Most americans are both liberal and conservative

[gekaap]

I am the center of MY Universe; which may or may not collide at any point and time with yours. As a true Conservative I really don't care for many people other than myself at all. My world is centered on MY needs, wants, and desires alone. Those people that I choose to allow into it I do because I believe they add something to MY life, not necessarily the other way around.

And this is why conservatives should be put into positions to administer the public welfare.

Dude, lay off the Ayn Rand.

 

[Anachronism]

And this is why conservatives should be put into positions to administer the public welfare.

Public Welfare is something that shouldn't exist to begin with. At least not beyond the city/town level of government. So in reality nobody should be in charge of it. If you are speaking about actual social welfare programs.... those should be a matter for PRIVATE INDUSTRY, not the government.

Dude, lay off the Ayn Rand.

Never read any of Ayn Rand's stuff. I don't listen to Beck or Limbaugh. I don't watch Hannity or any of those others either.

 

[Sail Away]

For the most part, people pick the parts from each ideoleology that they think will benefit them personally the most. Everyone acts in their own rational self-interest.

I don't believe that this is true. 64% of Americans thought that the Bush cuts should be allowed to expire. 70% (plus) don't want to raise the debt ceiling, 76% see deficit spending as detrimental. If people endorse what benefits them personally, most wouldn't be voicing such concern over programs like these that do them.

 

[gekaap]

Public Welfare is something that shouldn't exist to begin with. At least not beyond the city/town level of government. So in reality nobody should be in charge of it. If you are speaking about actual social welfare programs.... those should be a matter for PRIVATE INDUSTRY, not the government.

In other words, you don't like our constitution. Okay, fine. Get the fuck out.

 

[Anachronism]

In other words, you don't like our constitution. Okay, fine. Get the fuck out.

I have never seen anything in the US Constitution that allows the Federal Government to be involved in regulating the Social Welfare of the citizenry of the United States. The Enumerated Powers Act (Article I, Section 8) lists the Powers of the Legislative Branch of Government and I do not find a single one of those 18 powers having anything to do with.... healthcare, education, unemployment, social welfare, or anything of that sort.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not stupid enough to go to the "General Welfare" line in that section. If you are, please let me know so I can just add you to the Ignore List since further conversation between us will be of no value.

IF one were to assume that there IS something in the Constitution that makes programs like.... Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, etc... LEGAL then I would suggest that this country is no better than the Soviet Union ever was and that the last hope for Humanity has been extinguished and our entire race should be exterminated because we are nothing more than a virus.

 

[Sail Away]

I am an extreme social liberal and an extreme fiscal conservative.

Right. People should be able to do what they want but don't make me pay for it.

I would view an 'extreme social liberal' as someone who perceives that it is society's responsibly to take care of the less fortunate. This responsibility would include the basics; education, healthcare, housing and food. However, on the liberal side, these services are objective in that the are no harsh guidelines to obtain them. These programs are supplied by a small scale government (no military spending, limited policing/security spending, increase civil liberty).

Now, what Mad Scientist is advocating (People should be able to do what they want but don't make me pay for it) is a "liberal conservative"philosophy. Conservatism is a "individualist" perspective. Whereas a socialism is more of a "collectivist" perspective. The "do what I /we want" is a liberal perspective.

 

[Avatar4321]

The idea that Americans who agree with one set of ideas or another are extremists is a fallacy.

 

[Sail Away]

I think the article is pure bullshit. American politics is consumed by bitter violent, debate. That is bullshit.

Why Most Americans are Both Liberal and Conservative | Newgeography.com

American politics is consumed by a bitter, at times violent, debate about the overall role of government and specific governmental programs

And as I read the aricle, I find out the constitution was never finished, not until FDR.

The US Constitution was itself the product of fierce debate in the wake of the failed Articles of Confederation. The ingenious solution the Founders gave us was both a strong central government and equally powerful guarantees of individual liberty embodied in the Bill of Rights. Notably, that solution was largely the product of that era's young adults, the so-called Republican Generation.

Still, the Constitution didn't settle the question of the government's role in the economy and personal welfare. That wasn't resolved, at least temporarily, until the Great Depression, when Americans gave their strong support to FDR's New Deal programs. Again, it was that period's young adults – the "greatest generation" – that led the new consensus

Gee, Democrats fixed the Constitution, its the Conservatives that hate FDR, its the Conservatives who are violent and bitter, it must be the Conservatives that are our of touch.

Today, driven by more liberal attitudes among the Democrats' young Millennial Generation and minority supporters, and the more conservative beliefs of the Republicans' older, white base, the leadership of the two parties is more polarized than at any time since the Great Depression

What about the Democrats older white base, they are much larger than the older Republican White base, the Democrats have been losing their base for years, now its time to redefine the Democrat party as young, intelligent, and fair, not of the old racist White Republicans.

Seems like an awful lot of propagandanda on the USMB, always the same, Conservative baaad, old, racist, Democrats young and intelligent, fair, compromising.

Since FDR we have had truckloads of Liberal Policies and Programs, where are all the jobs, where is the security in a bad economy, the economy went south yet my tax went up. How is that going to help me, why did Liberals raise the taxes during a bad economy.

Liberal policies have completely failed, its simple, they are broke, that is a failure.

Liberalism is not to be compromised with, if they want to compromise let them start. Taxes, see a compromise? Social Security, see a compromise? Energy, see a compromise?

Jobs and Industry, where is the compromise?

Dude, you are all messed up here. You are only thinking two dimensionally; Republican and Democrat. The point of the article is that the is an entire other dimension (Authoritative/Liberal) that needs to be considered. Neither current Republican or Democrat philosophies represent the ideals of our founding fathers or the Constitution. Their philosophies were more in tune with liberal conservatism i.e. Libertarianism. This philosophy hardly exists in politics anymore.

 

[Sail Away]

The idea that Americans who agree with one set of ideas or another are extremists is a fallacy.

I agree totally. However in a representative democracy, clear and concise political philosophies must be uniform in each political party. Every voter can't maintain his(her) own unique way of thinking (otherwise he(she) couldn't be represented appropriately). This is where the US political system is failing miserably. The Democrats represent Authoritarian Collectivism. The Republicans represent Authoritarian Conservatism. There are no political parties that represent Liberal Collectivism or Liberal Conservatism.

Many "conservative" US citizens (free market capitalists & civil libertarians) don't want the big gov, big military, big security, big spending, big incarceration, big police/security. However, all these "big" attributes are part of the Republican platform. This philosophy is where the Tea Party people have come from. They don't like what either Republican or Democrats bring to the table, but they are to small to do anything about it.

Many progressive US citizens (social collectivists) don't want the hyperactive Justice system, unified education system, unified prison system, authoritarian program requirements , huge government spending. These are the ideals that are instilled in the Democrat platform. These folks just want their fellow man to be taken care of, without wars, policing, bureaucracy and aggression. I tend to fall into this philosophy. I have no options for any sort of political representation. My closest ally is the Tea Party people but I don't agree with their hard capitalist mentality.

 

[Woyzeck]

Why Most Americans are Both Liberal and Conservative | Newgeography.com

Some points I found to be generally true and a message to all of the extremists on both sides:

* According to Mr. Free and Mr. Cantril, most Americans have conservative attitudes concerning the size of government, and liberal beliefs in support of programs to protect themselves economically. This leads majorities to favor smaller government, individual initiative, and local control while endorsing major governmental programs ranging from Social Security to student grants and loans.


* In 1964, as President Johnson was announcing his Great Society initiatives, Free and Cantril, using the results of commissioned Gallup polls, determined that within the electorate, ideological conservatives outnumbered liberals by more than 3 to 1 (50 percent to 16 percent). But in those very same surveys, support for liberal government programs exceeded conservative opposition by a ratio of 4.6 to 1 (65 percent to 14 percent).

Using data from four of the Political Values and Core Attitudes surveys conducted by the Pew Research Center over the past two decades, we confirmed their research. Across four Pew surveys, from 1987 to 2009, ideological conservatives outnumbered liberals by a ratio of 3.5 to 1, but liberal supporters of specific programs outnumbered conservative opponents by a 2.2 to 1 margin.

In every Pew survey, there were always more conservatives than liberals regarding the overall role of government and a greater number of liberals than conservatives in support of programs designed to promote equality and economic well-being. In effect, the United States is neither a center-right nor a center-left nation; it is, and always has been, both at the same time.



And the greatest point of all:


* For the first time ever, among Democrats in the House of Representatives, the liberal Congressional Progressive Caucus contains more members than the moderate New Democrats and conservative Blue Dogs combined.

Across the aisle, few congressional Republicans are willing to call themselves moderates, and liberals, once a meaningful bloc in the GOP, have entirely disappeared.

Despite these divisions, the leaders of each party must find a way to work together to synthesize both strands of America's political DNA – a belief in the importance of a strong national community and equality of opportunity as well as a strong desire to limit government's encroachment on individual liberty – into a new civic ethos that is broadly acceptable to most Americans.

Sounds like doublethink to me. And to be honest, do people in other countries have a mix of views like this? Or are we just the anomaly?

 

[Sail Away]

In other words, you don't like our constitution. Okay, fine. Get the fuck out.

I have never seen anything in the US Constitution that allows the Federal Government to be involved in regulating the Social Welfare of the citizenry of the United States. The Enumerated Powers Act (Article I, Section 8) lists the Powers of the Legislative Branch of Government and I do not find a single one of those 18 powers having anything to do with.... healthcare, education, unemployment, social welfare, or anything of that sort.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not stupid enough to go to the "General Welfare" line in that section. If you are, please let me know so I can just add you to the Ignore List since further conversation between us will be of no value.

IF one were to assume that there IS something in the Constitution that makes programs like.... Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, etc... LEGAL then I would suggest that this country is no better than the Soviet Union ever was and that the last hope for Humanity has been extinguished and our entire race should be exterminated because we are nothing more than a virus.

So you believe that that gov should in no way be responsible for it citizens? Not even on the basic level like food or education?

 

[Madeline]

Your interpretation is entirely ego centric. I could just as easily say that anyone who disagrees with Bill Clinton on any issue, even to a slight degree, is a conservative.

I am the center of MY Universe; which may or may not collide at any point and time with yours. As a true Conservative I really don't care for many people other than myself at all. My world is centered on MY needs, wants, and desires alone. Those people that I choose to allow into it I do because I believe they add something to MY life, not necessarily the other way around.

May I suggest you add me to your Iggy List as well? It'll save us both time later, as it seems inevitable we'll be flinging snot at one another soon.

Mucho gracias.

 

[Madeline]

I am an extreme social liberal and an extreme fiscal conservative.

If this were true, you wouldn't be a Democrat, as they are not liberal. Progressive, collectivist political philosophies are NOT liberal.

Did you get a copyright on the label "liberal"? If not, please allow others to define the word as they see fit.

 

[Madeline]

In other words, you don't like our constitution. Okay, fine. Get the fuck out.

I have never seen anything in the US Constitution that allows the Federal Government to be involved in regulating the Social Welfare of the citizenry of the United States. The Enumerated Powers Act (Article I, Section 8) lists the Powers of the Legislative Branch of Government and I do not find a single one of those 18 powers having anything to do with.... healthcare, education, unemployment, social welfare, or anything of that sort.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not stupid enough to go to the "General Welfare" line in that section. If you are, please let me know so I can just add you to the Ignore List since further conversation between us will be of no value.

IF one were to assume that there IS something in the Constitution that makes programs like.... Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, etc... LEGAL then I would suggest that this country is no better than the Soviet Union ever was and that the last hope for Humanity has been extinguished and our entire race should be exterminated because we are nothing more than a virus.

I am sure the SCOTUS is all over butt hurt that you feel some of their decisions have been in error. I know I am moved to tears myself.

Tissue?

 

[Madeline]

I think the article is pure bullshit. American politics is consumed by bitter violent, debate. That is bullshit.

Why Most Americans are Both Liberal and Conservative | Newgeography.com

American politics is consumed by a bitter, at times violent, debate about the overall role of government and specific governmental programs

And as I read the aricle, I find out the constitution was never finished, not until FDR.



Gee, Democrats fixed the Constitution, its the Conservatives that hate FDR, its the Conservatives who are violent and bitter, it must be the Conservatives that are our of touch.

Today, driven by more liberal attitudes among the Democrats' young Millennial Generation and minority supporters, and the more conservative beliefs of the Republicans' older, white base, the leadership of the two parties is more polarized than at any time since the Great Depression

What about the Democrats older white base, they are much larger than the older Republican White base, the Democrats have been losing their base for years, now its time to redefine the Democrat party as young, intelligent, and fair, not of the old racist White Republicans.

Seems like an awful lot of propagandanda on the USMB, always the same, Conservative baaad, old, racist, Democrats young and intelligent, fair, compromising.

Since FDR we have had truckloads of Liberal Policies and Programs, where are all the jobs, where is the security in a bad economy, the economy went south yet my tax went up. How is that going to help me, why did Liberals raise the taxes during a bad economy.

Liberal policies have completely failed, its simple, they are broke, that is a failure.

Liberalism is not to be compromised with, if they want to compromise let them start. Taxes, see a compromise? Social Security, see a compromise? Energy, see a compromise?

Jobs and Industry, where is the compromise?

Dude, you are all messed up here. You are only thinking two dimensionally; Republican and Democrat. The point of the article is that the is an entire other dimension (Authoritative/Liberal) that needs to be considered. Neither current Republican or Democrat philosophies represent the ideals of our founding fathers or the Constitution. Their philosophies were more in tune with liberal conservatism i.e. Libertarianism. This philosophy hardly exists in politics anymore.

That is because Libertarianism is not compatible with the needs of the US today.

 

[Sail Away]

I am an extreme social liberal and an extreme fiscal conservative.

If this were true, you wouldn't be a Democrat, as they are not liberal. Progressive, collectivist political philosophies are NOT liberal.

Did you get a copyright on the label "liberal"? If not, please allow others to define the word as they see fit.

You are funny. I just can't let Democrats steal the word. Liberal means liberty plain and simple. This is true though out the world. Democrats are NOT liberal!

 

[Anachronism]

So you believe that that gov should in no way be responsible for it citizens? Not even on the basic level like food or education?

I have never seen ANY evidence that it was the intent of the Founding Fathers for the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to be involved in ANY form of social engineering among the citizens of the United States of America.

I believe that it was their intent to leave those issues to the STATES and to the LOCAL governments, which is where it belongs. That way if one does not like the way it is done in their area they can relocate to another area where it is more to their liking.

I hold to a STRICT and UNBLEMISHED view of Article I, Section 8. If it isn't SPECIFICALLY in there, the US Congress should not be allowed to legislate or spend money on it. Period. Full Stop.

[/I am sure the SCOTUS is all over butt hurt that you feel some of their decisions have been in error. I know I am moved to tears myself.

When I start concerning myself with the viewpoints of others or their opinions about me and my beliefs; whether they be members of an online messageboard or Justices of the United States Supreme Court; it will be the day that I need to put myself out of my own misery, permanently.

 

[Sail Away]

[That is because Libertarianism is not compatible with the needs of the US today.

I would go along with; That is because Libertarianism is not compatible with the perceived needs of the US today.

It is very obvious that the Republican/Democrat platforms are not compatible with today's needs. This country is in a hierarchical mess. What was the approval rate of congress last month? 13%? How much is deficit spending now? What are levels of confidence in government? But it is the Republican/Democrat platforms that discount anti-authoritarian political philosophy. It is the Republicans/Democrats who would have everything to lose if there were a anti-authoritarian political threat.

There, I used "anti-authoritarian" instead of liberal. No copyright definition needed.

 

[Sail Away]

When I start concerning myself with the viewpoints of others or their opinions about me and my beliefs; whether they be members of an online messageboard or Justices of the United States Supreme Court; it will be the day that I need to put myself out of my own misery, permanently.

No, no I'm not asking you to concerning yourself with anyone's viewpoints. I'm only asking if you believe that if it should the responsibility of government (at any level) to provide for its citizens (at a minimal capacity)?

 

[Anachronism]

No, no I'm not asking you to concerning yourself with anyone's viewpoints. I'm only asking if you believe that if it should the responsibility of government (at any level) to provide for its citizens (at a minimal capacity)?

I think you missed the relevant part of my prior posting. I responded to two posts in it, including your previous one. Here is that relevant part.....

So you believe that that gov should in no way be responsible for it citizens? Not even on the basic level like food or education?

I have never seen ANY evidence that it was the intent of the Founding Fathers for the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to be involved in ANY form of social engineering among the citizens of the United States of America.

I believe that it was their intent to leave those issues to the STATES and to the LOCAL governments, which is where it belongs. That way if one does not like the way it is done in their area they can relocate to another area where it is more to their liking.

I hold to a STRICT and UNBLEMISHED view of Article I, Section 8. If it isn't SPECIFICALLY in there, the US Congress should not be allowed to legislate or spend money on it. Period. Full Stop.

To expound on the topic a little more.... I believe that those issues should be looked at through the lense of the State Constitutions and the Charters of the individual Cities, Towns, and Counties. THAT is where I believe the mandate for the oversight of these issues lies, if at all, in terms of the Government. It most certainly does not lie with the Federal Government. Personally, I believe it falls within the pervue of Private Charitable Organizations like churches, the American Red Cross, etc...