Michael Moore - No favors!

[CommonSensor]

As I recall Moore makes few "accusations"; pretty much he asks questions and lets people respond. Does he cherry pick who he interivews? Of course, but he does give the other side an opportunity to respond. Is he always fair? Nope, I felt bad for 'Moses' when he cornered him, but CH got what he deserved (IMHO).
I disagree that he projects himself as an expert (see Limbaugh for one who does), nor does he mistate facts or use unsound reasoning (whatever that means) - for an emotional argument listen to Hannity or Beck, the place where hysteria abounds.

Well, you're certainly entitled to listen to whoever you want. You sound like an intelligent person, and please understand I believe in many of the same principles as he does. I'm just very frustrated that people are parrots. They hear and "regurgitate" this kind of reasoning, without understanding what they're talking about.

You say he's not accusing anyone, but I totally disagree. He most certainly does accuse "wall street" (a bunch of anyones) of their corruption and bribery, and blames "capitalism" the legal system for the woes of the country (referencing last night's LKL show). You may not agree, and that's fine.

-sensored

 

[CommonSensor]

In my view, it's not the "bad outcomes" that he illustrates and tries to explain (because we all see the "effects"). It's the conclusions he reaches, such as blaming capitalism (when directly asked by LK if it was the cause of the problems in our society), and says things like "come on, we're in the 21st century now", implying that we should abandon capitalism because it's the "old way that didn't work" that bothers me. The age of a system has little to do with it's effectiveness. The "proof" is in the pudding so-to-speak, and capitalism (the economic system not the legal system), is directly responsible for this country becoming the most productive and wealthiest nation on earth.

The problem as I see it is, we've become too committed to protecting the "concepts" of capitalism, at the expense of being practical. We're not willing to consider the possibility that, no matter how good a system is, it's probably not the best solution for "everything". I maintain that health care is ONE of those situations where it has not worked, and is unlikely to ever work, because demand will always be constant, no matter what happens to price. The observation that it has failed goes back to the early 20th century, so we have much evidence to back that up.

And we DO HAVE models that, although not perfect, have done a much better job of managing society's needs. It's simply "more practical", and we don't NEED to be "blindly devoted" to the idea that capitalism solves everything.

m (other) 2c

-sensored

So, I don't feel he's doing much to help the situation by perpetuating ignorance.

-s

 

[rdean]

So I go to this right wing media site and they have a clip of Michael Moore. They say terrible things about him and then you listen to the clip of him on Jay Leno. He says there is nothing wrong with someone making shoes, starting a business, becoming successful. What is bad is people that figure out ways to just rip people off. Not sure how Republicans can defend that.

Media Embrace Millionaire Moore's Vendetta against Capitalism

Let's take a look at Cigna, health-care company. Remember this company makes nothing. They are only the middleman. The 120 million dollar CED package is enough to pay the premiums for tens of thousands of people. One salary. Two corporate jets at more than 68 million.

These are the excesses that Michael Moore is against. I can't believe that Republicans defend this ripoff as "capitalism". At least making something and selling it is cool, but just skimming off insurance policies? That's not capitalism, it's a scam.

 

[Christopher]

I don't believe he is sincere in his efforts. How can he be, when he knowingly provides inaccuracies as truth.

 

[rdean]

I don't believe he is sincere in his efforts. How can he be, when he knowingly provides inaccuracies as truth.

I've only seen 9/11. I thought he lied about the Bush administration helping the Bin Laden family get out of the country without any of them being interviewed by the FBI. I was positive that it couldn't be true. Then a Senate report came out saying pretty much the same thing. I posted a link to it once before so I know people here have read it.

Then the reports started coming out about how military benefits were cut. Dependents benefits cut. Of soldiers being sent off with old and rusty equipment. Of soldiers returning to moldy hospitals.

I haven't seen the Cuba health care documentary, but I think Castro is an odious man. Moore could have done the same documentary without giving Castro a platform

 

[Old Rocks]

Percieved accuracy often depends on a person's point of view. For someone committed to the precepts of socialism, speaking of the good of capitalism is a lie. For someone that is a libertarian capitalist, talking of the good points of socialism is heresy. For those of us that wish to achieve certain goals regarding the lives and fortunes of ourselves and our fellow citizens, these are just social tools, to be used where appropriate. And we deeply offend both camps, and do not give a damn about their objections.

 

[Old Rocks]

I don't believe he is sincere in his efforts. How can he be, when he knowingly provides inaccuracies as truth.

I've only seen 9/11. I thought he lied about the Bush administration helping the Bin Laden family get out of the country without any of them being interviewed by the FBI. I was positive that it couldn't be true. Then a Senate report came out saying pretty much the same thing. I posted a link to it once before so I know people here have read it.

Then the reports started coming out about how military benefits were cut. Dependents benefits cut. Of soldiers being sent off with old and rusty equipment. Of soldiers returning to moldy hospitals.

I haven't seen the Cuba health care documentary, but I think Castro is an odious man. Moore could have done the same documentary without giving Castro a platform

The idea was not that Castro was great, but that a poor country could do better on supplying health care to it's people than the USA. Using Cuba for that, instead of Costa Rica was a purposeful provacation to the right wing. Fun, but not constructive. It would have been better to have used Costa Rica.

 

[rdean]

Percieved accuracy often depends on a person's point of view. For someone committed to the precepts of socialism, speaking of the good of capitalism is a lie. For someone that is a libertarian capitalist, talking of the good points of socialism is heresy. For those of us that wish to achieve certain goals regarding the lives and fortunes of ourselves and our fellow citizens, these are just social tools, to be used where appropriate. And we deeply offend both camps, and do not give a damn about their objections.

Michael Moore is worth more than a 170 million dollars. I hardly believe he is a radical socialist. That doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[CommonSensor]

Percieved accuracy often depends on a person's point of view. For someone committed to the precepts of socialism, speaking of the good of capitalism is a lie. For someone that is a libertarian capitalist, talking of the good points of socialism is heresy. For those of us that wish to achieve certain goals regarding the lives and fortunes of ourselves and our fellow citizens, these are just social tools, to be used where appropriate. And we deeply offend both camps, and do not give a damn about their objections.

Michael Moore is worth more than a 170 million dollars. I hardly believe he is a radical socialist. That doesn't make a lick of sense.

I don't *think* he was talking about MM (specifically). It was a fairly adept statement in my opinion, and puts the "goals" of society ahead of party, system, or any other "mechanism" we use to rule ourselves...but that's just what I read into it.

 

[Diuretic]

One thing for sure, Michael Moore's films are thought provoking. Love them or hate them, the films are topical, speak to issues which divide Americans, and generally spark debate.
Of course they have a point of view, why else make a film, or write a book? Those of you who so harshly criticize Moore are incapable - or so it seems - to offer a counterpoint to his.
And, why is there no list of contemporary films by conservatives willing to offer that point of view? Polemics and art have a long history; maybe those on the left are much more creative and smarter than those on the right!

I think perhaps progressives make good polemicists because they're trying to force change. Conservatives - as opposed to reactionaries - don't have to work as hard, all they need to do is try and stay put and so perhaps polemics aren't their style. Reactionaries on the other hand have some fine polemicists.

 

[veritas]

I've seen all of his films. The latest isn't so much an indictment of capitalism in the regular sense, but corporatism as capitalism, which is bad........the FF thought it was bad. It is bad. It's too big to fail, so big it owns the gov't bad.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

One thing for sure, Michael Moore's films are thought provoking. Love them or hate them, the films are topical, speak to issues which divide Americans, and generally spark debate.
Of course they have a point of view, why else make a film, or write a book? Those of you who so harshly criticize Moore are incapable - or so it seems - to offer a counterpoint to his.
And, why is there no list of contemporary films by conservatives willing to offer that point of view? Polemics and art have a long history; maybe those on the left are much more creative and smarter than those on the right!

That was my point when I started this thread. It's NOT the subject matter he presents (which I agree some of which is thought provoking), but he is SO inaccurate in the way he presents it, that he's "not doing us any favor's" by doing so (the title of the thread).

If you're going to present yourself as an expert on a subject, you better be one. All he does is hurl accusations around, mis-state facts, and use unsound reasoning to arrive at unsound conclusions.

m2c

-sensored

As I recall Moore makes few "accusations"; pretty much he asks questions and lets people respond. Does he cherry pick who he interivews? Of course, but he does give the other side an opportunity to respond. Is he always fair? Nope, I felt bad for 'Moses' when he cornered him, but CH got what he deserved (IMHO).
I disagree that he projects himself as an expert (see Limbaugh for one who does), nor does he mistate facts or use unsound reasoning (whatever that means) - for an emotional argument listen to Hannity or Beck, the place where hysteria abounds.

Remember the senator he interviews on the street in Farenheight 9/11. the one he asks "well why aren't your kids in the war" then the guy just stares at him blankly and Moore cuts to the next scene? Right after the blank stare the senator said "My sons are serving in Iraq right now"

Moore totally cut that statement out and made it look like he had stumped the guy instead. LIke I said he ruins the slivers of truth that may exist with his bogus tactics like that.

 

[Wry Catcher]

That was my point when I started this thread. It's NOT the subject matter he presents (which I agree some of which is thought provoking), but he is SO inaccurate in the way he presents it, that he's "not doing us any favor's" by doing so (the title of the thread).

If you're going to present yourself as an expert on a subject, you better be one. All he does is hurl accusations around, mis-state facts, and use unsound reasoning to arrive at unsound conclusions.

m2c

-sensored

As I recall Moore makes few "accusations"; pretty much he asks questions and lets people respond. Does he cherry pick who he interivews? Of course, but he does give the other side an opportunity to respond. Is he always fair? Nope, I felt bad for 'Moses' when he cornered him, but CH got what he deserved (IMHO).
I disagree that he projects himself as an expert (see Limbaugh for one who does), nor does he mistate facts or use unsound reasoning (whatever that means) - for an emotional argument listen to Hannity or Beck, the place where hysteria abounds.

Remember the senator he interviews on the street in Farenheight 9/11. the one he asks "well why aren't your kids in the war" then the guy just stares at him blankly and Moore cuts to the next scene? Right after the blank stare the senator said "My sons are serving in Iraq right now"

Moore totally cut that statement out and made it look like he had stumped the guy instead. LIke I said he ruins the slivers of truth that may exist with his bogus tactics like that.

If true that is outragious. Of course you forgot to provide a source (credible, please) for this information. I suspect it's a lie, or an urban legend grown from a lie.

 

[veritas]

It wasn't a Senator, and it wasn't his sons, it was his nephews in the military, but not in Iraq.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

As I recall Moore makes few "accusations"; pretty much he asks questions and lets people respond. Does he cherry pick who he interivews? Of course, but he does give the other side an opportunity to respond. Is he always fair? Nope, I felt bad for 'Moses' when he cornered him, but CH got what he deserved (IMHO).
I disagree that he projects himself as an expert (see Limbaugh for one who does), nor does he mistate facts or use unsound reasoning (whatever that means) - for an emotional argument listen to Hannity or Beck, the place where hysteria abounds.

Remember the senator he interviews on the street in Farenheight 9/11. the one he asks "well why aren't your kids in the war" then the guy just stares at him blankly and Moore cuts to the next scene? Right after the blank stare the senator said "My sons are serving in Iraq right now"

Moore totally cut that statement out and made it look like he had stumped the guy instead. LIke I said he ruins the slivers of truth that may exist with his bogus tactics like that.

If true that is outragious. Of course you forgot to provide a source (credible, please) for this information. I suspect it's a lie, or an urban legend grown from a lie.

i was digging around for the youtube....do you remember the senators name? I forgot it and that is what is holding me up from finding it....

 

[rdean]

That was my point when I started this thread. It's NOT the subject matter he presents (which I agree some of which is thought provoking), but he is SO inaccurate in the way he presents it, that he's "not doing us any favor's" by doing so (the title of the thread).

If you're going to present yourself as an expert on a subject, you better be one. All he does is hurl accusations around, mis-state facts, and use unsound reasoning to arrive at unsound conclusions.

m2c

-sensored

As I recall Moore makes few "accusations"; pretty much he asks questions and lets people respond. Does he cherry pick who he interivews? Of course, but he does give the other side an opportunity to respond. Is he always fair? Nope, I felt bad for 'Moses' when he cornered him, but CH got what he deserved (IMHO).
I disagree that he projects himself as an expert (see Limbaugh for one who does), nor does he mistate facts or use unsound reasoning (whatever that means) - for an emotional argument listen to Hannity or Beck, the place where hysteria abounds.

Remember the senator he interviews on the street in Farenheight 9/11. the one he asks "well why aren't your kids in the war" then the guy just stares at him blankly and Moore cuts to the next scene? Right after the blank stare the senator said "My sons are serving in Iraq right now"

Moore totally cut that statement out and made it look like he had stumped the guy instead. LIke I said he ruins the slivers of truth that may exist with his bogus tactics like that.

The "truth" is, with so much material to work with, it wouldn't make any sense to resort to that kind of trickery. Seriously, to say, "Why aren't your sons in Iraq" and then cut out, "But they are" is so stupid. It's a trick that would be found out in a second. I can't believe that even a Republican would believe something so easy to find out. It's just someone trying to discredit MM to someone that can't think for themselves.

Now what about Mitt Romney? When asked why none of his five sons are in Iraq, he said, "They were doing something more important, they were helping get him elected president". No way around that one.

 

[Harry Dresden]

One thing's for sure: Michael Moore spews a lot of crap!

every time he spews.....

 

[rdean]

One thing's for sure: Michael Moore spews a lot of crap!

every time he spews.....

I hate to ask the obvious, but any examples?

Did you know Hawkman is an illegal alien?

 

[Harry Dresden]

One thing for sure, Michael Moore's films are thought provoking. Love them or hate them, the films are topical, speak to issues which divide Americans, and generally spark debate.
Of course they have a point of view, why else make a film, or write a book? Those of you who so harshly criticize Moore are incapable - or so it seems - to offer a counterpoint to his.
And, why is there no list of contemporary films by conservatives willing to offer that point of view? Polemics and art have a long history; maybe those on the left are much more creative and smarter than those on the right!

Larry Elder did a thing countering his Columbine film called(Michael And Me) and wanted to debate him about it on national radio....what do you think Moores reply was?....

 

[Harry Dresden]

One thing for sure, Michael Moore's films are thought provoking. Love them or hate them, the films are topical, speak to issues which divide Americans, and generally spark debate.
Of course they have a point of view, why else make a film, or write a book? Those of you who so harshly criticize Moore are incapable - or so it seems - to offer a counterpoint to his.
And, why is there no list of contemporary films by conservatives willing to offer that point of view? Polemics and art have a long history; maybe those on the left are much more creative and smarter than those on the right!

That was my point when I started this thread. It's NOT the subject matter he presents (which I agree some of which is thought provoking), but he is SO inaccurate in the way he presents it, that he's "not doing us any favor's" by doing so (the title of the thread).

If you're going to present yourself as an expert on a subject, you better be one. All he does is hurl accusations around, mis-state facts, and use unsound reasoning to arrive at unsound conclusions.

m2c

-sensored

well said.....and that is Moores problem....is the bullshit piled on a legitimate topic...bowling for Columbine was so one sided i fell over....