Ok, if it's not heredity...

[Amanda]

I ask this because I see people in my very poor neighborhood that drive around in their Mercedes Benzs with 22" wheels and mouth full of gold and it kinda seems like money isn't exactly the problem. it seems more like it's a subculture that has embraced a set of values that don't lead to living truly successful lives... unless you count dying young or going to prison as success.

I'm sure that those people driving around in Mercedes Benzs with mouthfuls of gold are not well educated executives.

Not all successful people are. My point was that getting money didn't seem to be an insurmountable problem, yet we still see numbers for homicide and imprisonment completely out of proportion in some demographics.

 

[xotoxi]

I ask this because I see people in my very poor neighborhood that drive around in their Mercedes Benzs with 22" wheels and mouth full of gold and it kinda seems like money isn't exactly the problem. it seems more like it's a subculture that has embraced a set of values that don't lead to living truly successful lives... unless you count dying young or going to prison as success.

I'm sure that those people driving around in Mercedes Benzs with mouthfuls of gold are not well educated executives.

Not all successful people are. My point was that getting money didn't seem to be an insurmountable problem, yet we still see numbers for homicide and imprisonment completely out of proportion in some demographics.

However, the homocide and reasons for imprisonment are directly linked the money that some of these people have.

 

[Amanda]

Hmmm... so when do we get to stop trying to pay for the sins of the past and move on? Are we just looking for the right social program and haven't found it yet?

Who's paying for sins?

And who is advocating paying for sins?

Not me...unless paying for sins is investing in education.

I think education is the key...the only key...to everything.

And I truly don't think that education is an expensive investment...and of all investments we could make, it has the best return.

Who is paying for it? All of us. I can't suggest a solution without being labelled racist. Current policies don't seem to be having the desired effect... in fact it looks to me like it might be just the opposite. So yeah, as a society we are paying big time.

Education, huh? Well you know what they say about leading horses to water. Why do so many scholarships aimed at minority students go unclaimed? If people were clamoring to improve themselves through education no scholarships should ever go unclaimed.

 

[xotoxi]

Who is paying for it? All of us. I can't suggest a solution without being labelled racist. Current policies don't seem to be having the desired effect... in fact it looks to me like it might be just the opposite. So yeah, as a society we are paying big time.

I won't label you a racist. But I do think that all of us should pay for it. I consider it an investment in our future and our country. And I'm not talking about extravagance...I'm talking about schools that are safe, books and supplies that are in good repair, and good teachers that inspire kids to learn and want to learn.

I'm not talking about a handout.

Education, huh? Well you know what they say about leading horses to water. Why do so many scholarships aimed at minority students go unclaimed? If people were clamoring to improve themselves through education no scholarships should ever go unclaimed.

I really don't care about post-secondary education. Scholarships are not claimed because minorities don't get to the point of claiming scholarships. This is because they dropout well before then.

It all starts in first grade. And, don't get me wrong...most of it is in the home. kids that don't have good support in the home won't do well in school. But there is nothing that we as a society can do to mandate change in that. We can, however, make improvements in the education system.

 

[Amanda]

Who is paying for it? All of us. I can't suggest a solution without being labelled racist. Current policies don't seem to be having the desired effect... in fact it looks to me like it might be just the opposite. So yeah, as a society we are paying big time.

I won't label you a racist. But I do think that all of us should pay for it. I consider it an investment in our future and our country. And I'm not talking about extravagance...I'm talking about schools that are safe, books and supplies that are in good repair, and good teachers that inspire kids to learn and want to learn.

I'm not talking about a handout.

Education, huh? Well you know what they say about leading horses to water. Why do so many scholarships aimed at minority students go unclaimed? If people were clamoring to improve themselves through education no scholarships should ever go unclaimed.

I really don't care about post-secondary education. Scholarships are not claimed because minorities don't get to the point of claiming scholarships. This is because they dropout well before then.

It all starts in first grade. And, don't get me wrong...most of it is in the home. kids that don't have good support in the home won't do well in school. But there is nothing that we as a society can do to mandate change in that. We can, however, make improvements in the education system.

I think you just made my point.

I graduated from high school... somehow. I didn't get through because I was smart but being dumb didn't stop me either. Basically I showed up most days. That's all. I didn't do homework. I never did any of the big projects they assigned. I slept in class or talked to my friends. And yet somehow here I am. I live by myself. I pay my own way. I'm going to be successful. I blew off all the opportunity that I think you'd like to give to people to lift them up and it didn't make any difference at all.

What is the diff then? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with embracing a culture that doesn't have respect for traditional measures of success. Instead it's about fat gold chains and pimped out rides and killing anyone that doesn't respect you. It's about having a baby in your teens or going to prison as status symbols. It's about gang affiliation and how much of a bad muthafucka you are.

 

[xotoxi]

I think you just made my point.

I graduated from high school... somehow. I didn't get through because I was smart but being dumb didn't stop me either. Basically I showed up most days. That's all. I didn't do homework. I never did any of the big projects they assigned. I slept in class or talked to my friends. And yet somehow here I am. I live by myself. I pay my own way. I'm going to be successful. I blew off all the opportunity that I think you'd like to give to people to lift them up and it didn't make any difference at all.

Clearly you are far smarter than the average "just barely" high school graduate. You are articulate and thoughtful. Most of the "just barelys" that I know are not posting on political message boards about social issues.

Therefore, had there been stronger impetus in your life, a stronger encouragement for education, a stronger emphasis on education, you may have done more than "just barely" graduated.

What would that have been? And what could I...meaning society...have done to help you with this?

Remember...for every "just barely graduated Amanda" that makes something of their lives because they are inherently smart, there are probably 10 "just barely" graduated Shaniqua or Tammy or Bambi that is NOT inherently smart, and did NOT take anything of substance out of their educational experiences, and is NOT working and just looking for their next babydaddy so they can increase their monthly state check.

Don't you think we should invest a little early to maybe prevent the latter from happening?

 

[Epsilon Delta]

The difference is due to the centuries of slavery and institutionalized second-class citizenship status that the black community was subjected to throughout American History, until relatively recently (~50 or so years?). I mean, the effects of these disparities accumulate over time. After those centuries of oppression there has been much progress, but the effects are still highly visible. The real problem is the poverty, which has a tendency to perpetuate itself. This is exacerbated by the fact that there were never any real, however minimal, reparations package [which would've at least attempted to close some of the gap and provide a more level playing field where cooperation and not oppression might've had a better chance of succeeding between the races]. The black community was literally released to the wild; it emerged from the ashes of a long and brutal twilight of industrial slavery, which certainly must've had negative effects on civil society from the get-go, and which were no doubt made even worse by the very real continuation of that twilight by the subservient caste status (undeniable second-class citizenship) all the way up to the civil rights struggles of the early 50s to late 60s. That's hundreds of years! So of course this must've had a deep impact on blacks at the time, and those effects have reverberated till today.

And it happens- just look at the Native Americans- some of the most downtrodden people in history; totally annihilated by war and disease, suffered through terrible attrocities, displacement, even government policy which attempted to "whiten" them by virtually kidnapping their children and banning them from speaking their language and practicing their customs? A real genocide, and a real shame all over the continent (Costa Rica no doubt included). And look at them today- high suicide rates, alcoholism rates, all sorts of social problems. How can that NOT be expected, all things taken into account?

I mean, to be honest, haven't we learned by now what thinking that there are "inferior races" can lead to? Don't we ever learn? Especially when the explanation is right there, in the history books. It's almost ludicrous to deny nowadays that people from every race and creed can pretty much compete in category. That's what's so hard for me to believe. When I sit and think whether I'm part of the master race I think to myself- But wait- there's millions and millions of people (all around the world, of every conceivable hue and background) who are several magnitudes more talented, athletic, intelligent, high-achieving, honored (and most things you could think of) than me! Fuck, how does that work? If people of every background have accomplished SO MUCH MORE in every single field than I have? Could anyone here seriously claim that they are by far more accomplished/talented/intelligent than EVERY member of another race? Well, let's see those PhDs, boys, and take out those instruments.

 

[eots]

it has something to do with this...whitey is a bad ass mofo...dont fuck with em

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwQbPgouUYo]YouTube - House Of pain - Jump Around Music Video last one on youtube[/ame]

 

[xsited1]

Hmmm... so when do we get to stop trying to pay for the sins of the past and move on? Are we just looking for the right social program and haven't found it yet?

Who's paying for sins?

And who is advocating paying for sins?

Not me...unless paying for sins is investing in education.

I think education is the key...the only key...to everything.

And I truly don't think that education is an expensive investment...and of all investments we could make, it has the best return.

That's nice that you think that education is the key. I also believe that education is extremely important. However, it doesn't really answer the question Amanda asked. I realize that discussing genetic differences between races is taboo in our society, but there are genetic differences nonetheless. What would be nice is if people would stop silencing anyone with a genuine interest in studying genetic differences between groups of people. As it stands now, all anyone has to do is call someone a 'racist' and the conversation is over. Sad.

 

[Luissa]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

it is called envirnment and you can have an asian female have for of the same DNA markers with a white women than an asian man. Skin color only has to do with pigmentation and the amount of vitamin d your ancestors needed to absorb. Take sociology race and ethnic relations, it will explain it all.
The only reason people from african orgin have more of a chance of getting cycle cell anemia is because their ancestor developed an immunity to malaria and so on.

 

[xsited1]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

it is called envirnment and you can have an asian female have for of the same DNA markers with a white women than an asian man. Skin color only has to do with pigmentation and the amount of vitamin d your ancestors needed to absorb. Take sociology race and ethnic relations, it will explain it all.
The only reason people from african orgin have more of a chance of getting cycle cell anemia is because their ancestor developed an immunity to malaria and so on.

Environment is certainly a factor, but we are talking about groups of people that have been relatively isolated from one another for thousands of years. Take for instance, Asians. Now, sure, their skin color, body features, etc., are different from other races, but could it be possible that their brains are wired up differently from other races as well? I'm not saying this is good or bad, right or wrong, that they are smarter or dumber, etc. I'm just considering the possibility that there might be differences in brain function between races, whatever those might be. Unfortunately, this type of research is frowned upon by the world community, so there is a very limited amount of data.

 

[Gunny]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Differences? Oh no!

An observation is not proof of causation. Malnourished children will do poorly on tests. Children of poverty tend to end up in prison. Therefore, black people are nothing but stupid criminals? Just look at them!

I don't think so.

It's not that race has nothing to do with anything, it just is what it is. It's probably more like the entire human race needs to overcome the reality of it's racial history and proceed to record some new observations.

Your response doesn't address what she posted.

There is no human "race." Humans are a species.

 

[Luissa]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

it is called envirnment and you can have an asian female have for of the same DNA markers with a white women than an asian man. Skin color only has to do with pigmentation and the amount of vitamin d your ancestors needed to absorb. Take sociology race and ethnic relations, it will explain it all.
The only reason people from african orgin have more of a chance of getting cycle cell anemia is because their ancestor developed an immunity to malaria and so on.

Environment is certainly a factor, but we are talking about groups of people that have been relatively isolated from one another for thousands of years. Take for instance, Asians. Now, sure, their skin color, body features, etc., are different from other races, but could it be possible that their brains are wired up differently from other races as well? I'm not saying this is good or bad, right or wrong, that they are smarter or dumber, etc. I'm just considering the possibility that there might be differences in brain function between races, whatever those might be. Unfortunately, this type of research is frowned upon by the world community, so there is a very limited amount of data.

it has to do with envirnment in all cases but I do think that can have an affect on geneics. If you have anyone in your family that was an alcoholic you are more likely to become an alcoholic. Just how if you have a history of cancer in your family you are more likely to get cancer.
Humans are more similar to each other than any other animal on the planet, when it comes to DNA it does not matter what ethnic group you belong to. I could have more of the same DNA characteristics to Oprah than The Bass does. That is why it always comes down to your envirnment. Asian people might be smarter and do better in some area but it comes down to the envirnment which I think can because of their ancestors envirnment and not even their's.
I wish I could remember the name of this documantary I watched in my sociology class last semister that explains it all and where these high school kids tested their DNA. Of course they went into thinking they would be more similar to someone of their own race in their class but in the end they were proven wrong. I will have to google!

 

[strollingbones]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

I don't know, why do you think there is a higher number of natives in Canadian prisons? Why are Asians so smart? Is it an genetic or cultural 'thing'?

soy sauce--I swear it's the soy sauce.

ooops--my bad---soy makes you a homo---never mind.

close but no cigar..it was tofu that makes you gay...

 

[Ravi]

Differences in education, which stem from differences in wealth, which stem from a multitude of other causes. The average Hispanic person may be poorer than the average white person, for example, because many Hispanic people are relatively recent immigrants from poor countries. The average black person may be poorer because of centuries of racism. Even after the slaves were emancipated and blacks were given more political rights, they were victims of racially motivated de facto segregation that forced those who lived in urban areas into poor ghettos. Living in an impoverished area tends to lead to a lower value for education, which, in turn, leads to low educational achievement and more poverty. It's a vicious cycle that can be incredibly difficult to escape.

Poverty breeds crime, poor educational performance, and more poverty.

I think this pretty much explains it. Black children are slowly increasing their test scores at school as a group. I think we can conclude one of two things from that. 1. What you posted is correct and there is no racial element to intelligent, merely a poverty connection. 2. Black people are evolving right before our eyes, becoming more intelligent by the year...more proof of evolution.

 

[strollingbones]

isnt this all fancy talk for...if stupid people breed? do we have more stupid people? i see no difference in the black crack head or the white meth addict.. it is a combo of all factors...breeding being the basic one..why is it we are willing to study the effects of breeding in animals but not in humans. you cannot take a stupid child and advance it with good enviroment..wont happen....when you have people with iq's boarding on mental retardation breeding then you will expland that pool....enivroment does play a lot but you do have to begin with an even playing field...

now before you go all to hell on me..about selective breeding being nazi shit and all..think about it..
just because a fact is not politically correct does not make it less of a fact...if stupid people breed you got more stupid people...i am not advocating any programs or anything ..just stating a basic fact...

 

[jillian]

Who is paying for it? All of us. I can't suggest a solution without being labelled racist. Current policies don't seem to be having the desired effect... in fact it looks to me like it might be just the opposite. So yeah, as a society we are paying big time.

Education, huh? Well you know what they say about leading horses to water. Why do so many scholarships aimed at minority students go unclaimed? If people were clamoring to improve themselves through education no scholarships should ever go unclaimed.

where is your proof that scholarship money for minorities goes unclaimed or unclaimed in any greater proportion than other available scholarships?

 

[jillian]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Differences? Oh no!

An observation is not proof of causation. Malnourished children will do poorly on tests. Children of poverty tend to end up in prison. Therefore, black people are nothing but stupid criminals? Just look at them!

I don't think so.

It's not that race has nothing to do with anything, it just is what it is. It's probably more like the entire human race needs to overcome the reality of it's racial history and proceed to record some new observations.

I can appreciate that, but still it makes me wonder where your pretty moderate view is in some of the other threads where libs are calling cons racist. As a conservative I want everyone to have an equal chance to achieve whatever they can achieve on their own merit and I get called a racist for being against state sponsored racism like affirmative action.

what wasn't "moderate" in her comment?

 

[Ravi]

isnt this all fancy talk for...if stupid people breed? do we have more stupid people? i see no difference in the black crack head or the white meth addict.. it is a combo of all factors...breeding being the basic one..why is it we are willing to study the effects of breeding in animals but not in humans. you cannot take a stupid child and advance it with good enviroment..wont happen....when you have people with iq's boarding on mental retardation breeding then you will expland that pool....enivroment does play a lot but you do have to begin with an even playing field...

now before you go all to hell on me..about selective breeding being nazi shit and all..think about it..
just because a fact is not politically correct does not make it less of a fact...if stupid people breed you got more stupid people...i am not advocating any programs or anything ..just stating a basic fact...

Where is your evidence that stupidity is hereditary? And mental retardation isn't hereditary, btw.

As tempting as it would be to eliminate stupid people (republicans, for example) from the gene pool by preventing them from breeding, it would be both unconstitutional and it wouldn't work.

 

[Diuretic]

Let's assume for a moment that despite SOOOO many obvious physical differences between races that race has nothing to do with anything...

Then why DO we see differences in things like standardized testing, prison population, etc?

Culture. Environment. That's it. Standardised testing is culturally biased. I used to think IQ tests were great until I failed them...okay just kidding, I didn't fail them, I just didn't come up as smart as I thought I was (anyone who uses that against me has been warned, I WILL savage you mercilessly). Now I don't like them because I understand how culturally biased they are.

Okay, waiting for the wingnuts to descend on the thread. Fill your minds you sonsa bitches