Obama's Plan for America? Really!

[Navy1960]

Nice read Kirk on the Canadian Healthcare system, but my point is not so much the converage of indivuduals. The Health Care delivery system is a for profit business, and the majority of the uninsured losses that a hospital suffers are ER visits so I will give you that a Universal Health Care system might stop that. However, in the same system when you start talking about caps, what you will and won't pay for the service then the provider is basically in a no win situation. Give you an example, a drug company that makes a heart medicine and takes a precentage of the profits on that to invest in reasearch for new medications, if the all encompassing system all the sudden tells them you will get this much for drug A and this much for drug B then where do the research dollars come from? higher taxes again? The other thing I have noticed in reading about the Canadian system is the wait times involved in getting care seem to be way out of proportion to what they are here. Thats just an obervation

 

[Chris]

Nice read Kirk on the Canadian Healthcare system, but my point is not so much the converage of indivuduals. The Health Care delivery system is a for profit business, and the majority of the uninsured losses that a hospital suffers are ER visits so I will give you that a Universal Health Care system might stop that. However, in the same system when you start talking about caps, what you will and won't pay for the service then the provider is basically in a no win situation. Give you an example, a drug company that makes a heart medicine and takes a precentage of the profits on that to invest in reasearch for new medications, if the all encompassing system all the sudden tells them you will get this much for drug A and this much for drug B then where do the research dollars come from? higher taxes again? The other thing I have noticed in reading about the Canadian system is the wait times involved in getting care seem to be way out of proportion to what they are here. Thats just an obervation

If you read the link posted, the writer has been in both systems and says that the wait times in Canada depend on where you are. The more rural the area, the longer the wait time just like the U.S. I thought it was telling that when they did a poll of the greatest Canadian of all time, the Canadians chose the guy who developed their healthcare system! I asked my Canadian friends if they like their system, and they said they love it. Is it perfect? Of course not.

 

[Chris]

you only read things that go along with what you already believe.

most people usually look at the positives and negatives of an issue before they are sold on it.

If you read the link I provided, it has a list of the positives and the negatives of universal healthcare.

Every other Western democracy in the world has universal healthcare.

The Germans have had it since 1888!!!

 

[Navy1960]

I think its a very noble thing to want give healthcare to all people and if someone can convince me how it can be done without me having to pay for everyone else's healthcare i'm all ear's. I do believe that a state is better suited to handle the decision of healthcare for its residents than the Federal govt. is. but then again thats just an observation. I know several people that live in Canada as well and they too love their insurance but do not like their healthcare system, thats the reason they go over the Ambassador Bridge up there in Windsor to seek Health Care in the United States.

 

[Chris]

I think its a very noble thing to want give healthcare to all people and if someone can convince me how it can be done without me having to pay for everyone else's healthcare i'm all ear's. I do believe that a state is better suited to handle the decision of healthcare for its residents than the Federal govt. is. but then again thats just an observation. I know several people that live in Canada as well and they too love their insurance but do not like their healthcare system, thats the reason they go over the Ambassador Bridge up there in Windsor to seek Health Care in the United States.

I hate to tell you this, but we already have universal healthcare, just an expensive, bloated, patchwork, really bad version of it. A really, really, bad version of it.

 

[Ame®icano]

Bogus post.

Every other Western democracy in the world has universal healthcare, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because a single payer system has inherent cost savings.

You might think...

They do pay half, true. But their service sux, especially dental. UK's NHS is in bad shape, doctors simply don't care since their colegues in private hospitals are making much better money. Parallel with NHS, there are private insurances and healthcare that provide much better and faster service. But guess what, people are obligated to pay for NHS anyways. Canada is even worse, they are talking about allowing private insurances and practices again, since their present system, while free for everyone isn't working. And Canadian doctors, while blaming system for shortage of doctors, are not allowing foreign doctors to work unless they comply with ridiculous terms, designed to protect their doctor's benefits, which would drop if number of doctors rise. Only universal healthcare that looks functional is french, but they are facing similar problems as Canada, just on the smaller scale.

 

[Chris]

You might think...

They do pay half, true. But their service sux, especially dental. UK's NHS is in bad shape, doctors simply don't care since their colegues in private hospitals are making much better money. Parallel with NHS, there are private insurances and healthcare that provide much better and faster service. But guess what, people are obligated to pay for NHS anyways. Canada is even worse, they are talking about allowing private insurances and practices again, since their present system, while free for everyone isn't working. And Canadian doctors, while blaming system for shortage of doctors, are not allowing foreign doctors to work unless they comply with ridiculous terms, designed to protect their doctor's benefits, which would drop if number of doctors rise. Only universal healthcare that looks functional is french, but they are facing similar problems as Canada, just on the smaller scale.

Pretty much all lies.

Every other Western democracy has universal healthcare and their systems are functioning fine. There is always a give and take between money and service in any system. I don't thing the UK system is a good one for us because the doctors should own their own practices. A single payer system where there is only one insurance payer is the best.

 

[AllieBaba]

There ya go, Kirk. Keep putting that finger down the throat and regurgitating the crap you've been fed.

Eventually, however, you won't be able to control your impulse to vomit rhetoric and it will just happen all on its own, until one day, you won't be able to stop....

And that's when the state steps in and you have a little rest in the nut hatch.

 

[Paulie]

I don't care if universal health care is fucking divine providence, flawless down to the tiniest little specific.

It's morally wrong to TAKE other people's hard-earned money from their pockets to disburse to others, many of which REFUSE to work hard enough or work at ALL, so they can be provided with something they should provide for themselves.

That's the biggest problem. If you need health insurance that bad, work more. Someone is always hiring somewhere. If it has to be two different jobs at fucking fast food restaurants, then so be it. It is your duty to provide for yourself. It's not my duty to provide for you.

 

[DiamondDave]

Bogus post.

Every other Western democracy in the world has universal healthcare, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare. Why? Because a single payer system has inherent cost savings.

repeat much troll?

And this has also been blown out of the water.... you so conveniently leave out such great facts behind lesser costs such as less doctors per capita... lesser quality of treatment, equipment, number of hospitals, quality of hospitals, etc...

You can pay for manure at a fraction of the cost of steak... and you can save the money all you want when you are hungry and gorge on the manure to your heart's content... I'll stick with the steak

Also troll... you seem to want to neglect the personal responsibility of earning and paying for your own needs, such as healthcare... nobody owes it to you or anyone else... you want it, or Joe crackhead wants it, or Billy IDoNotWantAJobCuaseIDoNotLikeToWork wants is, do what you have to do to pay for it... government is not your mommy and neither is society

 

[Ame®icano]

Pretty much all lies.

Every other Western democracy has universal healthcare and their systems are functioning fine. There is always a give and take between money and service in any system. I don't thing the UK system is a good one for us because the doctors should own their own practices. A single payer system where there is only one insurance payer is the best.

Take it easy, hotshot. Unless you've lived most of your life overseas, as I did, you have no ground to accuse me of lying. Have you? Appology would be nice.

Beside, I red link you posted. It's pretty fair, but not completely correct. My work frequently takes me to Ontario, Canada and I do talk to people I work with. I would never take their system over ours, simply cause it's not working and it never will. But, if our government can provide universal health care for everyone and maintain the quality at the present level, I wouldn't mind at all. The truth is, and we both know it, that can't work.

 

[greenpartyaz]

Allie they are all debating me on that all important issue of "Heart" using the song at the convention. That's a really good question Americano, if you asked the DNC they only have on answer and it's the same answer for everything "George Bush". However, I like to think it has to do with over-regulation, not allowing the US economy to grow fast enough to compete with the world economy and forcing companies to ship jobs oversea's to compete. Give you and example, The EPA. , when you get a chance take a look at the number of regualtions it takes to set up . let's say a feed processing plant here. The you will know why a company goes to say Mexico to do it.

It has to do with corporate greed. Corporate crime is the fastest growing crime in the US. Police should be fighting crime on the streets as well as crime in the suites. De-regulation is why we have seen the corporate crime wave of the last ten years. Enron being the biggest offender. Corporations make huge profits and then throw everyone out of work, just so they can make a little bit more! The EPA has been gutted by the Bush/Cheney administration, they have been moved from an enforcement agency to a reactionary agency. Companies go to Mexico to pay people $3.00 an h/r what it takes to pay an American $8.00-13.00/hr, to do the same job. These companies have no allegiance to the United States, and should not be allowed to set up shop in the US once they leave. Good Ridence! (Walmart) There is an endless supply of other small businesses that will take their place. Drive the economy with small business. More diversification.

 

[Navy1960]

Yes let's blame the big bad mean old corporations, what's wrong with greed? correct me if I am wrong but is it not in the nature in a free and I stress word free here market economy to make a profit? The U.S has the second highest corporate taxes in the world, and the largest number of regulations by far in world. You wonder why a corporation has problems doing business in this country? Let me cite you just one example, for a long peroid of time GM actually had to enter into collective barginning with the UAQ because it's out dated pension fund was causing it's demise. An agreement was stuck finally, however GM is so bloated with regualtions, and contracts, that in order to compete in the "like it or not" world , they are forced to look elsewhere to build their car's i.e. Mexico. Take building an Oil refinery , the last one was built in this country over 30 years ago, know why? EPA regs. thats why, and you wonder why we have problems with jobs being shipped overseas. So what does Obama propose? well he proposes a tax increase on corporations, you think thats going to provide an incentive for them to keep US based jobs?

The "Enron loophole" exempts most over-the-counter energy trades and trading on electronic energy commodity markets from government regulation.[1] The "loophole" is so-called as it was drafted by Enron Corporation lobbyists working with U.S. Senator Phil Gramm to create a deregulated market for their experimental "Enron On-line" initiative.[2]

The "loophole" was enacted in 7 U.S.C. §2(h)(3) and (g) of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, signed by President Bill Clinton in December 2000.[1] It allowed for the creation, for U.S. exchanges, of a new kind of derivative security, the single-stock future, which had been prohibited since 1982 under the Shad-Johnson Accord, a jurisdictional pact between John S.R. Shad, then chairman of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, and Phil Johnson, then chairman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

Enron was a complete and total joke and those responsible for it are now paying a heavy price for it. If you have a problem with Enron though and MCI, and Adelphia, and many others, I suggest you look at the last democrat in the White House and ask him those questions.

I do like your idea about small business however, but again, you need to take that tax burden away from small business, and the massive amount of regulation that hinders small business from competing too. Obama's plan does not exclude, a tax on small business as well. So in short i'm afriad if the next administration is an Obama one look for even more US jobs to go offshore.

 

[Jennifer.Bush]

how many people do countires that offer healthcare have?
we have 300 million people plus illegals....does england have that?

 

[Navy1960]

jennifer.bush

The list of countries with Universal Health care is a bit long so I thougt I would post the link for you to take a look at.

Universal health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The population of great Britian as of 2007 is 65 million, give or take a few people unaccounted for.

United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Chris]

Take it easy, hotshot. Unless you've lived most of your life overseas, as I did, you have no ground to accuse me of lying. Have you? Appology would be nice.

Beside, I red link you posted. It's pretty fair, but not completely correct. My work frequently takes me to Ontario, Canada and I do talk to people I work with. I would never take their system over ours, simply cause it's not working and it never will. But, if our government can provide universal health care for everyone and maintain the quality at the present level, I wouldn't mind at all. The truth is, and we both know it, that can't work.

It is working. The Canadians like their system and it works better than ours. The polls in Canada show it.

 

[Chris]

how many people do countires that offer healthcare have?
we have 300 million people plus illegals....does england have that?

Oh, the whinny right again. We can't have universal healthcare it's HARD!!! We can't have clean energy, it's HARD!!! Bullshit. The only thing holding us back are the corporate lobbyists. Our government is bought and sold everyday.

 

[greenpartyaz]

Yes let's blame the big bad mean old corporations, what's wrong with greed? correct me if I am wrong but is it not in the nature in a free and I stress word free here market economy to make a profit? The U.S has the second highest corporate taxes in the world, and the largest number of regulations by far in world. You wonder why a corporation has problems doing business in this country? Let me cite you just one example, for a long peroid of time GM actually had to enter into collective barginning with the UAQ because it's out dated pension fund was causing it's demise. An agreement was stuck finally, however GM is so bloated with regualtions, and contracts, that in order to compete in the "like it or not" world , they are forced to look elsewhere to build their car's i.e. Mexico. Take building an Oil refinery , the last one was built in this country over 30 years ago, know why? EPA regs. thats why, and you wonder why we have problems with jobs being shipped overseas. So what does Obama propose? well he proposes a tax increase on corporations, you think thats going to provide an incentive for them to keep US based jobs?

The "Enron loophole" exempts most over-the-counter energy trades and trading on electronic energy commodity markets from government regulation.[1] The "loophole" is so-called as it was drafted by Enron Corporation lobbyists working with U.S. Senator Phil Gramm to create a deregulated market for their experimental "Enron On-line" initiative.[2]

The "loophole" was enacted in 7 U.S.C. §2(h)(3) and (g) of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, signed by President Bill Clinton in December 2000.[1] It allowed for the creation, for U.S. exchanges, of a new kind of derivative security, the single-stock future, which had been prohibited since 1982 under the Shad-Johnson Accord, a jurisdictional pact between John S.R. Shad, then chairman of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, and Phil Johnson, then chairman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

Enron was a complete and total joke and those responsible for it are now paying a heavy price for it. If you have a problem with Enron though and MCI, and Adelphia, and many others, I suggest you look at the last democrat in the White House and ask him those questions.

I do like your idea about small business however, but again, you need to take that tax burden away from small business, and the massive amount of regulation that hinders small business from competing too. Obama's plan does not exclude, a tax on small business as well. So in short i'm afriad if the next administration is an Obama one look for even more US jobs to go offshore.

In a free market society, as you proclaim, shouldn't a huge successful corporation give back something to the community it employs? If you are the largest employer in a small community, don't you have an obligation to give back? As for GM, it was mismanagement at the top levels, throughout the years that caused GM's downfall. They should have been on the research and development of alternative fuel cars since the late 70's. It was not the union that caused GM's demise. Businesses like to blame unions for all of their wasteful spending and bad management decisions. If GM would have been ahead of the curve, with innovation, they might still be competitive in the market. And as for corporations, a lot of major corporations pay no taxes. Again I will repeat it, most corporations pay little or no taxes!!! It all comes down to the CEO's and board, giving their execs huge pay raises, taking several exotic vacations, and driving Bently's, while the company suffers. Talk about ass backwards way of management! You seem to have read the corporate raiders bible, at least I think you did? And why do you assume I support Obama or Clinton? Not much has changed between Clinton, and Bush II. Except Clinton signed the throw Sadam out legislation. And Bush went through with the Coup.

 

[Jennifer.Bush]

Oh, the whinny right again. We can't have universal healthcare it's HARD!!! We can't have clean energy, it's HARD!!! Bullshit. The only thing holding us back are the corporate lobbyists. Our government is bought and sold everyday.

plz try to be civil, i have never attacked anyone on this board.
i'm not a Rep. i vote for the people i like. i think my question is vaild
should we not take into account the number of people we have in this country?


@navy- thanks for the info

 

[Red Dawn]

how many people do countires that offer healthcare have?
we have 300 million people plus illegals....does england have that?

great point.

japan has 130 million people, germany has 85 million. Both have quality universal healthcare.

for some strange reason only known to cons, once you get get over 200 million people, you can't have universal healthcare