Moderate Muslims are the problem

[LilOlLady]

In addition to being a rhetorical fallacy, the notion that members of a given religious group are responsible for the actions of a criminal minority is repugnant to our Constitutional tenet of religious tolerance and judicial doctrine of individual responsibility.

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

and Christians don't beat their wives and kids and kill them?

 

[bodecea]

In addition to being a rhetorical fallacy, the notion that members of a given religious group are responsible for the actions of a criminal minority is repugnant to our Constitutional tenet of religious tolerance and judicial doctrine of individual responsibility.

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

They are examples of the radical christian groups that Jones was referring to.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Islam has nothing to do with radical Muslim's beliefs .

based on what authoritative scripture you have read?

 

[LilOlLady]

You know both of those groups consider themselves Christians, right?

So you just said all Christians are NAZIs and Klansmen

I said nothing of the sort.

And just made Clayton's point.


Ya fuckin' retard

You are obviously too stupid to get my point.

You aren't worth debating because you're a retard.

Nothing but a retard would call someone else a retard.

 

[bripat9643]

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

Let's conduct an experiment.

Have the US dissolve the Jewish State and return Palestine to its lawful owners, get the fuck out of Iraq and the AFPak region. Apologize for the transgressions, Pay reparations. Then observe.

.

There is no such place as "Palestine," and the self labeled "Palestinians" are not the "rightful owners" of the territory of Israel.

Instead, why don't we just send all the so-called "Palestinians" back to Jordan where they came from?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

In addition to being a rhetorical fallacy, the notion that members of a given religious group are responsible for the actions of a criminal minority is repugnant to our Constitutional tenet of religious tolerance and judicial doctrine of individual responsibility.

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

They are examples of the radical christian groups that Jones was referring to.

And there we have you defending Islam by pointing the finger at nazis.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/3547494-post1926.html

 

[JBeukema]

What's a "moderate muslim"? Is that the kind of muslim who doesn't blow anyone up but beats his wife according to the Koran?

Koran do not teach Muslims to beat their wives.

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.​

Quran 4:34, "Women,"

According to the bible christians can do all kinds of atrocities

Tu quoque is no defense

 

[bripat9643]

Nothing but a retard would call someone else a retard.

You just called yourself a retard, retard.

 

[bripat9643]

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

They are examples of the radical christian groups that Jones was referring to.

The Nazi party is no more a "christian group" than the Democrat Party.

 

[JBeukema]

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

They are examples of the radical christian groups that Jones was referring to.

The Nazi party is no more a "christian group" than the Democrat Party.

And others would say Al Queada is no more a Muslim group than log cabin republicans.

 

[bripat9643]

The Nazi party is no more a "christian group" than the Democrat Party.

And others would say Al Queada is no more a Muslim group than log cabin republicans.

Perhaps, but those people are all imbeciles.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

What's a "moderate muslim"? Is that the kind of muslim who doesn't blow anyone up but beats his wife according to the Koran?

Koran do not teach Muslims to beat their wives.

really?

Six translations of Qur'an 4:34:

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

 

[Contumacious]

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

Let's conduct an experiment.

Have the US dissolve the Jewish State and return Palestine to its lawful owners, get the fuck out of Iraq and the AFPak region. Apologize for the transgressions, Pay reparations. Then observe.

.

There is no such place as "Palestine," and the self labeled "Palestinians" are not the "rightful owners" of the territory of Israel.

Instead, why don't we just send all the so-called "Palestinians" back to Jordan where they came from?

"Millions of innocent children are being killed as I speak. They are being killed in Iraq without committing any sins, and we don't hear condemnation or a fatwa (religious decree) from the rulers. In these days, Israeli tanks infest Palestine — in Jenin, Ramallah, Rafah, Beit Jalla, and other places in the land of Islam, and we
don't hear anyone raising his voice or moving a limb."

Osama Ben Laden
09/11 Speech



.

 

[LilOlLady]

This is a no getter conversation. Muslim and Christian are more alike than different. Muhammed got much of if teachings form Christianity.


Defending Islam - Allegation: Prophet Muhammad's (SAW) teachings coming from Judeo-Christian Influence

The Prophet Muhammad and Earlier Religions, Especially Judaism and Christianity
By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat

(January 2003

It is often said that Islam is an off-shoot of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Sometimes it is even said that Islam is a Judeo-Christian heresy. Another form of this type of view attacks the very person of the Prophet of Islam. It is alleged that the Prophet Muhammad took most of his teachings from the Bible or from other Jewish/Christian sources. In particular, he borrowed from the Jews the central belief of his teaching – a strict monotheism and rejection of idol worship. The implication is that if most of what the Prophet taught, including the central proclamation of Islam, was found in earlier Judeo-Christian tradition, his teachings could not be from direct divine revelation. The fact that Qur`anic versions of older Jewish or Christian traditions can often have radically different elements is attributed to ignorance or misunderstanding or distortion of earlier sources on the part of the Prophet Muhammad or his “informers

The Prophet Muhammad and Earlier Religions, Especially Judaism and Christianity

 

[Ernie S.]

Moderate Muslims are the problem

The error you and the cited author make is assuming Muslims are somehow responsible for the actions of criminals who happen to be Muslim; it’s as idiotic as saying Christians are somehow responsible for Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols, or neo-Nazis, the KKK, or militia groups.

Again: all terrorists are criminals – period; their religion is incidental and irrelevant.

WRONG, Mr. Jones. "Timothy McVeigh or Terry Nichols, or neo-Nazis, the KKK, or militia groups" do or did not act in the name of Christianity. They may have been Christians, but they didn't hide behind their religion or seek to use it to justify their actions. (with the possible exception of the KKK)

 

[JBeukema]

This is a no getter conversation. Muslim and Christian are more alike than different. Muhammed got much of if teachings form Christianity.

Read the holy books. Islam is nearer to traditional Judaism than to Christianity. Christianity radically changed the nature of God, declared God's law and commandments null, void, and flawed, ans tried to start over while clinging to just enough of the old faith to retain some sense of validity and legitimacy. Islam, on the other hand, was simply the natural evolution of Judaism as two other prophets (Jesus and Muhammad) and their revelations got added to those past.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

This is a no getter conversation. Muslim and Christian are more alike than different. Muhammed got much of if teachings form Christianity.


Defending Islam - Allegation: Prophet Muhammad's (SAW) teachings coming from Judeo-Christian Influence

The Prophet Muhammad and Earlier Religions, Especially Judaism and Christianity
By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat

(January 2003

It is often said that Islam is an off-shoot of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Sometimes it is even said that Islam is a Judeo-Christian heresy. Another form of this type of view attacks the very person of the Prophet of Islam. It is alleged that the Prophet Muhammad took most of his teachings from the Bible or from other Jewish/Christian sources. In particular, he borrowed from the Jews the central belief of his teaching – a strict monotheism and rejection of idol worship. The implication is that if most of what the Prophet taught, including the central proclamation of Islam, was found in earlier Judeo-Christian tradition, his teachings could not be from direct divine revelation. The fact that Qur`anic versions of older Jewish or Christian traditions can often have radically different elements is attributed to ignorance or misunderstanding or distortion of earlier sources on the part of the Prophet Muhammad or his “informers

The Prophet Muhammad and Earlier Religions, Especially Judaism and Christianity

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Gairdner/rebuke/rebuke_of_islam.pdf

Murder theft rape and terrorism are not condoned to further "Christianity "
They are acts of piety in Islam.

Something you will not read
written by a former muslim

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/kasem/quran_origin.htm

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A well thought out and well written argument about why Islam does not need more moderate Muslims.

"Moderate" Muslims are part of the problem. As Martin Luther King Jr. taught many white Americans, in times of moral crisis, moderation cements the status quo. Today, what Islam needs is not more "moderates" but more self-conscious "reformists." It is reformists who will bring to my faith the debate, dissent and reinterpretation that have carried Judaism and Christianity into the modern world.

My favorite quote, and what I keep trying to tell all the people that defend Islam unconditionally.

t is time for those who love liberal democracy to join hands with Islam's reformists. Here is a clue to who's who: Moderate Muslims denounce violence committed in the name of Islam but insist that religion has nothing to do with it; reformist Muslims, by contrast, not only deplore Islamist violence but admit that our religion is used to incite it.

Islam Needs Reformists, Not 'Moderates' - WSJ.com


I fully expect the knee jerk Left to not only accuse me of Islamaphobia, but to ignore the fact that the guy who wrote this is a Muslim. This is the kind of Muslim I support, not the extremists or the moderates. Hopefully a few people will read this and think for themselves.

Islam has nothing to do with radical Muslim's beliefs any more than Christianity has nothing to do with radical Christian Rev Phelps. Radical christians do all kinds of atrocities in the name of religion and is false beliefs and doctrine. Radical Muslims had twisted the Koran to excuse their radical behavior same as radical christians.

Is that true?

Radical Christian Rev Phelps teaches from the same Bible as everyone else. No only that, most of what he says was considered mainstream not that long ago. Does that mean that radical Muslims have more in common with everyday Muslims than you want to admit?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In addition to being a rhetorical fallacy, the notion that members of a given religious group are responsible for the actions of a criminal minority is repugnant to our Constitutional tenet of religious tolerance and judicial doctrine of individual responsibility.

So Nazis and the KKK are really nice people. It was just a few bad apples who made all the trouble, right?

Let's conduct an experiment.

Have the US dissolve the Jewish State and return Palestine to its lawful owners, get the fuck out of Iraq and the AFPak region. Apologize for the transgressions, Pay reparations. Then observe.

.

And if that results in a jihad against us because they perceive us as weak will you admit you were wrong before they behead you?

 

[auditor0007]

A well thought out and well written argument about why Islam does not need more moderate Muslims.

"Moderate" Muslims are part of the problem. As Martin Luther King Jr. taught many white Americans, in times of moral crisis, moderation cements the status quo. Today, what Islam needs is not more "moderates" but more self-conscious "reformists." It is reformists who will bring to my faith the debate, dissent and reinterpretation that have carried Judaism and Christianity into the modern world.

Moderate Muslims, he observes, are so consumed with Western imperialism that they have distracted themselves from dealing with the imperialists inside Islam—Muslims who dominate, censor, injure and murder fellow Muslims. Bin Laden and his disciples epitomize this crowd. But you do not have to be murderous to be an obstacle to reform. I will never forget the Muslim man in New Jersey who flaunted his moderate credentials by leading an interfaith dialogue group, yet who, behind closed doors, revealed a purist's insularity. On the letterhead of his interfaith initiative, he presented me with a list of phrases and paragraphs to be banned from my 2004 book, "The Trouble with Islam Today." "You want my publishers to edit out these thoughts?" I asked, incredulously.
"Oh, yes," he confirmed. "Otherwise, you're like a fascist."

My favorite quote, and what I keep trying to tell all the people that defend Islam unconditionally.

t is time for those who love liberal democracy to join hands with Islam's reformists. Here is a clue to who's who: Moderate Muslims denounce violence committed in the name of Islam but insist that religion has nothing to do with it; reformist Muslims, by contrast, not only deplore Islamist violence but admit that our religion is used to incite it.

Islam Needs Reformists, Not 'Moderates' - WSJ.com


I fully expect the knee jerk Left to not only accuse me of Islamaphobia, but to ignore the fact that the guy who wrote this is a Muslim. This is the kind of Muslim I support, not the extremists or the moderates. Hopefully a few people will read this and think for themselves.

Well, I am no conservative, at least I wouldn't be considered one here, but I wouldn't consider myself extremely liberal either, only on certain issues. I agree with you. By not standing up to the radicals in Islam, the moderates are enabling them. And that comes down to the basic idea that the end goal of converting everyone to Islam supersedes the how to get it done. On top of that, and I don't know exactly where this comes from, Muslims will protect other Muslims regardless of what they may have done, so long as it wasn't done against other Muslims.

Muslims need to bring Islam into the 21st century if they want to avoid long term conflicts and possibly worse down the road. This will become ever so more evident as Muslim numbers approach 50% or more throughout Europe within the next few generations.