Oil refineries?

[RodISHI]

Does anyone recall what happened with the majority of America's oil refineries?

I recall talking to an oil refinery engineer in the year 2000. He was hot about the American domestic refineries selling out to Canada in the late 90's. The man told me that people would not realize the damage to our economy concerning quiet sellout until later.

When hurricane Katrina hit the remaining refineries in the Gulf states took a heavy hit.

Combine the earlier sellout and the hurricane Katrina hit and you have the end result that we are seeing today. The USA no longer has the domestic refining capabilities worth mentioning. While we are at it, let's not forget the environmental idiots. Who the hell can afford to do business when you wind up in court for fifty years with a bunch of environmental extremists? I guess environmental extremism is just as bad as any other extremism. If a money grubbing capitalist was considering holding out maybe the Exxon Valdez, hurricane Katrina and other similar events make a cheap sale highly desirable?

Nobody wants to get dirty. "I ain't having no nasty oil refinery in my community" said the millions of environmentally conscious special interest groups and the office type guru's. Heaven forbid if the office crowd has to drive by some nasty oil refinery on their way into the office.

 

[alan1]

Does anyone recall what happened with the majority of America's oil refineries?

I recall talking to an oil refinery engineer in the year 2000. He was hot about the American domestic refineries selling out to Canada in the late 90's. The man told me that people would not realize the damage to our economy concerning quiet sellout until later.

When hurricane Katrina hit the remaining refineries in the Gulf states took a heavy hit.

Combine the earlier sellout and the hurricane Katrina hit and you have the end result that we are seeing today. The USA no longer has the domestic refining capabilities worth mentioning. While we are at it, let's not forget the environmental idiots. Who the hell can afford to do business when you wind up in court for fifty years with a bunch of environmental extremists? I guess environmental extremism is just as bad as any other extremism. If a money grubbing capitalist was considering holding out maybe the Exxon Valdez, hurricane Katrina and other similar events make a cheap sale highly desirable?

Nobody wants to get dirty. "I ain't having no nasty oil refinery in my community" said the millions of environmentally conscious special interest groups and the office type guru's. Heaven forbid if the office crowd has to drive by some nasty oil refinery on their way into the office.

That also begs the questions, when was the last time a new refinery was built in the US? When was the last time a nuclear power plant was built in the US?
We can't have energy independence if (as a country) we decide to not invest in creating energy.

 

[Annie]

Does anyone recall what happened with the majority of America's oil refineries?

I recall talking to an oil refinery engineer in the year 2000. He was hot about the American domestic refineries selling out to Canada in the late 90's. The man told me that people would not realize the damage to our economy concerning quiet sellout until later.

When hurricane Katrina hit the remaining refineries in the Gulf states took a heavy hit.

Combine the earlier sellout and the hurricane Katrina hit and you have the end result that we are seeing today. The USA no longer has the domestic refining capabilities worth mentioning. While we are at it, let's not forget the environmental idiots. Who the hell can afford to do business when you wind up in court for fifty years with a bunch of environmental extremists? I guess environmental extremism is just as bad as any other extremism. If a money grubbing capitalist was considering holding out maybe the Exxon Valdez, hurricane Katrina and other similar events make a cheap sale highly desirable?

Nobody wants to get dirty. "I ain't having no nasty oil refinery in my community" said the millions of environmentally conscious special interest groups and the office type guru's. Heaven forbid if the office crowd has to drive by some nasty oil refinery on their way into the office.

Been a long time for major oil refinery being built:

Crude Oil FAQs - Energy Information Administration

Question: When was the last refinery built in the United States?
The “newest” refinery in the United States began operating in 1998 in Atmore, Alabama. But the newest significant (or sophisticated) refinery began operating in 1977 in Garyville, Louisiana.

Capacity has also been added to existing refineries through upgrades or new construction. The most recent examples include:

Orion Refinery massively upgraded and reopened in 1998 in Good Hope, Louisiana a small, simple refinery that originally opened in 1967 (now owned by Valero).
Valero opened a "new" and very sophisticated refinery in 1983 in Corpus Christi, TX, on the site of a simple refinery that originally opened in 1975....

 

[Vel]

I had heard someone propose building refineries on closed military bases to help bypass the environuts. It seems like a plan to me.

 

[edthecynic]

Does anyone recall what happened with the majority of America's oil refineries?

I recall talking to an oil refinery engineer in the year 2000. He was hot about the American domestic refineries selling out to Canada in the late 90's. The man told me that people would not realize the damage to our economy concerning quiet sellout until later.

When hurricane Katrina hit the remaining refineries in the Gulf states took a heavy hit.

Combine the earlier sellout and the hurricane Katrina hit and you have the end result that we are seeing today. The USA no longer has the domestic refining capabilities worth mentioning. While we are at it, let's not forget the environmental idiots. Who the hell can afford to do business when you wind up in court for fifty years with a bunch of environmental extremists? I guess environmental extremism is just as bad as any other extremism. If a money grubbing capitalist was considering holding out maybe the Exxon Valdez, hurricane Katrina and other similar events make a cheap sale highly desirable?

Nobody wants to get dirty. "I ain't having no nasty oil refinery in my community" said the millions of environmentally conscious special interest groups and the office type guru's. Heaven forbid if the office crowd has to drive by some nasty oil refinery on their way into the office.

Typical CON$ervative brainwashing!
It's the oil companies, not the environmentalists, that are blocking any new refineries and closing old ones to keep gas prices high.

Myths and Facts about Oil Refineries in the United States

The Bush administration and some members of Congress blame environmental rules for causing strains on refining capacity, prompting shortages and driving up prices. But in reality, it is uncompetitive actions by a handful of companies with large control over our nation’s gas markets that is directly causing these high prices.

Myth 1: Oil refineries are not being built in the U.S. because environmental regulations, particularly the Clean Air Act, are so bureaucratic and burdensome that refiners cannot get permits.

Fact: Environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries.[1]

Myth 2: The U.S. oil refinery market is competitive.

Fact: Actually, industry consolidation is limiting competition in oil refining sector. The largest five oil refiners in the United States (ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, BP, Valero and Royal Dutch Shell) now control over half (56.3%) of domestic oil refinery capacity; the top ten refiners control 83%. Only ten years ago, these top five oil companies only controlled about one-third (34.5%) of domestic refinery capacity; the top ten controlled 55.6%. This dramatic increase in the control of just the top five companies makes it easier for oil companies to manipulate gasoline supplies by intentionally withholding supplies in order to drive up prices. Indeed, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concluded in March 2001 that oil companies had intentionally withheld supplies of gasoline from the market as a tactic to drive up prices—all as a “profit-maximizing strategy.” A May 2004 U.S. Governmental Accountability Office (GAO) report also found that mergers in the oil industry directly led to higher prices—and this report did not even include the large mergers after the year 2000, such as ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips. Yet, just one week after Hurricane Katrina, the FTC approved yet another merger of refinery giants—Valero Energy and Premcor—giving Valero 13% of the national market share. These actions, while costing consumers billions of dollars in overcharges, have not been challenged by the U.S. government.

Published on Friday, June 15, 2001 by the Associated Press
Leaked Oil Industry Memo Suggests Bid to Curb Refinery Output
by H. Josef Hebert

Even as the Bush administration cites a lack of refineries as a cause of energy shortages, oil industry documents show that five years ago companies were looking for ways to cut refinery output to raise profits.
The internal memos involving several major oil companies were released Thursday by Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., whose office obtained them from a whistleblower. He said the materials did not necessarily reflect any illegal activities but said some of them "sure look very anticompetitive."

In response, Red Cavaney, the president of an industry trade group, said: "This finger pointing six years into the past serves no useful purpose."

Wyden was turning the material over to the Governmental Affairs Committee, which plans hearings on oil industry practices and energy prices.

Tight gasoline supplies have been cited repeatedly by the industry and the White House as a primary reason for soaring gasoline prices this year.

While pump prices have eased recently, the cost of gasoline jumped an average of 31 cents a gallon nationwide during the seven weeks ending in mid-May, according to government figures presented at a House hearing Thursday.

Because it takes about four years to build a large refinery, planning for a new plant would have had to begin by the mid-1990s, energy experts say. There has not been a new refinery build in the United States in 25 years; in the meantime, dozens of small ones have closed.

The documents obtained by Wyden's office suggest that in the mid-1990s oil companies had no interest in building refineries because of low profit margins. In fact, companies were discussing the need to curtail refinery output in order to make more money, the documents suggest.

"If the U.S. petroleum industry doesn't reduce its refining capacity, it will never see any substantial increase in refinery margins (profits)," said an internal Chevron document in November 1995, citing views presented by participants at an American Petroleum Institute conference.

A year later, an official at Texaco, in a memo marked "highly confidential," called concerns about too much refinery capacity "the most critical factor" facing the refinery industry. Excess capacity is producing "very poor refining financial results," the memo said.

Wyden said the documents "raise significant questions about whether America's oil companies tried to pull off a financial triple play – boosting profits by reducing refinery capacity, tagging consumers with higher pump prices and then arguing for environmental rollbacks."

The institute produced statistics showing refinery capacity has increased since 1996 as refineries became more efficient and some expanded. The figures also showed capacity increasing slower than demand.

Cavaney, the institute's president, said the industry's reluctance to invest in new refinery capacity when profit margins are low and supplies are adequate – as was the case in the mid-1990s – was "a normal response in a commodity market."

Wyden singled out a 1996 memo from Mobil Corp., which has since merged with Exxon, that suggests that Mobil was ready for a "full court press" to make sure an independent California refinery, which had closed in 1995, would not reopen.

At the time Mobil was concerned that if the refinery, owned by the Powerine Oil Co., resumed production it might force down the price of a special, cleaner burning gasoline by as much as 3 cents.

"Needless to say, we would all like to see Powerine stay down," the memo said. "Full court press is warranted in this case." The refinery remained closed.

Texaco spokeswoman Keelin Molloi said Wyden's allegations "divert attention away from legitimate policy questions" about energy needs.

As for the 1995 Texaco memo, she said: "Within any company, discussions about the margins and capacity are conducted in a normal course of business and in no way constitutes inappropriate or illegal behavior."

Chevron spokesman Fred Gorell said the company "flatly denies any improper conduct involving refinery production levels or gasoline pricing."

Attempts to reach ExxonMobil were unsuccessful.

The need for more refinery capacity has been the focus of President Bush's energy plan. Vice President Dick Cheney has blamed gasoline prices increases on tight supplies caused to a large part, he contends, by the fact that the last new U.S. refinery was built in 1976.

In fact, 24 refineries – many of them small independents – have shut down since 1995, according to the Energy Department. That has accounted for the loss of 831,000 barrels a day of refining capacity. Individual refinery expansions at the same time have added 1 to 2 percent of capacity annually.

© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press

 

[editec]

Odd how those environmentalists have such control over the USA when it comes to oil refineries, isn't it?

I mean given how the environmentalists get their asses kicked in so many other areas, and all.

But somehow they prevent the most influential and powerful corporations in the world from getting their way.

Yeah, those damned environmentalists have stopped so many planned refineries.

Somebody want to name all those planned refineries that they environmentalists stopped from happening for us?

A list of all those legal battles that the environmentlaists won would be helpful.

Please list them all for us.

 

[strollingbones]

okay i will wade in here...the damage to the pristine prince william bay from the exxon valdez is still there....the reason a lot of people dont want oil refinieries in their areas...they tend to blow the fuck up....ask lake charles la about the one called the "fire cracker refinery" and btw chavez owes refinieries in the us...like everything else...now...someone else owns and runs it...face it people fossil fuels are not the path to the future...

 

[editec]

I'm still waiting for evidence that proves that many refineries that were planned were not build as a result of the environmentalists.

I think I'lll be waiting a long time because I cannot think of an example of any oil company planning a refinery which environmetalists ever stopped.

There must be many according to the apologists for the oil companies.

Where's the evidence to support this claim they make?

Does anyone has any?

 

[RodISHI]

Pages and pages of articles concerning oil refineries being halted and progress slowed to build refineries. Many of these are current and ongoing projects.



environmentalist stop refinery - Google Search




Coal to oil...Coal Gasification


PBS lesson plans exploring the history of oil...

For edthecynic.....
The Democrat Assault on American Energy


I'm not looking to place the blame on anyone here... It is obvious we have a problem that needs to be solved regardless of who did what when whether they be republican or democrat. It is all a money game for both environuts and corporates. It is the livelihood of the middle class to be able to be able to work, heat and cool their homes and the buy groceries that are grown in a field by a farmer that uses fuel operated equipment.

I watched a few homeowners stop a sand and gravel mining operation on the edge of Des Moines because they did not want their view impeded. Those few people drove the cost of building up for everyone. From the road construction to the average homeowner. I would have told them all "Sorry folks but the whole world does not revolve around you and you alone. When you get rich enough to buy all of the land that your home overlooks then you can say what is done with it."

 

[HUGGY]

I'm still waiting for evidence that proves that many refineries that were planned were not build as a result of the environmentalists.

I think I'lll be waiting a long time because I cannot think of an example of any oil company planning a refinery which environmetalists ever stopped.

There must be many according to the apologists for the oil companies.

Where's the evidence to support this claim they make?

Does anyone has any?

Don't hold your breath. The oil companies make obscene profits when the can claim they can't keep up with demand.

 

[k2skier]

I'm still waiting for evidence that proves that many refineries that were planned were not build as a result of the environmentalists.

I think I'lll be waiting a long time because I cannot think of an example of any oil company planning a refinery which environmetalists ever stopped.

There must be many according to the apologists for the oil companies.

Where's the evidence to support this claim they make?

Does anyone has any?

You wont find any. It's simple supply and demand, and when supply increases faster than demand prices drop. Another miserable fail on the repubs talking points...

Sure there have been some stopped by environmental concerns, but when you want to put one on a melting glacier-in old growth forest-in the middle of a wet land (thats one place) then there might be some resistance. Isn't that what Texas is for anyway, polluting with crude oil?

 

[Chris]

The big oil companies bought up all the small refineries so they could control the price.

Then the dumbass Republicans claim "no new refineries have been built."

Damn right. The oil companies don't want any new refineries.

 

[Chris]

Myth 1: Oil refineries are not being built in the U.S. because environmental regulations, particularly the Clean Air Act, are so bureaucratic and burdensome that refiners cannot get permits.

Fact: Environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries.[1]

Myth 2: The U.S. oil refinery market is competitive.

Fact: Actually, industry consolidation is limiting competition in oil refining sector. The largest five oil refiners in the United States (ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, BP, Valero and Royal Dutch Shell) now control over half (56.3%) of domestic oil refinery capacity; the top ten refiners control 83%. Only ten years ago, these top five oil companies only controlled about one-third (34.5%) of domestic refinery capacity; the top ten controlled 55.6%. This dramatic increase in the control of just the top five companies makes it easier for oil companies to manipulate gasoline supplies by intentionally withholding supplies in order to drive up prices. Indeed, the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concluded in March 2001 that oil companies had intentionally withheld supplies of gasoline from the market as a tactic to drive up prices—all as a “profit-maximizing strategy.” A May 2004 U.S. Governmental Accountability Office (GAO) report also found that mergers in the oil industry directly led to higher prices—and this report did not even include the large mergers after the year 2000, such as ChevronTexaco and ConocoPhillips. Yet, just one week after Hurricane Katrina, the FTC approved yet another merger of refinery giants—Valero Energy and Premcor—giving Valero 13% of the national market share. These actions, while costing consumers billions of dollars in overcharges, have not been challenged by the U.S. government.

Public Citizen | Energy Program | Energy Program - Myths and Facts about Oil Refineries in the United States

 

[FactFinder]

Chris,

Something we can generally agree on. You left out the relationships with hedge fund speculators and certain parts of government.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Pages and pages of articles concerning oil refineries being halted and progress slowed to build refineries. Many of these are current and ongoing projects.



environmentalist stop refinery - Google Search




Coal to oil...Coal Gasification


PBS lesson plans exploring the history of oil...

For edthecynic.....
The Democrat Assault on American Energy


I'm not looking to place the blame on anyone here... It is obvious we have a problem that needs to be solved regardless of who did what when whether they be republican or democrat. It is all a money game for both environuts and corporates. It is the livelihood of the middle class to be able to be able to work, heat and cool their homes and the buy groceries that are grown in a field by a farmer that uses fuel operated equipment.

I watched a few homeowners stop a sand and gravel mining operation on the edge of Des Moines because they did not want their view impeded. Those few people drove the cost of building up for everyone. From the road construction to the average homeowner. I would have told them all "Sorry folks but the whole world does not revolve around you and you alone. When you get rich enough to buy all of the land that your home overlooks then you can say what is done with it."

I guess we all MISSED this, RIGHT?

 

[FactFinder]

Gunny check the production cuts this year at the refineries. There is plenty of blame to go around.

 

[Citizen]

Pages and pages of articles concerning oil refineries being halted and progress slowed to build refineries. Many of these are current and ongoing projects.



environmentalist stop refinery - Google Search




Coal to oil...Coal Gasification


PBS lesson plans exploring the history of oil...

For edthecynic.....
The Democrat Assault on American Energy


I'm not looking to place the blame on anyone here... It is obvious we have a problem that needs to be solved regardless of who did what when whether they be republican or democrat. It is all a money game for both environuts and corporates. It is the livelihood of the middle class to be able to be able to work, heat and cool their homes and the buy groceries that are grown in a field by a farmer that uses fuel operated equipment.

I watched a few homeowners stop a sand and gravel mining operation on the edge of Des Moines because they did not want their view impeded. Those few people drove the cost of building up for everyone. From the road construction to the average homeowner. I would have told them all "Sorry folks but the whole world does not revolve around you and you alone. When you get rich enough to buy all of the land that your home overlooks then you can say what is done with it."

IMHO, coal to gas would be a great use of our abundant coal reserves, and coal gasification has already been used successfully by chemical companies to replace other feed stocks such as natural gas.

Tennessee Eastman Company is a prime example of coal gasification working now, not sometime in the future.