Obama Admits it: Conservatism Works

[SFC Ollie]

Actually, it works in certain situations just like liberalism works in certain situations. That's a reason no one political party holds office forever. Both have their flaws.

When has liberalism (whatever that is) ever worked?

Thom Hartmann read this story about a typical American going through life and just about everything we enjoy about America came from liberals.

You, LABOR, making a good wage. That came from unions.

Time off for your wife and she gets to keep her job? Came from liberals.

Healthcare? Came from liberals.

Social Security? Came from liberals. Conservatives bankrupted it, but the concept is a very good idea.

I'm not doing the story justice. Seriously, everything you have, you can thank liberals. Vacation days, sick days, labor laws that protect your sorry ass, etc. I'll try to find the story.

And while the liberals were giving away the store the Conservatives were in the Military keeping our freedoms safe.

 

[rightwinger]

Republicans ran up the biggest deficits in history. The question is, "Where did all that money go?" Not New Orleans, not "No child left behind", not the economy, not our soldiers, not health care, not our infrastucture. Where did it go? That's the real mystery.

Yet, Republicans want another crack at it. They want to finish the job they started. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Thats a good question. Bush ran up $5 Trillion in deficits and what did we get for it? The money went for tax cuts to the wealthy, to pay for two wars...what else do we have to show for eight years of Bush?

At least the money Obama spent went to save two auto companies, lend money to banks (which is being repaid), pay for infrastructure improvements, state programs.

 

[rightwinger]

And while the liberals were giving away the store the Conservatives were in the Military keeping our freedoms safe.

???????????

Got proof?

 

[SFC Ollie]

And while the liberals were giving away the store the Conservatives were in the Military keeping our freedoms safe.

???????????

Got proof?

Of course.

But first; wasn't it Bush who loaned the banks money?

1) How would you describe your political views?
Very conservative
8.8%

Conservative
37%
Moderate
38.7%

Liberal
7%
Very liberal
1.4%

Decline to answer
7.1%

Military Times Polls

I need to find 2008 and 2009 see if they have updated.

 

[antagon]

How would anyone know if conservatism still works? We have not had any in govt for around 30 years.

the longest expansion on record: 1991 -2001. 'progressive conservatism'

 

[rightwinger]

And while the liberals were giving away the store the Conservatives were in the Military keeping our freedoms safe.

???????????

Got proof?

Of course.

But first; wasn't it Bush who loaned the banks money?

1) How would you describe your political views?
Very conservative
8.8%

Conservative
37%
Moderate
38.7%

Liberal
7%
Very liberal
1.4%

Decline to answer
7.1%

Military Times Polls

I need to find 2008 and 2009 see if they have updated.

Wait a minute Ollie. Lets add it up

You stated that "Conservatives were keeping our freedoms safe" yet your own poll shows that 54% of soldiers do not identify themselves as Conservative

 

[Joe Steel]

Until Obama came along. And all he has to show for it is double digit unemployment because he thinks a country can spend its way out of a recession.

Not only can countries spend their way out of a recession, that's the only way they can get out of a recession.

Recessions are caused by a lack of spending. Spending is the only way to fix a lack of spending.

 

[SFC Ollie]

???????????

Got proof?

Of course.

But first; wasn't it Bush who loaned the banks money?

1) How would you describe your political views?
Very conservative
8.8%

Conservative
37%
Moderate
38.7%

Liberal
7%
Very liberal
1.4%

Decline to answer
7.1%

Military Times Polls

I need to find 2008 and 2009 see if they have updated.

Wait a minute Ollie. Lets add it up

You stated that "Conservatives were keeping our freedoms safe" yet your own poll shows that 54% of soldiers do not identify themselves as Conservative

And only 8.4% claimed to be Liberal. Even splitting the moderate numbers makes a very poor showing for Liberals.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Until Obama came along. And all he has to show for it is double digit unemployment because he thinks a country can spend its way out of a recession.

Not only can countries spend their way out of a recession, that's the only way they can get out of a recession.

Recessions are caused by a lack of spending. Spending is the only way to fix a lack of spending.

Not government spending....So far a lot of temporary jobs have been created.And according to Liberals Bush was spending more than enough.......Except it was his fault we went into recession? Hmmmm... Confused yet? I am.....

 

[antagon]

Until Obama came along. And all he has to show for it is double digit unemployment because he thinks a country can spend its way out of a recession.

Not only can countries spend their way out of a recession, that's the only way they can get out of a recession.

Recessions are caused by a lack of spending. Spending is the only way to fix a lack of spending.

Not government spending....So far a lot of temporary jobs have been created.And according to Liberals Bush was spending more than enough.......Except it was his fault we went into recession? Hmmmm... Confused yet? I am.....

it wont matter if its public or private as much as how it was spent.

thats the issue with bushs duncehood on the economy. he spent money on his wars, on government, and on upper-bracket tax relief. the latter is the part of conservatism that does not hold water: the relationship between tax cuts and employment. the trickling down of the save for later demographic. bush chased that dream, then competed for the winfall with public borrowing, and the resulting low interest rate was a key factor in the recession we're in.

please tell me youre not confused about dubyas recession building expertise.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Not only can countries spend their way out of a recession, that's the only way they can get out of a recession.

Recessions are caused by a lack of spending. Spending is the only way to fix a lack of spending.

Not government spending....So far a lot of temporary jobs have been created.And according to Liberals Bush was spending more than enough.......Except it was his fault we went into recession? Hmmmm... Confused yet? I am.....

it wont matter if its public or private as much as how it was spent.

thats the issue with bushs duncehood on the economy. he spent money on his wars, on government, and on upper-bracket tax relief. the latter is the part of conservatism that does not hold water: the relationship between tax cuts and employment. the trickling down of the save for later demographic. bush chased that dream, then competed for the winfall with public borrowing, and the resulting low interest rate was a key factor in the recession we're in.

please tell me youre not confused about dubyas recession building expertise.

Fact is I have asked what policies Bush put into effect that caused the recession. Or just what did cause it. All I ever get boils down to something like: BU Bu bu but it's Bushs fault.
I personally am not a economist I don't know what all led up to it. But I know for a fact it wasn't just Bush and it wasn't just Fannie & Freddie. But I also believe that Obama spent the year he was supposed to be in Economics 101 smoking crack.

 

[antagon]

Not government spending....So far a lot of temporary jobs have been created.And according to Liberals Bush was spending more than enough.......Except it was his fault we went into recession? Hmmmm... Confused yet? I am.....

it wont matter if its public or private as much as how it was spent.

thats the issue with bushs duncehood on the economy. he spent money on his wars, on government, and on upper-bracket tax relief. the latter is the part of conservatism that does not hold water: the relationship between tax cuts and employment. the trickling down of the save for later demographic. bush chased that dream, then competed for the winfall with public borrowing, and the resulting low interest rate was a key factor in the recession we're in.

please tell me youre not confused about dubyas recession building expertise.

Fact is I have asked what policies Bush put into effect that caused the recession. Or just what did cause it. All I ever get boils down to something like: BU Bu bu but it's Bushs fault.
I personally am not a economist I don't know what all led up to it. But I know for a fact it wasn't just Bush and it wasn't just Fannie & Freddie. But I also believe that Obama spent the year he was supposed to be in Economics 101 smoking crack.

deficit spending begets borrowing, begets a low interest rate. all in pretty short order. alan greenspan and the fed got railed by critics for the flat interest rates we've had since .. i wanna say 2003, but he's been quoted saying that the extent of the dollar's issuance was making it increasingly difficult to raise rates.

it would be hard to find that quote but ill try for a few mins. i think it was in 2006.

if people are over-consuming debt like mortgages, ccards, etc, and institutions are making a killing on the same, you could moderate the boom by increasing the rate of interest. never happened. the bust was catastrophic for this reason even more than for the derregulation back in 99.

as for obamanomics, anyone who's taken an econ101 class since 1987 or so would have a hard time making the connections that your typical conservative makes between low taxes and improved employment. i could vouch for that.

the principals of conservatism were to deliver an increase in economic activity from a reduction in taxes, which would result in higher employment and well-being for the middle class as a result of the trickling down of the retained wealth or the 'rich'. the government would increase or maintain its revenue because the increased activity would constitute an increase in taxable income.

econ 101 would tell you that this was an across the board failure, categorically. it also leads to economic collapse EVERY TIME. the carnegie treasury's tax initiative: the great depression. the reagan: the 1987 flop and the S&L crisis. now bush.

im no economist, but i took a couple econ classes. its history that tells the story though.

 

[SFC Ollie]

it wont matter if its public or private as much as how it was spent.

thats the issue with bushs duncehood on the economy. he spent money on his wars, on government, and on upper-bracket tax relief. the latter is the part of conservatism that does not hold water: the relationship between tax cuts and employment. the trickling down of the save for later demographic. bush chased that dream, then competed for the winfall with public borrowing, and the resulting low interest rate was a key factor in the recession we're in.

please tell me youre not confused about dubyas recession building expertise.

Fact is I have asked what policies Bush put into effect that caused the recession. Or just what did cause it. All I ever get boils down to something like: BU Bu bu but it's Bushs fault.
I personally am not a economist I don't know what all led up to it. But I know for a fact it wasn't just Bush and it wasn't just Fannie & Freddie. But I also believe that Obama spent the year he was supposed to be in Economics 101 smoking crack.

deficit spending begets borrowing, begets a low interest rate. all in pretty short order. alan greenspan and the fed got railed by critics for the flat interest rates we've had since .. i wanna say 2003, but he's been quoted saying that the extent of the dollar's issuance was making it increasingly difficult to raise rates.

it would be hard to find that quote but ill try for a few mins. i think it was in 2006.

if people are over-consuming debt like mortgages, ccards, etc, and institutions are making a killing on the same, you could moderate the boom by increasing the rate of interest. never happened. the bust was catastrophic for this reason even more than for the derregulation back in 99.

as for obamanomics, anyone who's taken an econ101 class since 1987 or so would have a hard time making the connections that your typical conservative makes between low taxes and improved employment. i could vouch for that.

the principals of conservatism were to deliver an increase in economic activity from a reduction in taxes, which would result in higher employment and well-being for the middle class as a result of the trickling down of the retained wealth or the 'rich'. the government would increase or maintain its revenue because the increased activity would constitute an increase in taxable income.

econ 101 would tell you that this was an across the board failure, categorically. it also leads to economic collapse EVERY TIME. the carnegie treasury's tax initiative: the great depression. the reagan: the 1987 flop and the S&L crisis. now bush.

im no economist, but i took a couple econ classes. its history that tells the story though.

Wait a minute now. "and institutions are making a killing on the same," yet the banks supposedly failed? All I know is if I owe out a lot of cash I do not borrow more. For instance, Just but a new washer and Dryer on Credit and we'd like to get a new Freezer. The freezer will wait until the other is paid off. Which won't take very long.

 

[Joe Steel]

ot only can countries spend their way out of a recession, that's the only way they can get out of a recession.

Recessions are caused by a lack of spending. Spending is the only way to fix a lack of spending.

Not government spending....So far a lot of temporary jobs have been created.And according to Liberals Bush was spending more than enough.......Except it was his fault we went into recession? Hmmmm... Confused yet? I am.....

Consumer spending is about 2/3 of the American economy and during the Bush nightmare it kept the economy relatively strong. When consumers lost the means to maintain their spending, the economy collapsed. The only way to bring it back is restoring consumer spending.

 

[NYcarbineer]

After a year of full blown FDR/Soviet Style Central Planning, after a year of TARP and "Stimulus" spending, after a year of denigrating capitalism and free enterprise, Obama has finally seen the light and admits that Conservatism works; only Conservatism can set the foundation for small businesses to bloom and prosper.

Maybe he was visited by the Spirits of Ronald Reagan, Milton Friedman and Adams Smith last night, who knows? All we can tell is that today he has come to the realization that government spending does not create jobs. In America, that's a job for small businesses!

Welcome Obama! Glad to have you aboard.

ODS squared.

 

[antagon]

Wait a minute now. "and institutions are making a killing on the same," yet the banks supposedly failed? All I know is if I owe out a lot of cash I do not borrow more. For instance, Just but a new washer and Dryer on Credit and we'd like to get a new Freezer. The freezer will wait until the other is paid off. Which won't take very long.

very astute use of 'supposedly', sarge. some banks failed. some were rescued from failing. to some, it was like a buffet of failed competitors. then citi, rbs, and bofa ate so much of that they got sick too.

all that aside there were some mean profits being made in credit and any and everything ancillary to it during the boom. thats what boom is all about.

my brother is an actual econ/finance guy. he speaks on the wall-street specifics of the situation, but i see the forest from the trees. when there's a rush for something, a boom, theres going to be a catastrophic failure, a bust. the old bandwagon concept. too many people on it and the wheels fall off. thats capitalism.

im a cash man myself. make no interest, pay no interest.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Wait a minute now. "and institutions are making a killing on the same," yet the banks supposedly failed? All I know is if I owe out a lot of cash I do not borrow more. For instance, Just but a new washer and Dryer on Credit and we'd like to get a new Freezer. The freezer will wait until the other is paid off. Which won't take very long.

very astute use of 'supposedly', sarge. some banks failed. some were rescued from failing. to some, it was like a buffet of failed competitors. then citi, rbs, and bofa ate so much of that they got sick too.

all that aside there were some mean profits being made in credit and any and everything ancillary to it during the boom. thats what boom is all about.

my brother is an actual econ/finance guy. he speaks on the wall-street specifics of the situation, but i see the forest from the trees. when there's a rush for something, a boom, theres going to be a catastrophic failure, a bust. the old bandwagon concept. too many people on it and the wheels fall off. thats capitalism.

im a cash man myself. make no interest, pay no interest.

We all should be so lucky. But we know how much to borrow and when to wait and save. Can't say the same for the US congress these past decades.

 

[antagon]

not luck. not recommended. buddhists eat vegetables. i use cash.

 

[oreo]

After a year of full blown FDR/Soviet Style Central Planning, after a year of TARP and "Stimulus" spending, after a year of denigrating capitalism and free enterprise, Obama has finally seen the light and admits that Conservatism works; only Conservatism can set the foundation for small businesses to bloom and prosper.

Maybe he was visited by the Spirits of Ronald Reagan, Milton Friedman and Adams Smith last night, who knows? All we can tell is that today he has come to the realization that government spending does not create jobs. In America, that's a job for small businesses!

Welcome Obama! Glad to have you aboard.

--Yeah it's like Obama woke up in the middle of the night (I mean last night) & finally realised that it's TRUE: "Small business is the largest employer in this country." This while he has been bailing out auto unions to the tune of billions--he may have finally figured out that it's the "small mom & pop shops" --(non union) that keep this country moving "forward.")

Funny though--congress still doesn't get it. They actually believe that small business employes more than 50 employees thereby would be required to cover their employees with medical insurance---

Most small businesses in this country have less than 10 employees--therefore the majority of this country would still not be covered by any medical insurance plan--sponsored by the government--

In fact, it's ironic how incompetent this federal government is. They don't seem to realise where jobs come from & when they finally do--they can't count.

 

[obama2ndterm]

TomPaine.com - It's The Conservatism, Stupid
Paul Waldman
July 12, 2006

A good first step would be to never, ever again use the word with a positive connotation. How many times has a Democrat, in order to score a debating point, said, “A true conservative wouldn’t tolerate these Republican deficits?” How many times have solidly liberal Democrats described themselves as “fiscally conservative?” Those formulations accept that true conservatives are principled people with noble goals. They are not, and should not be talked about as though they were. When was the last time you heard a Republican call himself a “social liberal,” even if he is one? They don’t, because they understand that liberalism is an opposing ideology to which they will give no aid or comfort.

So allow me to offer a few points of attack on conservatism, ones that will resonate with the public and accrue both short-term and long-term gains to the liberals who use them.

1. Conservatism has failed. The overwhelming majority of the American public now sees the Bush administration as a failure. They failed in Iraq, they failed after Hurricane Katrina, they failed on health care, they failed to deliver rising wages, they failed on the deficit, they failed, they failed, they failed. Why? Liberals need to argue that it wasn’t a product of incompetence, it was a failure of conservative governance. As Alan Wolfe put it in a recent Washington Monthly article, “Conservatives cannot govern well for the same reason that vegetarians cannot prepare a world-class boeuf bourguignon: If you believe that what you are called upon to do is wrong, you are not likely to do it very well.”

Conservatives had their chance: a Republican president, a Republican Congress, Republican-appointed courts—in short, the perfect environment for enacting their vision with little to stand in their way—and they failed. Should we be surprised at the level of corruption? Of course not; they don’t think government is there to serve the people, so why shouldn’t they raid it for whatever they can grab?

In short, progressives should start talking about the Bush administration’s failures not as those of a president, but of an ideology.

2. Conservatism is the ideology of the past—a past we don’t want to return to. Liberals need to embrace the culture war, because we’re winning. The story of American history is that of conservative ideas and prejudices falling away as our society grows more progressive and thus more true to our nation’s founding ideals. Conservatives supported slavery, conservatives opposed women’s suffrage, conservatives supported Jim Crow, conservatives opposed the 40-hour work week and the abolishment of child labor, and conservatives supported McCarthyism. In short, all the major advancements of freedom and justice in our history were pushed by liberals and opposed by conservatives, no matter the party they inhabited at the time.

Conservatism is Bill Bennett lecturing you about self-denial, then rushing off to feed his slot habit at the casino. It’s James Dobson telling you that children need regular beatings to stay in line. It’s a superannuated nun rapping you on the knuckles so you won’t think about your dirty parts. It’s Jerry Falwell watching “Teletubbies” frame by frame to see if Tinky Winky is trying to turn him gay. Conservatism is everyone you never wanted to grow up to be.

3. Conservatives are cowards, and they hope you are, too. We’re afraid, they shout. We’re so afraid of terrorists, we have to become more like the things we hate. We’re so afraid, we have to let our government sanction torture. We’re so afraid, we have to let the government spy on us. We’re so afraid, we have to give the president dictatorial powers. We’re so afraid, we just want to rush to the arms of politicians who say they’ll protect us.

Progressives need to frame their rejection of the fear campaign as an act of courage: Al-Qaida does not scare us, and we will not dismantle our democratic system because we are afraid. The America we love does not cower in fear, as the conservatives want it to.

These are just a few ways progressives can begin to talk about contemporary issues in the context of the larger ideological conflict that shapes our political history. As an added bonus, when we make clear just what it is we are against at its fundamental, philosophical level, we define for the public who we are and what we stand for.

One of the troubling contradictions in contemporary public opinion is that while on nearly every issue the progressive position is more popular, the number of people willing to tell a pollster they consider themselves “conservative” still far outnumbers the number willing to say they’re “liberal.” It wasn’t always that way, and it doesn’t have to be that way. Winning converts isn’t just about convincing people you’re right on the merits of issues, it’s also about showing them that your side is one they want to join, and the other side is one they want to avoid.

The key challenge facing progressives right now is how—once George W. Bush decamps for Crawford in January of 2009—to maintain the increased energy motivating the political left in recent years . They will be able to do so if they come to understand that George W. Bush is not what they need to fight. What they need to fight is conservatism.