CDZ Nonsense About the Causes of Dark Ages

[Picaro]

The Dark Ages Were From the Fall of Rome to the Norman Conquest (476-1066)

Ruling class histwhorians try to cover up for their bosses' degenerate rule by taking that off the table as ever having any effect on history. The Spanish Influenza, 1918-1920, killed between 50 and 100 million people. Why didn't that destroy modern civilizations?

Because the population levels in 1918 were far higher than they were in medieval times, that's why, plus modern public sanitation practices at the time shortened the run of epidemics, by responding relatively quickly to them. The influenza epidemic did indeed have an impact, but it didn't depopulate entire towns and regions. Modern civilizations are far more resilient, at least in the West.

 

[Picaro]

I recommend a bit of caution before accepting uncritically the popular notion of the "Dark Ages." The term has its origin in the "Enlightenment" era as a condemnation of earlier governmental systems that did not share the new values. People do this sort of thing all the time. The current use of "liberal" as a term of abuse is a contemporary example.

.

New Age Sewage

And you are falling for Postmodern propaganda. Its unmanly degeneracy and cowardly escapism is leading us into a Second Dark Ages, which is why its gurus need to claim that the first one never happened.

Rubbish and drivel.

And, the 'Dark Ages' weren't all that 'dark', certainly not relative to the alternatives of pagan brutalism. It's worth noting that modern 'atheism' and 'rationalism' cults have some need to revert to mass slaughter and human sacrifices, as seen in the Maoist and Stalinist Marxist regimes, and the cult of abortion that now has a death toll upwards of 60 million or so. Neo-paganism is indeed a regression, a de-evolution, not an 'progression' and 'advance' of culture and societies.

 

[pwjohn]

My understanding of the 1500 BCE dark age in the Mediterranean was that it was caused by the wandering marauding armies returning from the Trojan War.

What date of the Trojan War are you using?

The war that never was. Seriously.

 

[william the wie]

At least two Punic discoveries of America BC, at least two pre-Columbian Chinese discoveries of America and evidence of at least one Croatian discovery

Hadn't heard about the Croatian one, but wouldn't doubt it, as Ragusa was a maritime power. The Chinese one, like the Viking one, is irrelevant and didn't have any impact, while Columbus's did have a major across the board impact and is the most important one.

The evidence for the European use of Chinese maps after 1434 is good enough to win in a civil court. In much the same way the evidence for a mini-dark age 1917-90 is quite defensible.

 

[william the wie]

[="pwjohn, post: 16734748, member: 37392"]

My understanding UOQTEof the 1500 BCE dark age in the Mediterranean was that it was caused by the wandering marauding armies returning from the Trojan War.

What date of the Trojan War are you using?

The war that never was. Seriously.[/QUOTE]

More like which war? There were quite a few burned down Troys.

 

[Picaro]

The evidence for the European use of Chinese maps after 1434 is good enough to win in a civil court.

Maybe so; the Chinese didn't do anything important with their voyages, though, except find a coastline, while the Portuguese, Spanish, and Dutch did find two continents.

In much the same way the evidence for a mini-dark age 1917-90 is quite defensible.

Yes, I would say it was a dark age for the UK, Germany, the Russian sphere, and China; probably not for India, parts of Africa, and the U.S.

 

[william the wie]

what is really strange is that the birth dearth countries have already begun to collapse like Japan which has a growing number of ghost cities are likely to experience an atypical dark age.

 

[Picaro]

what is really strange is that the birth dearth countries have already begun to collapse like Japan which has a growing number of ghost cities are likely to experience an atypical dark age.

Not necessarily; productivity levels are still sky high more than offsetting population decline. We in fact need population declines globally, and in the U.S. especially. If we lost about 130 million, back to 1970 levels or so we would do just fine with that base. What was the population of the U.S. in 1942-45, when we fought a three front world war and kept two other major powers going at the same time?

What killed off the western Roman empire and others in ancient and medieval times won't kill off modern ones. We're not as labor intensive and low tech. In fact it might raise per capita GDP while reducing overall GDP.

 

[jillian]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

the dark ages were caused by the excessive interference of the church in the lives of Europeans. The renaissance was a rebirth of the celebration of art and science and literature.

 

[Picaro]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

the dark ages were caused by the excessive interference of the church in the lives of Europeans. The renaissance was a rebirth of the celebration of art and science and literature.

This is a real discussion zone, not a place for idiotic propaganda from the fever swamps.

 

[Unkotare]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

the dark ages were caused by the excessive interference of the church in the lives of Europeans. The renaissance was a rebirth of the celebration of art and science and literature.

Highly inaccurate.

 

[Unkotare]

We certainly don't need a global population decline, but we're going to get one anyway.

 

[Picaro]

We certainly don't need a global population decline, but we're going to get one anyway.

A decline doesn't have to involve death camps or any other nonsense, just a natural decline by reducing birth rates; far more stable than letting famines and plagues do all the work. Populations decline naturally on their own as wealth increases in demographics, and is no reason for panic, just the opposite. It only bothers those who want to get rich a lot quicker off of other people's work, is all. So they have to wait an extra week to get that Rolls, whoopity do.

 

[william the wie]

what is really strange is that the birth dearth countries have already begun to collapse like Japan which has a growing number of ghost cities are likely to experience an atypical dark age.

Not necessarily; productivity levels are still sky high more than offsetting population decline. We in fact need population declines globally, and in the U.S. especially. If we lost about 130 million, back to 1970 levels or so we would do just fine with that base. What was the population of the U.S. in 1942-45, when we fought a three front world war and kept two other major powers going at the same time?


What killed off the western Roman empire and others in ancient and medieval times won't kill off modern ones. We're not as labor intensive and low tech. In fact it might raise per capita GDP while reducing overall GDP.

You are ignoring external economies of scale. Downsizing hurts more than than orthodox economic models usually show

 

[william the wie]

We certainly don't need a global population decline, but we're going to get one anyway.

A decline doesn't have to involve death camps or any other nonsense, just a natural decline by reducing birth rates; far more stable than letting famines and plagues do all the work. Populations decline naturally on their own as wealth increases in demographics, and is no reason for panic, just the opposite. It only bothers those who want to get rich a lot quicker off of other people's work, is all. So they have to wait an extra week to get that Rolls, whoopity do.

Real wealth declines due to lower interest rates as with Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Germany, Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal and Spain boil down to lower interest rates support bubblicious levels of leverage and debt service. The US experienced a relatively mild meltdown. Australia, Russia and China did better with their stronger reliance on extractive industries.

 

[Picaro]

what is really strange is that the birth dearth countries have already begun to collapse like Japan which has a growing number of ghost cities are likely to experience an atypical dark age.

Not necessarily; productivity levels are still sky high more than offsetting population decline. We in fact need population declines globally, and in the U.S. especially. If we lost about 130 million, back to 1970 levels or so we would do just fine with that base. What was the population of the U.S. in 1942-45, when we fought a three front world war and kept two other major powers going at the same time?


What killed off the western Roman empire and others in ancient and medieval times won't kill off modern ones. We're not as labor intensive and low tech. In fact it might raise per capita GDP while reducing overall GDP.

You are ignoring external economies of scale. Downsizing hurts more than than orthodox economic models usually show

I'm not ignoring anything; higher productivity levels greatly reduce the need for labor, period, for a given amount of production. More labor just squeezes labor into more dire straits, and in turn that increases political and economic instability. Add to that the fact that labor is rarely permanently employed on top of lower incomes and you have long term declines in health and education across the board; just because a handful of shareholders and CEO make a lot more doesn't make it better. Employers have no right to unlimited supplies of labor, especially if they are not going to feed and house them when they lay them off.

A good collection of essays on American history that goes into not just the economy but the political economy is

American Economic Development in Historical Perspective- Edited by Thomas Weiss and Donald Schaefer, Stanford University Press.

It's one of the best short synopses I've found. Of special note is Fogel's essay on the economic factors played on the politics of the 1850's, a major decade of change for the U.S.

 

[Picaro]

We certainly don't need a global population decline, but we're going to get one anyway.

A decline doesn't have to involve death camps or any other nonsense, just a natural decline by reducing birth rates; far more stable than letting famines and plagues do all the work. Populations decline naturally on their own as wealth increases in demographics, and is no reason for panic, just the opposite. It only bothers those who want to get rich a lot quicker off of other people's work, is all. So they have to wait an extra week to get that Rolls, whoopity do.

Real wealth declines due to lower interest rates as with Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Germany, Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal and Spain boil down to lower interest rates support bubblicious levels of leverage and debt service. The US experienced a relatively mild meltdown. Australia, Russia and China did better with their stronger reliance on extractive industries.

Interest doesn't produce wealth, it's just rent seeking; they simply ran out of ways to over-leverage assets, assets that were themselves over-valued, and keep their paper gains growing at ridiculously high rates, then they ran out of buyers for their paper; since they were largely playing musical chairs with each other's paper, it only takes one or two of the small number of players to shut down the game. That;s what Goldman did in 2007-2008, and the rest who didn't get out like Goldman did and unload their junk fared a lot worse. And as always, the government had to bail them out.

 

[koshergrl]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

No, you're wrong.

You're referencing the middle ages.
The Dark Ages is now mostly called the early MIDDLE AGES. It was a period of time originally called "Dark" because there was not much written history, particularly in Europe and England, during that period of time. As Christianity spread, educated monks maintained ledgers, wrote letters, books, poems, music..and they shared knowledge in the communities that they established themselves in.

"The popular notion is that there was no science during this period and the period that followed or the High Middle Ages, while there was a resurgence of learning, this was theology and philosophy and not science as we know it today. This is a notion propagated by misinformedhistorians working from secondary sources. The truth is far different. The medieval period for all purposes
laid down the foundations of modern science. Much of these foundation lay on theidea of preserving knowledge through the written record via books.
And the spirit of invention never died even in the so called “Dark Ages”. Metallurgy reached a high point in theearly middle ages. Eyeglasses were invented soon after. The first mechanical clocks wereinvented in England. The Medievals also understood the principles of engineering staticsmagnificently demonstrated in the great Gothic cathedrals of Europe which still stand 800 yearsafter they were constructed."

There was nothing dark about the Dark Ages: The Medieval Origins of Science

 

[Picaro]

The Classical era Dark Age @1600-1,000 BC was caused by the eruption of Thera.

The Dark Ages that more people are familiar with was bracketed by the plague epidemic onsets of 536 and 1347. Numerous volcano eruptions and Earthquakes set the stage and preconditions for the initial outbreak of plague. You can go to the original hard copy sources or just use wikileaks but the pre-germ theories of these two Dark Ages have been disproven.

No, you're wrong.

You're referencing the middle ages.
The Dark Ages is now mostly called the early MIDDLE AGES. It was a period of time originally called "Dark" because there was not much written history, particularly in Europe and England, during that period of time. As Christianity spread, educated monks maintained ledgers, wrote letters, books, poems, music..and they shared knowledge in the communities that they established themselves in.

"The popular notion is that there was no science during this period and the period that followed or the High Middle Ages, while there was a resurgence of learning, this was theology and philosophy and not science as we know it today. This is a notion propagated by misinformedhistorians working from secondary sources. The truth is far different. The medieval period for all purposes
laid down the foundations of modern science. Much of these foundation lay on theidea of preserving knowledge through the written record via books.
And the spirit of invention never died even in the so called “Dark Ages”. Metallurgy reached a high point in theearly middle ages. Eyeglasses were invented soon after. The first mechanical clocks wereinvented in England. The Medievals also understood the principles of engineering staticsmagnificently demonstrated in the great Gothic cathedrals of Europe which still stand 800 yearsafter they were constructed."

There was nothing dark about the Dark Ages: The Medieval Origins of Science

Good synopsis; shorter than the one I would have made. lol

 

[william the wie]

If the essay gives a lot of mention to the creation of a farmland bubble during the Crimean war and a huge bust after the peace treaty reopened the Bosphorus to Russian small grains it is useful, if not I'm not highly interested in Fogel, if yes I am. The knock on bubbles in food packaging in Chicago and farm equipment in various prior to hot spot development was a major cause of the Civil War likewise the cotton and slave price bubbles were important too.