSAL FOR NATIONAL SERVICE​

People can support that nation in one of two ways...either by their labor, or by their money (which after all, only represents labor of the past)


If you work for two of years on some national service project, you get:

1. Some minimum salary and health care (sort of the military model)

AND

2. A tax credit equal to the average family salary for a year for every year in public service.

Right now that would mean that a two year stint in national servicew would bring you $116,000 in FUTURE tax credits.

OR...

Alternatively, a two year stint in national service could be rewarded with four years of complete tuition and expenses paid for any college or approval educational institute in the USA that you can get into.

OR...

And since I KNOW that many of you are wealthy enough that two years out of the harness would cost you MORE than it would most of us, how about adding the following?

If one elects NOT to enter nation service for two years, you can PAY $116,000 in lieu of service.

There, now the silver-spoonfed chickenhawk class don't have to lie about those flat feet to keep out thier nancyboy asses harms way, either.

They just pay some po' boy to take their place, instead.

That seems fairly well thought out editec but, here is what I see.

In order to create a more balanced social structure where people realize we are all actually equals. (Even though some are mentally or physically different we all must put a pair of pants on one leg at a time.)

Your proposal could possibly create a stronger seperation in the classes rather than join them together on common ground.

If there is a draft it needs to be one that treats all that are called up in an equal manner.

I do believe that everyone that lives in this country has certain duties to defend and protect it. If we were blessed with by being born here or if anyone is allowed to live here we have certain obligations.

This country is wasting it's best national resource, it's people. We have children both in cities and rural settings that have virtually no goals. Why is that?

Any national draft should include all with no preference given to wealth or family political status. The only ones that should be excluded from that should be the mentally or physically handicapped.

 

[editec]

That seems fairly well thought out editec but, here is what I see.

In order to create a more balanced social structure where people realize we are all actually equals. (Even though some are mentally or physically different we all must put a pair of pants on one leg at a time.)

Yeah, but it never really worked out that way -- not even when we had a draft.

The scions typically got all the skate assignments.

Seriously, the military KNOWS who the scions are and all it takes is one master of the universe to call a congressman to see to it that theeir kids get those cush assignments )or whatever asignment they want)

Look, do you really think that Bush II would have been selected to be a jet jocky had he been a nobody?

Your proposal could possibly create a stronger seperation in the classes rather than join them together on common ground.

True. But my suggestion is based on the fact of my previous thoughts on the military as I knew it, and the fact that we are never going to deal with the classism of this nation UNTIL we admit it exists anyway.

If there is a draft it needs to be one that treats all that are called up in an equal manner.

I'd love to see that happen. I just don't think it EVER will.

I do believe that everyone that lives in this country has certain duties to defend and protect it. If we were blessed with by being born here or if anyone is allowed to live here we have certain obligations.

So do I.

This country is wasting it's best national resource, it's people. We have children both in cities and rural settings that have virtually no goals. Why is that?

Hopelessness based on how they see their parents getting fucked around would be my guess.

Any national draft should include all with no preference given to wealth or family political status. The only ones that should be excluded from that should be the mentally or physically handicapped.

Great idea in principle.

Sadly, in reality it had never worked out that way.

We ARE a classist society, and we'd be better off acknowledging it so we can then begin MITIGATING its pernicious effects.

 

[RodISHI]

Acknowledged on this end. Two is a start isn't editec? Now where to begin?

That "Hopelessness based on how they see their parents getting fucked around would be my guess." Can be covered in they see their grandparents getting "fucked". Our grandson burst into tears a few years ago when he and grandpaw had a flat while going fishing. They went to grandpaw's shop for they could get some tools. When he saw the shop had been emptied and grandpaw's tools were gone he just broke down. Children cannot understand the cruelty that adults can inflict on one another. While battling the beast that sought to consume us our grandchildren lost out. It was heart breaking yet how do you tell an eight year old about the major corporate fraud that is ruling the country in which they must now grow up in?

What would I give to be able to spend that quality time with them to heal the bitterness that now is consuming them? Whatever I can.

 

[michiganFats]

Rich kids aren't going to serve unless they want to, no matter what you do. Anyone who's served in Korea knows about the KATUSA's, we'd just have our American version. If we ever do require some sort of service, I'd rather see that service completed in the Guard, not in the Active Forces.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Obama nor Congress have any AUTHORITY to create a non military public service force that FORCES anyone to participate. You all do remember that little thing called the Constitution?

 

[RodISHI]

Rich kids aren't going to serve unless they want to, no matter what you do. Anyone who's served in Korea knows about the KATUSA's, we'd just have our American version. If we ever do require some sort of service, I'd rather see that service completed in the Guard, not in the Active Forces.

You may want to read this first: I been trying to note what was talked about yesterday as Rod reflects the meeting. Both this guy that spoke and his brother have served in the Guard.

Another issue that was brought up at the meeting yesterday was the status of our military.

A young man there speaking on behalf of his brother who is serving in Afghanistan on a third term of service through the Guard. In service to our country they have lost homes, farms, property, wives, family, children, buddies and friends.

"He gets home he thinks he is all done with his service after three stints only to find out he's been transferred out of state for service in the Guard to another state where he will be rotated back overseas".

Home family job security. Everybody else wants this and our military wants the same. They serve and others benefit. Yet on some of these sites schmucks want to take away more from our military. This should be stopped immediately by both parties on both sides of the aisle.

If we can't support our military, then don't expect them to support us.

The Guard from one state transferred to another state for more service overseas.

 

[elvis]

Obama nor Congress have any AUTHORITY to create a non military public service force that FORCES anyone to participate. You all do remember that little thing called the Constitution?

this civilian security force is frightening. It just sounds like the Gestapo.

 

[Modbert]

this civilian security force is frightening. It just sounds like the Gestapo.

Won't have to worry about that. We already have a military unit patrolling the U.S. streets. (All of that happened before the election).

 

[elvis]

this civilian security force is frightening. It just sounds like the Gestapo.

Won't have to worry about that. We already have a military unit patrolling the U.S. streets. (All of that happened before the election).

regardless of when it was implemented, it is still ominous.