More Strong Evidence for Evolution: Anatomical Vestiges

[jwoodie]

Please explain exactly how one species can reproduce another species. Actual examples would be helpful.

P.S. If you don't know, are you honest enough to admit it?

 

[abu afak]

Please explain exactly how one species can reproduce another species. Actual examples would be helpful.

P.S. If you don't know, are you honest enough to admit it?

Nice attempt at burden shifting which would usually require a highly technical or impossible answer.
But basically, small changes/Subspecies, become large changes over time, Species, due to successful mutation which fits better in that environment.
ie, Human Races/Subspsecies have developed many different Traits because of Separate geographical evolution. Given enough time and separate mutations/adaptations, they could become different Species.
ie, Gorillas (and chimps) have TWO species, not one. Not even all 'like' (kweationist term) creatures are the same specie.

Or Try:

Some More Observed Speciation Events
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/selopedpeciation

Or one of my favorites in making this understandable...
Pygmy Mammoths, a separate Specie, evolved from Mammoths in just 30,000 years from Island Isolation.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy_mammoth#Evolution
Pygmy mammoth - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Do we have pictures of it happening, of course not, (Kweationists disingenuously try this burden that is much longer than human lifetimes) but it's obvious what did happen.
And of course
1. we have intermediate fossils/species for ALL extant ones.
2. None arose without them and none arose with radically different DNA. (we have 98.6% same as chimps)
3. Many/Most have anatomical Vestiges of predecessors as yet more evidence. (see the OP)
They/WE are NOT clean breaks/immaculate creations, they are almost all genetically gradual and vestigal.
`

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[rdean]

Primates and humans are very common. Theres about 97.8% genome difference. The difference includes less hair, smaller teeth/bones/muscles, and surprisingly the smallest difference is in the brain. Apes cannot "question things" like humans can. The power of "why" help creat religion and science to explain the unexplainable in the world around us. Such as earthquakes,volcanic eruptions, or hurricanes were seen as signs from gods and their displeasure of the humans. Or the forces unseen such as gravity, which in turn we learned to over come it through mathematics and science

Apes can't question things like humans can?

 

[Derideo_Te]

If by evolution, you are suggesting the means by which man became man, then you are batting at the wind. There is no proof. If; however, you are suggesting that selected traits can be bred, then of course this is very true. One can breed tallness, shortness, build, hair and skin color. It might also be possible to breed an intellectual or an idiot. However, I you treat a smart child like a moron --- there is a real chance he will not reach his or her fullest potential.

Breeding is evolution!

Breeding is manipulation. However, a plant is a plant, a moth is a moth, a fruit fly remains a fruit fly, and bacteria stays bacteria. Each kind is unique and bound by God.

Yes, the manipulation of evolution to achieve a desired result.

The grains we eat today did not occur naturally in the wild. We have manipulated evolution to suit ourselves. Our dogs are no longer wild wolves.

We were once tree dwellers. Prior to that we had tails. What happened to our tails that you still see on monkeys in the trees? We have vestiges of that tail and some babies are still born with tails.

 

[rdean]

Primates and humans are very common. Theres about 97.8% genome difference. The difference includes less hair, smaller teeth/bones/muscles, and surprisingly the smallest difference is in the brain. Apes cannot "question things" like humans can. The power of "why" help creat religion and science to explain the unexplainable in the world around us. Such as earthquakes,volcanic eruptions, or hurricanes were seen as signs from gods and their displeasure of the humans. Or the forces unseen such as gravity, which in turn we learned to over come it through mathematics and science

Religion was created. Science was discovered. Religion explains nothing. It's only "tells".

 

[pauls]

Evolution is merely the tool for creation. Viruses have evolved into bacteria - a change in species that man has witnessed. It can be seen in the genetics of birds that they were once reptiles and by turning on and off the genes present in birds they can be returned to a reptile. Science has done some of this by manipulating the genes of a chicken to return the feathers to scales and to return the beak to a mouth with teeth. It would be possible to take a chicken egg and by turning on and off certain genes have a reptile hatch from the egg. If they did this to a male and female chicken and bred them the offspring would be reptiles.

Any first year biology student has seen evolution in viruses and bacteria. There is even a recorded history of the genetic change that causes sickle cell anemia. The biological change makes a person immune to sleeping sickness when only one gene is affected. When a person inherits one gene from each parent then they develop sickle cell anemia. The evolution has been tracked back to the original people who had the mutation. It was an evolutionary event in humans.

I see no religious conflict in accepting evolution. It is God's way of continuing creation.

 

[abu afak]

Evolution is merely the tool for creation. ....

I see no religious conflict in accepting evolution. It is God's way of continuing creation.

Except you have NO evidence of any god.
ZERO.

You can't disingenuously Piggy Back on Real facts as the work of/Just say, it's your wittle god/dog.

And of course, many peoples/religions (other voodoo-ers) have many different gods with Contradictory creation MYTHS.
`

 

[pauls]

You are absolutely right. I have no evidence of God. That is where my faith comes in. science requires evidence, documentation, experiment, and finally proof. I have no problem accepting scientific facts and I can keep my faith at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. One can have faith in God and believe the science. No problem.

 

[abu afak]

You are absolutely right. I have no evidence of God. That is where my faith comes in. science requires evidence, documentation, experiment, and finally proof. I have no problem accepting scientific facts and I can keep my faith at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive. One can have faith in God and believe the science. No problem.

Then you have No business in THIS section.
You can post your [BASELESS] faith in any other UNRELATED section.

You could go to any section and say "God did it"/God's responsible for....." (ie, Recession)
and you'd also be WASTING everyone's time with your PISS ANT prosletyzing.

There's no god/dog in this section.
The contradiction Only arises when, in FACT, Other believers DO deny evolution, or, as you, Claim there is a god/Creator when there is NO evidence of such.


`

 

[pauls]

You don't have to believe in God. I am not trying to convert you. I am simply agreeing that evolution is a fact. The only theory involved is the manner (or manners) in which it works. Those are not yet completely understood.

I am stating that not all people of faith hold the point of view that evolution is a fallacy. There are many who recognize it, just as you do.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Someone mentioned wolves evolving into dogs. That's called horizontal evolution. A dog can still breed with a wolf. Conversely, vertical evolution would describe the canine origins of sea lions.

Wisdom teeth? 100,000 years ago we were hunter gatherers. As we cooked more of our food, our jaws became shorter and shorter until the wisdom teeth no longer fit. That's horizontal evolution, like wolf morphology changing radically to the point where a bulldog has breathing problems.

Confirmation bias has led us to conclude that a lot of our morphology is vestigial. Tonsils actually have a purpose.

"When the human genome was decoded a decade ago, there seemed to be surprisingly few of these genes in our make-up: just over 20,000. (Most scientists had expected around 100,000.)
That represents around two per cent of our total complement of DNA. The rest was simply labelled 'junk DNA' and was assumed to have accumulated by accident during the evolution of our species. But now the Encode project has shown that much of this junk DNA actually plays a key role inside the human body. The Encode scientists have found that large stretches of junk DNA play an active role by regulating those 20,000-odd genes and controlling how they make proteins."

Another interesting recent discovery is the surprisingly weak link between environmental causes and punctuated evolution. Some species exhibit stability through radical climate changes or resource availability. Others exhibit punctuated evolution for no apparent cause whatsoever. I'm referring to the chaos theory of evolution, or, as I like to call it, Destiny.
The chaos theory of evolution - life - 18 October 2010 - New Scientist

 

[abu afak]

Have you ever looked at the complexity exhibited in minerals? As far as understanding what science is, I have finished courses in Geology, Chemistry, Biology, and Physics. And, yes, natural laws can and has created some very complex systems.

Good point.
And some are so complex, there are self-replicating Non-living molecules.
+

 

[HenryBHough]

Which did God invent first?

Reproduction via sex?

The orgasm?

 

[abu afak]

We're primates that developed from a common ancestor 5-7 million years ago that yes was an ape.

That is a fact....The evidence is very strong.

And yet absolutely NO evidence other then this made up story that a mammal has EVER evolved into 2 distinct species before or after.,

That's laughably False.
We obviously don't have videotape, but we have extensive fossil and DNA Evidence.
We have One fused Chromosome as all that separates us from Great Apes, and our, and most animal species having Useless anatomical vestiges of our evolutionary ancestors. Not 'Immaculate' or 'ID,' but Messy Mutation.
`

 

[abu afak]

LOL. The so called expert is using circular logic. There is no common ancestor because monkeys and humans cannot mate.
We do not observe any common ancestor today.

Let's save some time James Bond you JERK.
Rather than start a Duplicate thread, I respond with my OP and other info throughout.


Another Evidence of Evolution.
Just part of an Overwhelming body of such.
One rarely mentioned but very telling.
Life can be traced to a continuum, with many creatures, including us, having anatomical vestiges of our evolutionary ancestors.
An 'immaculate creation' event wouldn't leave useless organs/etc.

Heavily Edited incl Numerous illustrations within as well as references deleted for brevity.

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 2
Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.
Prediction 2.1: Anatomical vestiges

Some of the most renowned Evidence for evolution are the various nonfunctional or rudimentary vestigial characters, Both Anatomical and Molecular, that are found throughout biology. A vestige is defined, independently of evolutionary theory, as a reduced and rudimentary structure compared to the same complex structure in other organisms. Vestigial characters, if functional, perform relatively simple, minor, or inessential functions using structures that were clearly designed for other complex purposes. Though many vestigial organs have no function, complete non-functionality is not a requirement for vestigiality...
[.......]
Geoffroy was at a loss for why exactly nature "always leaves vestiges of an organ", yet he could not deny his empirical observations. Ten years later, Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829) identified several vestigial structures in his Zoological Philosophy
[.......]...these "Hypocritical" structures profess something that they do Not do—they clearly appear designed for a certain function which they do Not perform. However, Common Descent provides a scientific explanation for these peculiar structures. Existing species have different structures and perform different functions. If all living organisms descended from a common ancestor, then both functions and structures necessarily have been gained and lost in each lineage during macroevolutionary history. Therefore, from Common Descent and the constraint of gradualism, we predict that many organisms should retain vestigial structures as structural remnants of lost functions. Note that the exact evolutionary mechanism which created a vestigial structure is irrelevant as long as the mechanism is a gradual one.

Confirmation:
There are Many examples of rudimentary and Nonfunctional vestigial characters carried by organisms, and these can very often be explained in terms of evolutionary histories. For example, from independent phylogenetic evidence, snakes are known to be the descendants of four-legged reptiles. Most Pythons (which are legless snakes) carry Vestigial Pelvises hidden beneath their skin.. The Vestigial pelvis in Pythons is Not attached to vertebrae (as is the normal case in most vertebrates), and it simply floats in the abdominal cavity. Some lizards carry rudimentary, Vestigial Legs underneath their skin, undetectable from the outside...
Many cave dwelling animals, such as the fish Astyanax mexicanus (the Mexican tetra) and the salamander species Typhlotriton spelaeus and Proteus anguinus, are blind yet have rudimentary, Vestigial eyes....
[.......]
The ancestors of Humans are known to have been herbivorous, and molar teeth are required for chewing and grinding plant material. Over 90% of all adult humans develop third molars (otherwise known as Wisdom Teeth).
Usually these teeth never erupt from the gums, and in one Third of all individuals they are Malformed and Impacted [*].
These Useless teeth can cause significant pain, increased risk for injury, and may result in illness and even death [*]

Another Vestige of our herbivorous ancestry is the vermiform appendix. While this intestinal structure may retain a function of some sort, perhaps in the development of the immune system, it is a rudimentary version of the much larger caecum that is essential for digestion of plants in other mammals..."

Yet another human Vestigial structure is the coccyx, the four fused caudal vertebrae found at the base of the spine, exactly where most mammals and many other primates have external Tails protruding from the back. Humans and other apes are some of the only vertebrates that lack an external tail as an adult. The coccyx is a developmental Remnant of the embryonic tail that forms in humans and then is degraded and eaten by our immune system ... Our internal tail is UNnecessary for sitting, walking, and elimination (all of which are functions attributed to the coccyx by many anti-evolutionists). The caudal vertebrae of the coccyx can cause extreme and unnecessary chronic pain in some unfortunate people, a condition called coccydynia. The entire coccyx can be surgically removed without any ill effects (besides surgical complications)...""
[.......]

How many Millions of H sapiens and immediate predecessors, suffered and died from Wisdom Teeth impaction/infection?.
Were it not for Modern dentistry in the last 100 years (yes, even after Jesus), humans who had these impacted/infected Wisdom teeth (most) would have slowly died out and the specie would have been gradually purged/adapted/Evolved eventually as in all traits of all animals.
Everything that ever lived was, and is, 'intermediate' and constantly Evolving.
`​

 

[james bond]

LOL. The so called expert is using circular logic. There is no common ancestor because monkeys and humans cannot mate.
We do not observe any common ancestor today.

Let's save some tom e James Bond you JERK.


Another Evidence of Evolution.
Just part of an Overwhelming body of such.
One rarely mentioned but very telling.
Life can be traced to a continuum, with many creatures, including us, having anatomical vestiges of our evolutionary ancestors.
An 'immaculate creation' event wouldn't leave useless organs/etc.

Heavily Edited incl Numerous illustrations within as well as references deleted for brevity.

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 2
Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.
Prediction 2.1: Anatomical vestiges

Some of the most renowned Evidence for evolution are the various nonfunctional or rudimentary vestigial characters, Both Anatomical and Molecular, that are found throughout biology. A vestige is defined, independently of evolutionary theory, as a reduced and rudimentary structure compared to the same complex structure in other organisms. Vestigial characters, if functional, perform relatively simple, minor, or inessential functions using structures that were clearly designed for other complex purposes. Though many vestigial organs have no function, complete non-functionality is not a requirement for vestigiality...
[.......]
Geoffroy was at a loss for why exactly nature "always leaves vestiges of an organ", yet he could not deny his empirical observations. Ten years later, Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (1744-1829) identified several vestigial structures in his Zoological Philosophy
[.......]...these "Hypocritical" structures profess something that they do Not do—they clearly appear designed for a certain function which they do Not perform. However, Common Descent provides a scientific explanation for these peculiar structures. Existing species have different structures and perform different functions. If all living organisms descended from a common ancestor, then both functions and structures necessarily have been gained and lost in each lineage during macroevolutionary history. Therefore, from Common Descent and the constraint of gradualism, we predict that many organisms should retain vestigial structures as structural remnants of lost functions. Note that the exact evolutionary mechanism which created a vestigial structure is irrelevant as long as the mechanism is a gradual one.

Confirmation:
There are Many examples of rudimentary and Nonfunctional vestigial characters carried by organisms, and these can very often be explained in terms of evolutionary histories. For example, from independent phylogenetic evidence, snakes are known to be the descendants of four-legged reptiles. Most Pythons (which are legless snakes) carry Vestigial Pelvises hidden beneath their skin.. The Vestigial pelvis in Pythons is Not attached to vertebrae (as is the normal case in most vertebrates), and it simply floats in the abdominal cavity. Some lizards carry rudimentary, Vestigial Legs underneath their skin, undetectable from the outside...
Many cave dwelling animals, such as the fish Astyanax mexicanus (the Mexican tetra) and the salamander species Typhlotriton spelaeus and Proteus anguinus, are blind yet have rudimentary, Vestigial eyes....
[.......]
The ancestors of Humans are known to have been herbivorous, and molar teeth are required for chewing and grinding plant material. Over 90% of all adult humans develop third molars (otherwise known as Wisdom Teeth).
Usually these teeth never erupt from the gums, and in one Third of all individuals they are Malformed and Impacted [*]. These Useless teeth can cause significant pain, increased risk for injury, and may result in illness and even death [*]

Another Vestige of our herbivorous ancestry is the vermiform appendix. While this intestinal structure may retain a function of some sort, perhaps in the development of the immune system, it is a rudimentary version of the much larger caecum that is essential for digestion of plants in other mammals..."

Yet another human Vestigial structure is the coccyx, the four fused caudal vertebrae found at the base of the spine, exactly where most mammals and many other primates have external Tails protruding from the back. Humans and other apes are some of the only vertebrates that lack an external tail as an adult. The coccyx is a developmental Remnant of the embryonic tail that forms in humans and then is degraded and eaten by our immune system ... Our internal tail is UNnecessary for sitting, walking, and elimination (all of which are functions attributed to the coccyx by many anti-evolutionists). The caudal vertebrae of the coccyx can cause extreme and unnecessary chronic pain in some unfortunate people, a condition called coccydynia. The entire coccyx can be surgically removed without any ill effects (besides surgical complications)...""
[.......]

How many Millions of H sapiens and immediate predecessors, suffered and died from Wisdom Teeth impaction/infection?.
Were it not for Modern dentistry in the last 100 years (yes, even after Jesus), humans who had these impacted/infected Wisdom teeth (most) would have slowly died out and the specie would have been gradually purged/adapted/Evolved eventually as in all traits of all animals.
Everything that ever lived was, and is, 'intermediate' and constantly Evolving.
`​

. Vestigial organs has pretty much been debunked by modern medicine.

Notice all your explanations are traced back to evolutionary thinking which is usually wrong. It's also more circular reasoning.

Wisdom teeth impaction has been traced back to diet. It is a recent phenomenon, having its beginnings around the Industrial Revolution in the 1700–1800s. They didn't have any problems with wisdom teeth because their diet was more coarse. This wore down their crown, i.e. top of their teeth, and consequently provided more space for the wisdom teeth. The wearing down of the crown is called attrition and if it progresses enough, it creates more space in the dental arch allowing for the wisdom teeth. We even see that today with Nigerians who have a more fibrous diet than their urban counterparts and attrition. This causes more space in their arch and lesser wisdom impaction. The change to lower fiber diet also reduced the need for a larger cecum and it became unnecessary.

 

[abu afak]

. Vestigial organs has pretty much been debunked by modern medicine.

No itr hasn't.
And it certainly hasn't in hundreds of cases well beyond humans as those I posted above.
Only one of which you Goofilly to attribute to the Industrial revolution!

Notice all your explanations are traced back to evolutionary thinking which is usually wrong. It's also more circular reasoning....

No "Evolutionary thinking" is NOT "usually wrong" and you have NOT demonstrated such.
(or won your Evangelical Loon Nobel Prize for doing so)
And it's certainly worse than circular reasoning to say it's wrong.

You never last more than a post or two with me.
(the last try 50 pages ago in the Monkey string)

Your debate content is wrong, worse, you're Disingenuous/Dishonest.

Now go back to Lying for Jesus (your life) with someone else kweationist klown.
`

 

[Confounding]

Abu, you should know that no amount of evidence is going to convince these retards that God didn't poof humanity into existence. It's not about an evidence threshold that needs to be met in their minds. They will just never accept it.

 

[james bond]

. Vestigial organs has pretty much been debunked by modern medicine.

No itr hasn't.
And it certainly hasn't in hundreds of cases well beyond humans as those I posted above.
Only one of which you Goofilly to attribute to the Industrial revolution!

Notice all your explanations are traced back to evolutionary thinking which is usually wrong. It's also more circular reasoning....

No "Evolutionary thinking" is NOT "usually wrong" and you have NOT demonstrated such.
(or won your Evangelical Loon Nobel Prize for doing so)
And it's certainly worse than circular reasoning to say it's wrong.

You never last more than a post or two with me.
(the last try 50 pages ago in the Monkey string)

Your debate content is wrong, worse, you're Disingenuous/Dishonest.

Now go back to Lying for Jesus (your life) with someone else kweationist klown.
`

I just smacked you and your science to oblivion using observational science while you continue to hold your silly mythological beliefs based on faith. It's a done deal like I said.

I can't help it if you don't understand the scientific method. You cannot explain how wisdom teeth were not impacted in the past. People had larger jaws due to the fibrous and coarser foods they ate. Now, you're using ad hominem attacks cause I whipped your dumb butt silly.

There's a reason why dieticians advocate eating more fiber because it's a healthier diet. Today, we eat too much sugar and processed foods that have screwed our bodies up. Can you get that through your thick skull? You probably think GMO foods are safe? Ha ha.

 

[james bond]

Abu, you should know that no amount of evidence is going to convince these retards that God didn't poof humanity into existence. It's not about an evidence threshold that needs to be met in their minds. They will just never accept it.

I just used science not religion you dumb fuckasaurus. Only a retard such as you can't tell between the science and religion forums ha ha.