Oh...it's not a 'baby' or a 'person' - it's just a FETUS...a clump of tissue!

[rtwngAvngr]

Last i checked, longtime liberal countries in europe are far from barbarians, quality of life is high, poverty (due to single moms) is low, no babies found in dumpsters every other weekend.

Barbarity can be associated with witch hunts, and stoning people to death.

Again, freedom of religion must be granted for all. So baning abortion on that basis, is unconstitutional (not that i know anything about the US constitution, but it should be)

Of course banning abortion for other reasons can be acceptible:
1. Fetus feels pain.
2. Can think??

I don't think killing off future poor people is really the answer to poverty. I guess if you stem the flow of life, economic development isn't as important. You hide the failures of socialism with death.

Thou shalt not kill is also one of the ten commandments of moses, does that make laws againt murder "biblically based", therefore religously oppressive, therefore unconstitutional? You've been chewed up and spit out.

The evidense that fetuses are alive requires no faith whatsoever. Their life can be verified the same way we verify life outside the womb.

It's not a gender issue. It's a life/death issue.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

AJ's real name is Shirley. Damn I love the ignore feature.

 

[5stringJeff]

Yes, sex is an anti-depressant, "a temporary solution to all your problems", like, for example, playing strenuous sports, getting drunk, geting high, etc...

I don't think it's inane.

You hit the nail on the head (probably not on purpose though). Sex is a temporary solution to all your problems, just like getting drunk/high, etc. - and sex brings its own set of potential consequences, just like getting high or drunk. Failing to recognize those consequences is the height of immaturity. And using abortion as an escape from the consequences of sex is, IMO, not a behavior that we, as Americans, should accept.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Right On Jeff!

 

[ajwps]

God doesn't give clones souls?

You are again funny. There is no proof that of the existance of a soul. So how could G-d give something that no one can prove in the first place?

I used the clone example only to give musicman something to ponder over.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You are again funny. There is no proof that of the existance of a soul. So how could G-d give something that no one can prove in the first place?

I used the clone example only to give musicman something to ponder over.

We're talking about life, not "soul", but speaking of which, do you have a soul? You seem like nothing but a soulless advocate of baby murder.

 

[ajwps]

You hit the nail on the head (probably not on purpose though). Sex is a temporary solution to all your problems, just like getting drunk/high, etc. - and sex brings its own set of potential consequences, just like getting high or drunk. Failing to recognize those consequences is the height of immaturity. And using abortion as an escape from the consequences of sex is, IMO, not a behavior that we, as Americans, should accept.

I disagree with your premise that sex is a temporary solution to problems. Sex is natures way of continuing the species. It also feels good and therefore, it serves the function of keeping two people (usually opposite sexes) together for more than just companionship.

Outlawing sex, abortion or prostitution is a gesture in futility. In your humble opinion, you believe American's behavior (abortion) should not be acceptable.

Presumptuous to judge American's behavior for anything that doesn't affect society. Abortion is a personal decision and not a societal problem.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I disagree with your premise that sex is a temporary solution to problems. Sex is natures way of continuing the species. It also feels good and therefore, it serves the function of keeping two people (usually opposite sexes) together for more than just companionship.

Outlawing sex, abortion or prostitution is a gesture in futility. In your humble opinion, you believe American's behavior (abortion) should not be acceptable.

Presumptuous to judge American's behavior for anything that doesn't affect society. Abortion is a personal decision and not a societal problem.

With all due respect, ninny-boy. The context of gop-jeffs remarks is what's important, and is what you seem woefully ignorant of. His remarks should be contrasted with the canadian freak's, who insisted sex should be acceptable as something people do with whoever, whenever, for fun.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

AJ said,
Presumptuous to judge American's behavior for anything that doesn't affect society. Abortion is a personal decision and not a societal problem.

a personal decision that has an effect on society. It allows for the problem
to exist instead of correcting it. Abortion is not an effective solution.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Yes I am putting a lot of importance on the unborn baby as we all should! And what does having a pregnancy at a young age or one that is unplanned have to do with the health of the mother??? If a mother's life truly is in danger then yes her health should be put first, but not because she wants to go to prom. As far as rape goes, it still has nothing to do with the baby, why does the baby have to die? You know nothing about pro-life organizations, the Greenwood Foundation, National Right to Life, American Life League, and dozens of others do support pregnant women by providing money for doctor bills, a place to stay, and adoption services, some even provide money for further education for the mothers........So don't use that old excuse that there is no where for these" poor abandoned moms" to go other than to kill their BABY!!!! Thats horseshit!!!!
Your arguments are ridiculous and cliche' and don't have any merit...........

Adolescent pregnancies are high risk pregnancies for good reason. The mother's still developing body is torn between providing for the fetus and for the mother thus putting the health of the mother and the fetus at risk.

Rape is a crime of violence against the mother, leaving her physically and psychologically traumatized. Forcing her to carry such a pregnancy to term put her at risk both physically and psychologically. There is no justification for forcing her to carry such a pregnancy to term. Pregnancies reulting from rape are often terminated very early in the first trimester, well befor the fetus even vaguely resembles anything human. And yet again, you confuse such a fetus with a fully developed, newborn baby. It's not the same thing.

As for the so called "pro-life" organizations...they are mis-named. Overturning Roe v. Wade will deprive women of safe clinics where abortions can be performed. Instead, women will be forced, once more, to seek out back-alley abortionists, putting their live at risk of hemorhage and sepsis. If that's your idea of "pro-life" then I truly pity you, for you don't really know what life means.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Adolescent pregnancies are high risk pregnancies for good reason. The mother's still developing body is torn between providing for the fetus and for the mother thus putting the health of the mother and the fetus at risk.

Rape is a crime of violence against the mother, leaving her physically and psychologically traumatized. Forcing her to carry such a pregnancy to term put her at risk both physically and psychologically. There is no justification for forcing her to carry such a pregnancy to term. Pregnancies reulting from rape are often terminated very early in the first trimester, well befor the fetus even vaguely resembles anything human. And yet again, you confuse such a fetus with a fully developed, newborn baby. It's not the same thing.

As for the so called "pro-life" organizations...they are mis-named. Overturning Roe v. Wade will deprive women of safe clinics where abortions can be performed. Instead, women will be forced, once more, to seek out back-alley abortionists, putting their live at risk of hemorhage and sepsis. If that's your idea of "pro-life" then I truly pity you, for you don't really know what life means.

You deny life exists. Do you think the baby is alive at any point prior to birth?

 

[musicman]

AJ:
"It is hard to admit that you don't have any answer to my simple question. GOTCHA."

Your "simple question" requires treating the theoretical as fact. I have answered every honest question you have posed; you just don't like my answers. Your attempt to frame a debate on the actual in terms of the hypothetical is pure fantasy - as is your belief that you've somehow "gotten" me.

"The fact that science [has] already cloned human beings...".

I'm sorry, AJ - but, given your track record of shoddy(to say the least) presentation of "facts", I'm going to need to see some proof.

PROOF, mind you - not another interpretive gem from the files of "The World, Science, Scripture, and Everything Else, According to AJ". PROOF.

 

[ajwps]

AJ:
"It is hard to admit that you don't have any answer to my simple question. GOTCHA."

Your "simple question" requires treating the theoretical as fact. I have answered every honest question you have posed; you just don't like my answers. Your attempt to frame a debate on the actual in terms of the hypothetical is pure fantasy - as is your belief that you've somehow "gotten" me.

"The fact that science [has] already cloned human beings...".

I'm sorry, AJ - but, given your track record of shoddy(to say the least) presentation of "facts", I'm going to need to see some proof.

PROOF, mind you - not another interpretive gem from the files of "The World, Science, Scripture, and Everything Else, According to AJ". PROOF.

Obviously you missed the whole point. You want 'proof' that human cloning has ALREADY been accomplished. With the knowledge that each cell of the human body can potentially form a new life, you refuse to admit whether or not a genetic duplicate can have human life. The fact that accomplished cloning of animal life forms has no meaning to you, for animals also have a mamalian life.

Turn on your speakers and listen to a discussion of the techniques of human cloning and the inevitability of such an event happening somewhere by scientists who are willing to take this giant moral leap.

http://cloningdiscussion.homestead.com/Technique.html

 

[ajwps]

AJ said,
Presumptuous to judge American's behavior for anything that doesn't affect society. Abortion is a personal decision and not a societal problem.

a personal decision that has an effect on society. It allows for the problem
to exist instead of correcting it. Abortion is not an effective solution.

Joker96 could you explain exactly how you feel that a citizen's personal decision for or against abortion affects society?

Why is abortion a problem [to you]? Why must abortion need be corrected or have an effective solution?

What society makes it's business what a person decides about her or his own person?

 

[musicman]

AJ:

"You want proof that human cloning has ALREADY been accomplished."

Yes, I do. YOU STATED IT AS A FACT. You offered it as refutation of my points. You danced around gleefully as if you had sprung some devilishly clever trap. Once again, when you've been shut down by the truth, you've attempted to present the hypothetical as actual - and, when you got called on it, you tried to slither away with, "you missed my point." The truth is not in you, AJ. I DEFY you to get through one debate without resorting to these slimy tactics. I, personally, don't think you can do it.

 

[Bullypulpit]

You deny life exists. Do you think the baby is alive at any point prior to birth?

It is alive, but that life is entirely dependent upon the mother. Whether the fetus can be considered to have the same rights as the mother is the real question. And the answer is clearly no. The potential represented by the fetus can in no way trump the actual in the form of the health and life of the mother.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

It is alive, but that life is entirely dependent upon the mother. Whether the fetus can be considered to have the same rights as the mother is the real question. And the answer is clearly no. The potential represented by the fetus can in no way trump the actual in the form of the health and life of the mother.

Well, your partner in idiocy insists they're not alive. Babies are totally dependant on the mother too. Are their lives less important? You're beaten, bested, and dismissed. Two snaps up!

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I will happily debunk any other assinine, oversimplified, death justifying, litmus test anyone has to offer.

 

[JOKER96BRAVO]

Joker96 could you explain exactly how you feel that a citizen's personal decision for or against abortion affects society?

Why is abortion a problem [to you]? Why must abortion need be corrected or have an effective solution?

What society makes it's business what a person decides about her or his own person?

Here... I'll make it simple.
Boy meets girl
blah blah blah
They get an abortion.
Are they not a part of society???
Is that not one step further for social acceptance of abortion???
Have we allowed a young couple to believe that it is alright to
have all the careless sex in the world because you can always get an abortion???
What a "person" decides does have an effect on others around them, even if
you don't know it.

 

[Bonnie]

Here... I'll make it simple.
Boy meets girl
blah blah blah
They get an abortion.
Are they not a part of society???
Is that not one step further for social acceptance of abortion???
Have we allowed a young couple to believe that it is alright to
have all the careless sex in the world because you can always get an abortion???
What a "person" decides does have an effect on others around them, even if
you don't know it.

NONE of us live in a vacuum! We are on a very dangerous and slippery slope of deciding who get to live and who gets to die! Just that in and of itself is the catalyst that is going to help rip apart our country! When abortion was first made legal I don't think anyone thought it would lead to 2nd and 3rd trimester abortion AKA Patrial birth abortion.
But it has, it has also led to doctors deciding to pull the plug on people who at the moment may show no outward signs of life, but may actually recover as did my grandmother, thank God! It has led to physician assisted suicide, which has totally corrupted the medical profession who by its own oath collectively has sworn to protect all life. It has led to fathers not having ANY say in whether the child they fathered will live or die, even after they make the decision to take responsibility for raising the child. it has led to the killing of MILLIONS of helpless innocent babies who if were allowed to be born and adopted by families who actually want them, could have grown up become doctors and scientists themselves and maybe found cures for disease, including AIDS, Cancer etc. It haas led to many women being physically hurt and mentally scarred from the ramifications of their abortions, and having to live with that the rest of their lives, one of my best friends specifically. And in some states now, teens can get abortions without their parents even knowing about it or having a say...........ETC....................