Noah

[Disir]

One of (the many things) that I don't come across here is Noah's survivor's guilt. More specifically, his children's reaction to seeing him drunk, naked and passed out. I saw Shem and Yafet as attempting to show respect.

Noah is a survivor; having witnessed the destruction of all he knew, he has profound survivor’s guilt. He is broken, so he drinks, and his sons react differently to his moment of vulnerability. Cham is able to see his father’s pain and so he is willing to look upon the results of that pain Shem and Yafet, on the other hand, are unable to accept seeing their father in this condition, so they refuse to. Cham is a model for us, as he is courageous enough to see his father as he truly is at that moment – pained, ashamed, and naked. Where he goes wrong is in telling his brothers about it. He fails to help, yet sometimes we may hurt someone less by staring at her scar than by looking away.
Survivors Guilt after the Flood: Shame and Healing — Jewish Journal

How did you perceive them?

 

[Compost]

I don't see Cham as a model. Shem and Yafet's response acknowledges Noah's drunkeness but treats him with respect. They don't stare at his shame, tell others about it, they put a blanket on him. They recognize his frail humanity and don't rub his nose in it.

 

[onefour1]

its a parable.

 

[yiostheoy]

One of (the many things) that I don't come across here is Noah's survivor's guilt. More specifically, his children's reaction to seeing him drunk, naked and passed out. I saw Shem and Yafet as attempting to show respect.

Noah is a survivor; having witnessed the destruction of all he knew, he has profound survivor’s guilt. He is broken, so he drinks, and his sons react differently to his moment of vulnerability. Cham is able to see his father’s pain and so he is willing to look upon the results of that pain Shem and Yafet, on the other hand, are unable to accept seeing their father in this condition, so they refuse to. Cham is a model for us, as he is courageous enough to see his father as he truly is at that moment – pained, ashamed, and naked. Where he goes wrong is in telling his brothers about it. He fails to help, yet sometimes we may hurt someone less by staring at her scar than by looking away.
Survivors Guilt after the Flood: Shame and Healing — Jewish Journal

How did you perceive them?

It's an old pre-Israelite saga from the era prior to Gilgamesh.

Moses adopted a lot of stories like this in his fictional work called Genesis (Bereshet) to give the Hebrews a sense of identity. Up to then they had only been slaves to the Egyptians. Same as the American Slaves were until the Civil War.

 

[yiostheoy]

Fossils tell us a lot more about ancient history than mythical writings.

The last dinosaur extinction occurred about 65 million years ago.

At that time mammals already existed, but only the smaller ones that lived on the ground survived further.

With the dinosaurs now gone, the mammals were able to climb into the trees.

Those who climbed into the trees evolved what we call canine teeth (actually they were feline teeth but we call them canine) and became predator carnivores.

Those who stayed on the ground became rodents.

The most ancient tree dwelling carnivore was a cat like animal the size of a Maine Coon or Norwegian Forest Cat. This was about 30 million years ago.

From that point on, bear-like and hyena-like and wolf-like creatures ventured back onto the ground and grew larger. The larger they became signifies the longer ago they climbed back down.

Eventually bears, hyenas, wolves, and apes all came down to the ground.

Monkeys and cats stayed up in the trees.

Humans evolved from apes about 2 million years ago. The oldest human fossils we know of are about that old.

Homans are fairly recent.

Whether humans got flooded out at any point in time is unlikely if not impossible. There is not enough water on the Earth to cover all mountains.

But it is a convenient myth that originated with Gilgamesh.

Moses copied it.

Same as he copied the story of Sargon's trip as a baby in a basket down a river.

 

[Disir]

I don't see Cham as a model. Shem and Yafet's response acknowledges Noah's drunkeness but treats him with respect. They don't stare at his shame, tell others about it, they put a blanket on him. They recognize his frail humanity and don't rub his nose in it.

I don't see him as a model either. But, I thought it was an interesting interpretation. He blew it when he told others. But, the others he told were his brothers. It becomes a family issue at some point.

 

[Disir]

Fossils tell us a lot more about ancient history than mythical writings.

The last dinosaur extinction occurred about 65 million years ago.

At that time mammals already existed, but only the smaller ones that lived on the ground survived further.

With the dinosaurs now gone, the mammals were able to climb into the trees.

Those who climbed into the trees evolved what we call canine teeth (actually they were feline teeth but we call them canine) and became predator carnivores.

Those who stayed on the ground became rodents.

The most ancient tree dwelling carnivore was a cat like animal the size of a Maine Coon or Norwegian Forest Cat. This was about 30 million years ago.

From that point on, bear-like and hyena-like and wolf-like creatures ventured back onto the ground and grew larger. The larger they became signifies the longer ago they climbed back down.

Eventually bears, hyenas, wolves, and apes all came down to the ground.

Monkeys and cats stayed up in the trees.

Humans evolved from apes about 2 million years ago. The oldest human fossils we know of are about that old.

Homans are fairly recent.

Whether humans got flooded out at any point in time is unlikely if not impossible. There is not enough water on the Earth to cover all mountains.

But it is a convenient myth that originated with Gilgamesh.

Moses copied it.

Same as he copied the story of Sargon's trip as a baby in a basket down a river.

I know where it came from. I know what you are saying to me. But, that isn't what this is about.

 

[Natural Citizen]

A righteous man is an everlasting foundation....

 

[WheelieAddict]

its a parable.

No it really happened!
Town expected flood of business after Noah’s Ark opened. So far, it’s a trickle.

 

[harmonica]

that's just a fairytale story

 

[Picaro]

I don't see Cham as a model. Shem and Yafet's response acknowledges Noah's drunkeness but treats him with respect. They don't stare at his shame, tell others about it, they put a blanket on him. They recognize his frail humanity and don't rub his nose in it.

I don't see him as a model either. But, I thought it was an interesting interpretation. He blew it when he told others. But, the others he told were his brothers. It becomes a family issue at some point.

As a parable it holds many lessons, like the others do. It is literature, part history, part theology, part sociology.

There is also a political aspect to the story as well, re Canaan and Canaanites.

 

[Disir]

I don't see Cham as a model. Shem and Yafet's response acknowledges Noah's drunkeness but treats him with respect. They don't stare at his shame, tell others about it, they put a blanket on him. They recognize his frail humanity and don't rub his nose in it.

I don't see him as a model either. But, I thought it was an interesting interpretation. He blew it when he told others. But, the others he told were his brothers. It becomes a family issue at some point.

As a parable it holds many lessons, like the others do. It is literature, part history, part theology, part sociology.

There is also a political aspect to the story as well, re Canaan and Canaanites.

Ya, the curse. The world's first addict curses his son that saw he had a problem. The things that people know but don't talk about.

 

[Disir]

that's just a fairytale story

It deals with issues of responsibility, addiction, survivors guilt. Issues that crop up with humans.

 

[Picaro]

I don't see Cham as a model. Shem and Yafet's response acknowledges Noah's drunkeness but treats him with respect. They don't stare at his shame, tell others about it, they put a blanket on him. They recognize his frail humanity and don't rub his nose in it.

I don't see him as a model either. But, I thought it was an interesting interpretation. He blew it when he told others. But, the others he told were his brothers. It becomes a family issue at some point.

As a parable it holds many lessons, like the others do. It is literature, part history, part theology, part sociology.

There is also a political aspect to the story as well, re Canaan and Canaanites.

Ya, the curse. The world's first addict curses his son that saw he had a problem. The things that people know but don't talk about.

It's also symbolic of Man's failure and continued failure. A parable on human weakness in general, The Jewish people, and at other levels, i.e. respect your 'elders', leaders, whatever, no matter if they fail once in a while, because they are going to fail.

Your original one is good, too; wasn't trying to ignore it.

 

[Disir]

I don't see Cham as a model. Shem and Yafet's response acknowledges Noah's drunkeness but treats him with respect. They don't stare at his shame, tell others about it, they put a blanket on him. They recognize his frail humanity and don't rub his nose in it.

I don't see him as a model either. But, I thought it was an interesting interpretation. He blew it when he told others. But, the others he told were his brothers. It becomes a family issue at some point.

As a parable it holds many lessons, like the others do. It is literature, part history, part theology, part sociology.

There is also a political aspect to the story as well, re Canaan and Canaanites.

Ya, the curse. The world's first addict curses his son that saw he had a problem. The things that people know but don't talk about.

It's also symbolic of Man's failure and continued failure. A parable on human weakness in general, The Jewish people, and at other levels, i.e. respect your 'elders', leaders, whatever, no matter if they fail once in a while, because they are going to fail.

Your original one is good, too; wasn't trying to ignore it.

Yes. It is tragic. The whole tale.

It's ok. I had to walk myself through how to see Cham in a different way. I am able to see how Shem and Yafet failed. It took me a bit.